Socratic Method a Good Way to "Test the Spirits"?

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,474
973
62
Taiwan
Visit site
✟97,647.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Adolph Hitler said, "If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, the masses will believe it."

Since the fruit of Hitler's life resulted in a world war and millions dead, does this mean what he said isn't true?

This is nonsensical logic!
A: Hitler says repeated lying can be successful.
B: Hitler's actions (which included lying) created bad results.
C: Was Hitler lying when he said A?

Why would you think that this form of logic can help you understand the Bible? Why would you even think to ask it?

I bring up Jesus and you bring up Hitler. This is a red flag.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Adolph Hitler said, "If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, the masses will believe it."

Since the fruit of Hitler's life resulted in a world war and millions dead, does this mean what he said isn't true?

Jesus said we would know them by their fruit. He didn't say we would know the truth by their fruit. So my thought is that fruit reveals the motives behind what a person says rather than the strength of that person's logical arguments, but please tell me if you still disagree.
Personally I think this is wise to a point. IOW's the fruit being talked about is from the indwelling HS and does as you point out show the intent or motive but it also shows the power of the words. The problem is that such things can be false representations from satan...let me explain. Satan poses as an angle of light. Thus, the deceiver...that is why the fruit where it is important and tells us who is and who is not living in the power of Christ is a poor measure for who is and is not speaking truth. Remember, even the demons recognize Jesus as the Christ.

One note of clarification...just because satan can imitate the fruit doesn't mean it is not real or that we cannot tell the difference but alas that is another discussion
 
Upvote 0

shadowhunter

+collaboratively study, ~ debate, -fight.
Supporter
Apr 19, 2008
256
63
✟60,940.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi @shadowhunter:

I want to make sure I don't misunderstand your. Are you thinking Socrates would be confused by figures of speech?

You already are. To most it is obvious that Socrates was used as a metaphor for the Socratic method. Your attempt to use your Socratic method in your response is annoyingly patronizing. I am interested in conversation where information is exchanged, not in feeding your Spock-Socrates role-play. Goodbye.
 
Upvote 0

spockrates

Wonderer
Jul 29, 2011
712
121
Indiana
✟17,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is nonsensical logic!
A: Hitler says repeated lying can be successful.
B: Hitler's actions (which included lying) created bad results.
C: Was Hitler lying when he said A?

Why would you think that this form of logic can help you understand the Bible? Why would you even think to ask it?

I bring up Jesus and you bring up Hitler. This is a red flag.

EDIT: So a logical argument is like a chain holding its conclusion above the ground. It's only as good as its weakest link. In this case, premise A is a little weak, because Hitler said repeated lying would successfully deceive, but he didn't say repeated lying would make one successful at other things. Premise B also isn't as strong as it could be, as Hitler was extremely successful at deceiving most of the German people, which were the results he was trying to achieve.

You do make a good point about Hitler, though! I'm certain he's a perfect example of a man producing bad fruit. His actions, such as ordering the assassination of political opponents, starting the Second World War and attempting genocide of the Jewish people tell us without a doubt he was no Christian.

But do you think it possible that even an evil man can sometimes make a strong argument for a true conclusion?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

spockrates

Wonderer
Jul 29, 2011
712
121
Indiana
✟17,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Personally I think this is wise to a point. IOW's the fruit being talked about is from the indwelling HS and does as you point out show the intent or motive but it also shows the power of the words. The problem is that such things can be false representations from satan...let me explain. Satan poses as an angle of light. Thus, the deceiver...that is why the fruit where it is important and tells us who is and who is not living in the power of Christ is a poor measure for who is and is not speaking truth. Remember, even the demons recognize Jesus as the Christ.

One note of clarification...just because satan can imitate the fruit doesn't mean it is not real or that we cannot tell the difference but alas that is another discussion

Agreed. So I wonder: If the Socratic Method isn't the preferred method for revealing to me when I myself am deceived, then what is?

