Socratic Method a Good Way to "Test the Spirits"?

[Peter J Barban]

Spockrates, if you are misunderstood, surely it is due to your methods. You could make yourself better understood if you spoke your beliefs plainly.

I have to agree with shadowhunter. Your roleplaying leads me to frustration. You appear to be an atheist pretending at being a Christian, what with your promotion of amoral methods to judge Biblical teaching.

Could you just come out and clarify your position on Jesus Christ and the Bible (since the Bible is a major focus of this thread)?

 

[spockrates]

but even in trying to convince ourselves we discover a tool of satan. For most "thinkers" there cannot be such a thing as an absolute truth for if there is, there is nothing more to consider or think about or convince even ourselves us. However, in God we find that there are absolutes, absolutes that we should cling to with all that we are even if we don't understand them or are not able to reason them out or convince ourselves of them. This is the downfall of philosophy and every one of man's "sciences" has a flaw that can be manipulated and abused by the master of deception. All he has to do is find the weakness and exploit it to his advantage and he has drawn men from God and the truth thereof.

Seems like an absolute truth to me:

But the truth is, O men of Athens, that God alone is wise, and...the wisdom of men is little or nothing.
- Socrates (Apology 23)​

I believe the father of philosophy would say those who deny such truths aren't philosophers at all. For the word philosopher means one who loves truth.

 

[Peter J Barban]

your claim was that we should use personal experience to determine what is truth of a passage. I asked you what passage you use to support that claim....as I said, I don't know that passage and apparently you don't either or you would have provided it.
Now, personal experience is absolute when it comes to a relationship with God and that is a given but I have searched diligently for truth as to how to not be deceived and what I find time and time again is that emotions and personal experiences can often and are often manipulated by Satan to deceive us and turn us away from God. I ask you again to provide a scripture that tells us that experience is a good way to prevent us from being deceived. now we change to fruit? Why the change? Okay, let's talk about fruit. Fruit is an individual thing. In fact, as the HS being the guarantee of our salvation, the down payment as it were, without the personal experience of the indwelling fruit of the HS (Gal. 5:22-23) we have no guarantee. But what we are being asked about in the OP is how to know truth of scripture from deceptions thereof. Two very different things. This makes it sound like you believe that we are only allowed to look at the outward showy signs. Let me remind you of this passage...Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

If we rely on the signs and wonders to tell us who is and is not speaking truth, we can easily be deceived according to this passage, in fact, it's one of the lies Satan uses to deceive us.

I think you are going hyper. I have simply been pointing out that the Bible says that the fruit of following the message shows us if the message is true or false. Good fruit = good message. Bad fruit = bad message. Likewise, the fruit validates the ministry and the minister. Additionally, the Bible makes much use of witnesses - that is people sharing their personal experiences to confirm the truth of events and messages.

Obviously, you aren't going to be filled with the fruit of the Spirit if your life is based on false teaching.

 

[razzelflabben]

Seems like an absolute truth to me:

But the truth is, O men of Athens, that God alone is wise, and...the wisdom of men is little or nothing.
- Socrates (Apology 23)​

I believe the father of philosophy would say those who deny such truths aren't philosophers at all. For the word philosopher means one who loves truth.

no contest, I'm just saying that philosophy even by Socrates can be manipulated into missing truth which is why we need to follow God's plan for not being deceived rather than man's.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think you are going hyper. I have simply been pointing out that the Bible says that the fruit of following the message shows us if the message is true or false. Good fruit = good message. Bad fruit = bad message. Likewise, the fruit validates the ministry and the minister. Additionally, the Bible makes much use of witnesses - that is people sharing their personal experiences to confirm the truth of events and messages.

Obviously, you aren't going to be filled with the fruit of the Spirit if your life is based on false teaching.

and as I previously pointed out, what do you then do with 2 Corinthians 11:14?

It seems odd to me that so many here seem opposed to safeguarding themselves as God instructs us to do rather than through man's logic and boasts...

