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Socialists?
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It's scary how far to the right the political spectrum in America has moved. Even Regan, the guy that every conservative is supposed to admire, was more liberal that Barack Obama on some issues!
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- Jul 21, 2008
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Somewhat Socialist in the context of this poll I suppose. In the views of the right: Very Socialist because I support a national healthcare system and believe the government should regulate big business especially in exploitation of the poor and of the environment. I still, however, believe the free market offers the best competition and choice for consumers but I don't think mega-conglomerates should be allowed to run rampant.
I must be pretty masochistic to torture myself with the Non-Christian Religion section (better referred to as the "always look like the bad guy and have any voice silenced that sounds better than the norm here" board) but you take the bad with the good. I'm happy to know there are sane folks in WWMC and some Christian churches.
I must be pretty masochistic to torture myself with the Non-Christian Religion section (better referred to as the "always look like the bad guy and have any voice silenced that sounds better than the norm here" board) but you take the bad with the good. I'm happy to know there are sane folks in WWMC and some Christian churches.
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someonestupid
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Socialist in the sense that I believe some things ought to be socialized. I also believe in the reinstatement of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Large corporations should not be allowed to monopolize the market. Reagan was, in my opinion, the reason why we're in the economic bind we're in.
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I am not a socialist...yet.
I'm going more and more left.
I have a current problem with democracy in a direct manner. The rule of mob is all I see. Then again...with a capitalist society and a republic...a corporation republic created for and made for corporations, free range profit without care, defining success in infinite definitions that lead us to predictable recessions, lives destroyed through predictable recessions, wars for nationalistic interests which then downturn our own nation's security and economic structure.
So while I am probably a moderate who leans left, the sun is shining bright from the left as far as I can see. I just have to be able to get passed certain bumps because I am more realistic than I am idealistic and I do believe that socialism and communism, the political theory was created for very real problems, very real and complex things we face everyday so those things have be beyond a world of idealism. I do however believe that human being's way of showing those things have not gone well yet. Dictatorship, atrocities, and heck, even creating the very same problem that they were trying to get away from(arguments that I have heard from socialists and communists complaining about the era of Stalin and Lenin).
So onward left I go.
I'm going more and more left.
I have a current problem with democracy in a direct manner. The rule of mob is all I see. Then again...with a capitalist society and a republic...a corporation republic created for and made for corporations, free range profit without care, defining success in infinite definitions that lead us to predictable recessions, lives destroyed through predictable recessions, wars for nationalistic interests which then downturn our own nation's security and economic structure.
So while I am probably a moderate who leans left, the sun is shining bright from the left as far as I can see. I just have to be able to get passed certain bumps because I am more realistic than I am idealistic and I do believe that socialism and communism, the political theory was created for very real problems, very real and complex things we face everyday so those things have be beyond a world of idealism. I do however believe that human being's way of showing those things have not gone well yet. Dictatorship, atrocities, and heck, even creating the very same problem that they were trying to get away from(arguments that I have heard from socialists and communists complaining about the era of Stalin and Lenin).
So onward left I go.
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Izdaari Eristikon
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"Grrrr Socialism! grrrrrrr!"
I'm a card carrying, dues paying member of the Libertarian Party.
I'm a card carrying, dues paying member of the Libertarian Party.
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rayodeluz
Inadaptado
Poll: Americans see Christianity, capitalism clash
Poll: Americans see Christianity, capitalism clash - USATODAY.com
Are Christianity and capitalism a marriage made in heaven, as some conservatives believe, or more of a strained relationship in need of some serious couples' counseling?
A new poll released Thursday found that more Americans (44 %) see the free market system at odds with Christian values than those who don't (36 %), whether they are white evangelicals, mainline Protestants, Catholics or minority Christians.
But in other demographic breakdowns, several categories lean the other way: Republicans and Tea Party members, college graduates and members of high-income households view the systems as more compatible than not.