I mean, what I try to do is this: When the meaning of a scripture is crystal clear to me, I agree that what I know that scripture says is absolutely true. But any scripture that is clear as mud, I say, I don't know for sure what truth it's trying to tell me, so for now I'll have to agree I just don't know what the truth it has to say is.

I think this is a good way to help keep myself from being deceived, but do you agree?
 
  • Like
Reactions: razzelflabben
Upvote 0

spockrates

Wonderer
Jul 29, 2011
712
121
Indiana
✟17,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You already are. To most it is obvious that Socrates was used as a metaphor for the Socratic method. Your attempt to use your Socratic method in your response is annoyingly patronizing. I am interested in conversation where information is exchanged, not in feeding your Spock-Socrates role-play. Goodbye.

To bad you have to go. I'd like to hear more about your opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: razzelflabben
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Agreed. So I wonder: If the Socratic Method isn't the preferred method for revealing to me when I myself am deceived, then what is?

I mean, what I try to do is this: When the meaning of a scripture is crystal clear to me, I agree that what I know that scripture says is absolutely true. But any scripture that is clear as mud, I say, I don't know for sure what truth it's trying to tell me, so for now I'll have to agree I just don't know what the truth it has to say is.

I think this is a good way to help keep myself from being deceived, but do you agree?
I would agree and add this...scripture is pretty clear that God wants us to seek Him and that if we do He will be found. So in addition to saying "I don't know", add a true and passionate seeking after God so that He is free to reveal to you who He is and what He wants you to know. In addition, don't defeat yourself. Speaking from experience here...it is way too easy to make excuses like, "I can't hear God", "someone else is wiser in the matter", "I don't know enough to study", "how do I know when it is God and when it is me", etc. The truth that we have to accept is that God wants to be found and if we are truly seeking Him and not the wisdom of man He will reveal Himself to us. This is a promise we need to learn to rest in, preaching to myself as much as anyone. Test, study, seek God then rest in the answer even if the answer is "I don't know yet".
 
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,474
973
62
Taiwan
Visit site
✟97,647.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But do you think it possible that even an evil man can sometimes make a strong argument for a true conclusion?
Why are you sidetracking your own thread?

You wanted to know if the Socratic method would help in understanding the Bible, especially when teachers differ. The answer is no, and obviously so. The Bible does give advice on discerning the truth through personal experience and judging the spiritual fruit of the teachers and their followers. That appears not to interest you.

Do you want to lead us away from the Bible for answers? Should we instead contemplate the logic of Hitler's life?
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why are you sidetracking your own thread?

You wanted to know if the Socratic method would help in understanding the Bible, especially when teachers differ. The answer is no, and obviously so. The Bible does give advice on discerning the truth through personal experience and judging the spiritual fruit of the teachers and their followers. That appears not to interest you.

Do you want to lead us away from the Bible for answers? Should we instead contemplate the logic of Hitler's life?
wait, please show passages that tell us to use personal experience and judgment to determine what God intends for us to know from His word...I mean I could manipulate some of the passages to say that but I don't know of any that actually say such. Rather it says to study, to allow the HS to teach, to rightly divide the word which is pretty much what we are discussing here and Hitler applies as such. Just because a man is evil doesn't mean that there is no truth in what he says. In fact, one of the schemes of satan is that of partial truths as well as teachers who teach truth but live in sin.
 
Upvote 0

spockrates

Wonderer
Jul 29, 2011
712
121
Indiana
✟17,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would agree and add this...scripture is pretty clear that God wants us to seek Him and that if we do He will be found. So in addition to saying "I don't know", add a true and passionate seeking after God so that He is free to reveal to you who He is and what He wants you to know. In addition, don't defeat yourself. Speaking from experience here...it is way too easy to make excuses like, "I can't hear God", "someone else is wiser in the matter", "I don't know enough to study", "how do I know when it is God and when it is me", etc. The truth that we have to accept is that God wants to be found and if we are truly seeking Him and not the wisdom of man He will reveal Himself to us. This is a promise we need to learn to rest in, preaching to myself as much as anyone. Test, study, seek God then rest in the answer even if the answer is "I don't know yet".
Yes, I will. But sometimes I wonder if keeping me guessing is God's will for me. Though it's disconcerting for me personally, it can be a great benefit for others.