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates, if you are misunderstood, surely it is due to your methods. You could make yourself better understood if you spoke your beliefs plainly.

I have to agree with shadowhunter. Your roleplaying leads me to frustration. You appear to be an atheist pretending at being a Christian, what with your promotion of amoral methods to judge Biblical teaching.

Could you just come out and clarify your position on Jesus Christ and the Bible (since the Bible is a major focus of this thread)?

Yes, no problem. I was raised Catholic by my aunt and confirmed at the age of 13 (my parents didn't attend any church). Left the Catholic Church and became a born again fundamentalist baptist while serving in the US Army in Italy. When I returned home, I graduated college, married and became a member of an Evangelical Reformed church, where the pastor had me teach bible studies. I'm currently attending a Methodist church with my wife. We have one son who is an atheist and one who is Christian.

There has never been a time I can remember when I didn't believe in God and wonder how anyone can doubt God exists. The arguments against God's existence are weak at best, or sometimes even illogical. Since I was 19, I've had no doubt the scriptures teach the truth about God, but for the last 10 years or so, I've doubted my own ability to correctly interpret them.

Before that time, I was confident I knew the truth and everyone who disagreed with me was deceived or trying to deceive. I won a lot of arguments, but lost humility. Having been shown how wrong I was, I'm now determined to not argue any more, but find out what's true. So I avoid debate insofar as I'm able and ask anyone who's willing to answer why they believe.

 

[Saint JOHN]

Try the Spirits..easiest way to cut through the smoke and mirrors of religion....

Jesus said (to his disciples..as a warning and a proof..believers ,so called crucified him)

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

any that do not confess this are not confessing Jesus Christ..not truly believing , etc

so its free and easy..so..
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(for starters babies cant repent..so anything with this is off)
(baptism ..full immersion ..what the basic Greek word means)
thats your bit !

recive the Holy Ghost...Gods bit..when you make full contact YOU WILL KNOW....and the signs automatically follow...

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[Peter J Barban]

and as I previously pointed out, what do you then do with 2 Corinthians 11:14?

It seems odd to me that so many here seem opposed to safeguarding themselves as God instructs us to do rather than through man's logic and boasts...

2 Cor 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

How does Paul show that he is a true apostle? By appealing to their experience with Paul.

2Cor 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

 

[spockrates]

no contest, I'm just saying that philosophy even by Socrates can be manipulated into missing truth which is why we need to follow God's plan for not being deceived rather than man's.

What's the first step of that plan?

 

[razzelflabben]

2 Cor 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

How does Paul show that he is a true apostle? By appealing to their experience with Paul.

2Cor 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

what is the difference? Come on, you know the answer you just have to say it...

 

[Peter J Barban]

Yes, no problem. I was raised Catholic by my aunt and confirmed at the age of 13 (my parents didn't attend any church). Left the Catholic Church and became a born again fundamentalist baptist while serving in the US Army in Italy. When I returned home, I graduated college, married and became a member of an Evangelical Reformed church, where the pastor had me teach bible studies. I'm currently attending a Methodist church with my wife. I have one son who is an atheist and one who is Christian.

There has never been a time I can remember when I didn't believe in God and wonder how anyone can doubt God's existence. The arguments against God's existence are weak at best, or sometimes even illogical. Since I was 19, I've had no doubt the scriptures teach the truth about God, but for the last 10 years or so, I've doubted my own ability to correctly interpret them.

Before that time, I was confident I knew the truth and everyone who disagreed with me was deceived or trying to deceive. I won a lot of arguments, but lost humility. Having been shown how wrong I was, I'm now determined to not argue any more, but find out what's true. So I avoid debate insofar as I'm able and ask anyone who's willing to answer why they believe.

Thanks for your testimony. I will respect it.

However, I don't think that the Socratic Method is going to give you what you want. At best, you are going to attract a lot of "head-Christians" who love the mind more than the Spirit. At worst? You may be substituting one form of pride for another.