I mean, I know my repeated questions are a frustration to some. In fact, they might seem downright childish! For an inquisitive child can test the patience of the most mature by continuing to ask why. But for the mature who does his level best to answer, there's the benefit of added knowledge and wisdom.

"Why is the sky blue?" a child asks. If the adult doesn't know, it forces her to do some research and find out. Finding the answer benefits not only her but also the next child who asks the same question.

"Why do you believe Jesus was speaking figuratively at the last supper?" I might ask. If the spiritually mature doesn't know, it forces him to do some research and find out. Finding the answer benefits not only him but also the next wonderer who asks the same question.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: razzelflabben
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

shadowhunter

+collaboratively study, ~ debate, -fight.
Supporter
Apr 19, 2008
256
63
✟60,940.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To bad you have to go. I'd like to hear more about your opinion.
No. You like to play your game. If you wished to hear more you would have engaged on one or more of the more salient points made in the post rather than choosing to question the use of a metaphor in a side note.

You would have asked for clarification on things that were brand new to you. Your object is not to hear opinions, nor to discern facts. Merely to play your game long after the OP has been clearly answered.

You would have acknowledged other's arguments rather than to simply shift to a lessor point in their posts.

Socrates used the same set of facts to arrive at opposite conclusions. He disqualified his method as a way of discerning truth. I know you are aware of this and the problem of universal ignorance and the Socratic false dilemma, yet you continue to troll.

What is this, but your nonsensical game?: "But do you think it possible that even an evil man can sometimes make a strong argument for a true conclusion?"

You know the answer, and you know it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the answer "that even an evil man can sometimes make a strong argument for a true conclusion" since arguments stand of fall on their own (in Greek logic). But that isn't the question you asked. You asked "Do you think the ad-hominem fallacy is really a fallacy?"

This is nothing but pure sophistry.

I had hoped you had reformed. Obviously not. The game is more important to you than truth. I won't play.

The answer is: You have demonstrated the sophistry of the Socratic method perfectly. There is a reason he chose to die rather than continue to play his game. It was nonsense even to him. Greek logic is not good for discerning truth even in Greek writing, it certainly cannot be applied to Hebrew multi-layered text.

I've said before, you mimic the Socratic nonsense better than any I have seen. But it is a game, since you know it does not lead to truth. Your mind could be put to better use.

You asked for my opinion. You have it. Bye.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hi @shadowhunter:

I want to make sure I don't misunderstand your. Are you thinking Socrates would be confused by figures of speech?

Maybe...especially if he encountered Jewish figures of speech which are not native to his own Greek culture. Socrates was both deductive and inductive in his approach, but his induction tended to refer to those things of 'common' experience. And we really can't say that he likely had 'common' experience with Jerusalem.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
Upvote 0

spockrates

Wonderer
Jul 29, 2011
712
121
Indiana
✟17,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No. You like to play your game. If you wished to hear more you would have engaged on one or more of the more salient points made in the post rather than choosing to question the use of a metaphor in a side note.

You would have asked for clarification on things that were brand new to you. Your object is not to hear opinions, nor to discern facts. Merely to play your game long after the OP has been clearly answered.

You would have acknowledged other's arguments rather than to simply shift to a lessor point in their posts.

Socrates used the same set of facts to arrive at opposite conclusions. He disqualified his method as a way of discerning truth. I know you are aware of this and the problem of universal ignorance and the Socratic false dilemma, yet you continue to troll.

What is this, but your nonsensical game?: "But do you think it possible that even an evil man can sometimes make a strong argument for a true conclusion?"

You know the answer, and you know it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the answer "that even an evil man can sometimes make a strong argument for a true conclusion" since arguments stand of fall on their own (in Greek logic). But that isn't the question you asked. You asked "Do you think the ad-hominem fallacy is really a fallacy?"