 

[razzelflabben]

What's the first step of that plan?

the first step is to seek God and trust Him completely. Rely on the HS as is evidenced in your life as the guarantee of your salvation. that is always the first step in knowing God for who He is not who we want Him to be.

 

[razzelflabben]

A directed Bible Study is basically when we ask a question of God/scripture and allow that study to take us where it wants us to go.

So, the long post I gave you is a directed bible study of how God protects us from being deceived. It tells us about seeking God, trusting God, study of His word, prayer, etc. and the importance of each. With each "new" thing uncovered we look deeper into it so that we truly understand what it is saying. There are very few directed Bible Studies out there, I'll be honest, what we are doing is some of the few we have ever found but it is a powerful way to study scripture and discover the God of the Bible. You will go on adventures you never thought possible from scripture and discover truths that you have never even thought about much less have heard taught. You will go deeper than you ever thought possible and there discover that you have barely begun to scratch the surface of who God is and what He wants you to know. It's all about scripture, what it says and how that scripture fits not just the questions asked but the totality of the Word of God.

 

[spockrates]

Try the Spirits..easiest way to cut through the smoke and mirrors of religion....

Jesus said (to his disciples..as a warning and a proof..believers ,so called crucified him)

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

any that do not confess this are not confessing Jesus Christ..not truly believing , etc

so its free and easy..so..
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(for starters babies cant repent..so anything with this is off)
(baptism ..full immersion ..what the basic Greek word means)
thats your bit !

recive the Holy Ghost...Gods bit..when you make full contact YOU WILL KNOW....and the signs automatically follow...

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Hi @Saint JOHN. Sounds like you might be Pentecostal. I admire the enthusiasm of those who are of that mindset, though I have to admit my hands rarely get far above my hips when I worship.

Are you thinking that speaking in tongues is a requirement for knowing who is deceived and who isn't? Or are you of the opinion that not all Christians speak in tongues, but those who do are less likely to be deceived? Or did you have some other point in mind?

 

[spockrates]

the first step is to seek God and trust Him completely.

Done that.

Rely on the HS as is evidenced in your life as the guarantee of your salvation.

I think I know what you mean, but please elaborate.

that is always the first step in knowing God for who He is not who we want Him to be.

 

[Peter J Barban]

what is the difference? Come on, you know the answer you just have to say it...

I am not sure what you are aiming at.

I am trying to answer the OP concern of deciding which if any Bible teacher is correct. Jesus says, follow it and see what the results are. The fruit will confirm if is true. Don't imagine that I think this is the only way. But this is the surest way.

I am a spirit-filled missionary and Bible teacher. I have many ways to judge a teaching including a prophetic word from God. That is my claim. But how does anyone else know if what I teach is true?

I point out my spiritual fruit: love, joy, peace, etc. I point out my testimony, my sacrifice, and faithfulness (just like Paul). I point out the testimony about me by my family and long term students. I point to the fruit of my family and ministry - not the size but the transformation of the students. They, too, are my fruit.

Few laymen are confident to judge my theology, especially if it challenges their own. Rather than just say "trust me, I have the truth", I say, "Judge my fruit, if you want this fruit, too, then follow what I say and do." And this is what Jesus and Paul said and did.

 

[razzelflabben]

Done that.



I think I know what you mean, but please elaborate.

Rely on the HS as is evidenced in your life as the guarantee of your salvation...elaborating...the HS is given to man as a guarantee or down payment for his salvation. the evidence of that HS is the fruit of the Spirit as found in Gal. 5 as well as righteousness in ever growing greatness. IOW's The fruit of the spirit is love...we should constantly be growing in Love not worldly love but Biblical Love which is ...putting another above self in an act of humility creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration.

Relying on this is where most of my personal doubts come into play because I want to take all the blame rather than accepting that God is working as is evidenced in my life.

The second step could vary depending on how one studies scripture on the matter but I would put it as study of the word of God, rightly dividing it through a careful study and prayer. I think I shared the layers of protection I personally put on my study, I can share again if you are interested but that isn't as important as study I am referring to from scripture itself.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am not sure what you are aiming at.

I am trying to answer the OP concern of deciding which if any Bible teacher is correct. Jesus says, follow it and see what the results are. The fruit will confirm if is true. Don't imagine that I think this is the only way. But this is the surest way.

I am a spirit-filled missionary and Bible teacher. I have many ways to judge a teaching including a prophetic word from God. That is my claim. But how does anyone else know if what I teach is true?

I point out my spiritual fruit: love, joy, peace, etc. I point out my testimony, my sacrifice, and faithfulness (just like Paul). I point out the testimony about me by my family and long term students. I point to the fruit of my family and ministry - not the size but the transformation of the students. They, too, are my fruit.

Few laymen are confident to judge my theology, especially if it challenges their own. Rather than just say "trust me, I have the truth", I say, "Judge my fruit, if you want this fruit, too, then follow what I say and do." And this is what Jesus and Paul said and did.

amen...you said it finally. The fruit that we can "trust" is that fruit that has been tested by God through afflictions and challenge. What was the difference? The false teachers fail the test. Even Tim. talks about the qualifications of the deacons and elders as those that have been tested. If we don't know the teacher we cannot know if they have passed the test of not. That brings us back to the OP question, how can we know???? Where fruit is helpful it cannot answer the question for us unless it is someone we know who has been tested and tried and passed that testing in God's power for God's Kingdom is not a Kingdom of words but of Power

 

[Peter J Barban]

amen...you said it finally. The fruit that we can "trust" is that fruit that has been tested by God through afflictions and challenge. What was the difference? The false teachers fail the test. Even Tim. talks about the qualifications of the deacons and elders as those that have been tested. If we don't know the teacher we cannot know if they have passed the test of not. That brings us back to the OP question, how can we know???? Where fruit is helpful it cannot answer the question for us unless it is someone we know who has been tested and tried and passed that testing in God's power for God's Kingdom is not a Kingdom of words but of Power

I'm glad we are in agreement.

I remember hearing of big revivals in Toronto, Brownsville, and Pensacola. I hoped they were real but, stuck in Taiwan, I had no way to judge it for myself. There was great controversy, but the Great Awakening had great controversy too.

Then, someone wrote an article saying that in past revivals, the power of God had moved out of the church and transformed the surrounding communities. Even hardened pagans had a fear of the Lord. That was not happening in these modern revivals. So that made me doubt the revival's fruit.

Finally, I watched a video of one of the meetings. The service was full of foolishness and laughter. It presented comfortable people enjoying a comedy show. I saw no holiness, no transformation, and no fruit of the Spirit. That confirmed for the that these revivals were not of the Holy Spirit.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure we can say it's impossible Socrates had exposure to Jewish thought. Alexander the Great conquered many nations where Jewish rabbis lived. Socrates' home of Athens traded with all of these nations and its people had an insatiable appetite for learning new ideas.

Yes, I'm sure they did to some extent, but this wouldn't necessarily mean the Greeks respected the Jews of Socrates' time in a way that influenced Greek thought. In regard to some of this, John Collins gives some interesting comments (see p. 6):

But let's say for the moment you are correct, and Socrates had absolutely no exposure at all to the idea of monotheism. From where then did his concept of a God who is wiser than all the gods (including Zeus, the god of wisdom) come? This is why Socrates was put on trial and martyred. At his trial he even said:

I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess wisdom which I find wanting in others. But the truth is, O men of Athens, that God alone is wise, and...the wisdom of men is little or nothing.

(Apology 23)
​

He didn't say, "The gods alone are wise." Indeed he proved they weren't wise in his dialogue with a pagan priest. To his closest friends he said his own God was the source of wisdom.

If he didn't get this idea from Jewish rabbis, then who gave it to him?

That may or may not be a question that anyone can actually answer ... it's not as if all questions have answers available to them. In which case, we have to go by our own best lights in interpreting the world around us, as well as Scripture (hopefully with the help of the Holy Spirit).