This is nothing but pure sophistry.

I had hoped you had reformed. Obviously not. The game is more important to you than truth. I won't play.

The answer is: You have demonstrated the sophistry of the Socratic method perfectly. There is a reason he chose to die rather than continue to play his game. It was nonsense even to him. Greek logic is not good for discerning truth even in Greek writing, it certainly cannot be applied to Hebrew multi-layered text.

I've said before, you mimic the Socratic nonsense better than any I have seen. But it is a game, since you know it does not lead to truth. Your mind could be put to better use.

You asked for my opinion. You have it. Bye.

I feel misunderstood. To me, my words were asking for clarification:

I want to make sure I don't misunderstand you. Are you thinking Socrates would be confused by figures of speech?​
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I will. But sometimes I wonder if keeping me guessing is God's will for me. Though it's disconcerting for me personally, it can be a great benefit for others.

I mean, I know my repeated questions are a frustration to some. In fact, they might seem downright childish! For an inquisitive child can test the patience of the most mature by continuing to ask why. But for the mature who does his level best to answer, there's the benefit of added knowledge and wisdom.

"Why is the sky blue?" a child asks. If the adult doesn't know, it forces her to do some research and find out. Finding the answer benefits not only her but also the next child who asks the same question.

"Why do you believe Jesus was speaking figuratively at the last supper?" I might ask. If the spiritually mature doesn't know, it forces him to do some research and find out. Finding the answer benefits not only him but also the next wonderer who asks the same question.
exactly, but we can also take it too far and never turn that knowledge into simple faith which is what I personally flirt with more than I should.

Praying for you...maybe you should look into some good directed bible studies. Do you know what those are?
 
Upvote 0

spockrates

Wonderer
Jul 29, 2011
712
121
Indiana
✟17,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Maybe...especially if he encountered Jewish figures of speech which are not native to his own Greek culture. Socrates was both deductive and inductive in his approach, but his induction tended to refer to those things of 'common' experience. And we really can't say that he likely had 'common' experience with Jerusalem.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure we can say it's impossible Socrates had exposure to Jewish thought. Alexander the Great conquered many nations where Jewish rabbis lived. Socrates' home of Athens traded with all of these nations and its people had an insatiable appetite for learning new ideas.

But let's say for the moment you are correct, and Socrates had absolutely no exposure at all to the idea of monotheism. From where then did his concept of a God who is wiser than all the gods (including Zeus, the god of wisdom) come? This is why Socrates was put on trial and martyred. At his trial he even said:

I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess wisdom which I find wanting in others. But the truth is, O men of Athens, that God alone is wise, and...the wisdom of men is little or nothing.

(Apology 23)
He didn't say, "The gods alone are wise." Indeed he proved they weren't wise in his dialogue with a pagan priest. To his closest friends he said his own God was the source of wisdom.

If he didn't get this idea from Jewish rabbis, then who gave it to him?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I feel misunderstood. To me, my words were asking for clarification:

I want to make sure I don't misunderstand you. Are you thinking Socrates would be confused by figures of speech?​
personal opinion, most of the "great" philosophers were playing games with not only thought but truth. To that end, I think Socrates could and would use figures of speech as a tool of confusion. That being said, philosophy when done correctly is a great tool that God can and often does use to introduce us to Himself and the truths thereof. But like most things in this world, Satan takes what is good and twists and turns it into something that is bad and in that many people become confused and deceived. That is why the previous study I presented is to important. it is a guided bible study (will explain if anyone doesn't know what that is) about how the God of Love keeps us from being deceived and what our role in that protection is. God is leading us to truth, Satan is leading us to deceptions...how do we know what is truth and what is lie is a valid question but the only absolute way to know the difference is doing it God's way.
 
Upvote 0

spockrates

Wonderer
Jul 29, 2011
712
121
Indiana
✟17,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
personal opinion, most of the "great" philosophers were playing games with not only thought but truth. To that end, I think Socrates could and would use figures of speech as a tool of confusion. That being said, philosophy when done correctly is a great tool that God can and often does use to introduce us to Himself and the truths thereof. But like most things in this world, Satan takes what is good and twists and turns it into something that is bad and in that many people become confused and deceived. That is why the previous study I presented is to important. it is a guided bible study (will explain if anyone doesn't know what that is) about how the God of Love keeps us from being deceived and what our role in that protection is. God is leading us to truth, Satan is leading us to deceptions...how do we know what is truth and what is lie is a valid question but the only absolute way to know the difference is doing it God's way.

Understood. Yeah, Socrates had contempt for Stohic philosophers who played such games. Of them he said:

For the partisans, when engaged in a dispute, care nothing about the truth, but are anxious only to convince their hearers of their own assertions. The difference between them and me is only this: That whereas they seek to convince their hearers about what they say, I am rather seeking to convince myself!
(Phaedo)​
 
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,474
973
62
Taiwan
Visit site
✟97,647.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
wait, please show passages that tell us to use personal experience and judgment to determine what God intends for us to know from His word..

The Bible does give advice on discerning the truth through personal experience and judging the spiritual fruit of the teachers and their followers. That appears not to interest you.

Finally, as you live out the teaching you will product judgeable fruit:

John 7:16Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

By obeying Jesus' teaching we will find out through personal experience if it is from God or not. Either it produces good fruit or it doesn't.

Also, Jesus appealed John's disciples experience of Jesus ministry to validate his fruit.

"1After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.a

2When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

4Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

Edit: I posted this too soon. I can furnish more verses if you are not satisfied.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Understood. Yeah, Socrates had contempt for Stohic philosophers who played such games. Of them he said:

For the partisans, when engaged in a dispute, care nothing about the truth, but are anxious only to convince their hearers of their own assertions. The difference between them and me is only this: That whereas they seek to convince their hearers about what they say, I am rather seeking to convince myself!
(Phaedo)​
but even in trying to convince ourselves we discover a tool of satan. For most "thinkers" there cannot be such a thing as an absolute truth for if there is, there is nothing more to consider or think about or convince even ourselves us. However, in God we find that there are absolutes, absolutes that we should cling to with all that we are even if we don't understand them or are not able to reason them out or convince ourselves of them. This is the downfall of philosophy and every one of man's "sciences" has a flaw that can be manipulated and abused by the master of deception. All he has to do is find the weakness and exploit it to his advantage and he has drawn men from God and the truth thereof.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
By obeying Jesus' teaching we will find out through personal experience if it is from God or not. Either it produces good fruit or it doesn't.
your claim was that we should use personal experience to determine what is truth of a passage. I asked you what passage you use to support that claim....as I said, I don't know that passage and apparently you don't either or you would have provided it.
Now, personal experience is absolute when it comes to a relationship with God and that is a given but I have searched diligently for truth as to how to not be deceived and what I find time and time again is that emotions and personal experiences can often and are often manipulated by Satan to deceive us and turn us away from God. I ask you again to provide a scripture that tells us that experience is a good way to prevent us from being deceived.
Also, Jesus appealed John's disciples experience of Jesus ministry to validate his fruit.
now we change to fruit? Why the change? Okay, let's talk about fruit. Fruit is an individual thing. In fact, as the HS being the guarantee of our salvation, the down payment as it were, without the personal experience of the indwelling fruit of the HS (Gal. 5:22-23) we have no guarantee. But what we are being asked about in the OP is how to know truth of scripture from deceptions thereof. Two very different things.
"1After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.a

2When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

4Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosyb are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”
This makes it sound like you believe that we are only allowed to look at the outward showy signs. Let me remind you of this passage...Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

If we rely on the signs and wonders to tell us who is and is not speaking truth, we can easily be deceived according to this passage, in fact, it's one of the lies Satan uses to deceive us.
 
Upvote 0