The poll, conducted by Public Religion Research Institute in partnership with Religion News Service, found that although conservative Christians and evangelicals tend to want their clergy to speak out on issues like abortion and homosexuality, they also tend to hold left-of-center views on some economic issues.
"Throughout the Bible, we see numerous passages about being our brother's keeper, welcoming the stranger, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and healing the sick," said Andrew Walsh, author of Religion, Economics and Public Policy and a religion professor at Culver-Stockton College.
"The idea that we are autonomous individuals competing for limited resources without concern for the welfare of others is a philosophy that is totally alien to the Bible, and in my view, antithetical to genuine Christianity."
The findings add a new wrinkle to national debates over the size and role of government, and raise questions about the impact of the Tea Party's cut-the-budget pressure on the GOP and its traditional base of religious conservatives.
The poll found stronger religious distinctions over the question of businesses acting ethically without government regulation, and whether faith leaders should speak out about economic concerns such as the budget deficit and the minimum wage.
White evangelicals (44 %) are more likely than other Christians or the general population to believe that unregulated businesses would still behave ethically, and they place a higher priority on religious leaders speaking out about social issues over economic concerns.
Minority Christians, in contrast, believe clergy should be vocal about both areas particularly on the economic issue of home foreclosures, which 76 % considered important, compared to 46 % of the general population.
"Minority Christians have a deep theological tradition of connecting faith and economic justice, and we see that link in the survey," said Robert P. Jones, CEO of Public Religion Research Institute. "Because minorities in the U.S. generally continue to have lower incomes than whites, economic issues are also more salient in these congregations."
In other findings:
Half of women believe that capitalism and Christian values are at odds, compared to 37 % of men.
A majority (53 %) of Democrats believe capitalism and Christian values are at odds, compared to 37 % of Republicans and 41 % of independents. A majority (56 %) of Tea Party members say capitalism is consistent with Christian values.
Nearly half (46 %) of Americans with household incomes of $100,000 a year or more believe that capitalism is consistent with Christian values, compared to just 23 % of those with household incomes of $30,000 a year or less.
Most Americans (61 %) disagree that businesses would act ethically on their own without regulation from the government. White evangelicals (44 %) are more likely than Catholics (36 %), white mainline (33 %) or minority Christians (34 %) to say unregulated businesses would act ethically.
"The most idolatrous claim of the Christian right is that the invisible hand of the free market ... is none other than the hand of God," Walsh said, "and any attempt to regulate the free market, according to this theology, belies a lack of faith in God."
The Rev. Jennifer Butler, executive director of the Washington-based group Faith in Public Life, said the fact that religious values seem to trump political or class differences can help groups like hers advocate for the poor.
And in ongoing debates in Washington over the budget and cuts to domestic spending, that means "making the wealthiest Americans and corporations pay their fair share in taxes" she said.
"People of faith have a unique ability to show political leaders that the economy is a moral issue," she said. "Even some members of Congress are beginning to echo our argument that protecting the most vulnerable as we get out of debt is a moral duty."
The PRRI/RNS Religion News Poll was based on telephone interviews of 1,010 U.S. adults between April 14 and 17. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
Poll: Americans see Christianity, capitalism clash - USATODAY.com
Are Christianity and capitalism a marriage made in heaven, as some conservatives believe, or more of a strained relationship in need of some serious couples' counseling?
A new poll released Thursday found that more Americans (44 %) see the free market system at odds with Christian values than those who don't (36 %), whether they are white evangelicals, mainline Protestants, Catholics or minority Christians.
But in other demographic breakdowns, several categories lean the other way: Republicans and Tea Party members, college graduates and members of high-income households view the systems as more compatible than not.
The poll, conducted by Public Religion Research Institute in partnership with Religion News Service, found that although conservative Christians and evangelicals tend to want their clergy to speak out on issues like abortion and homosexuality, they also tend to hold left-of-center views on some economic issues.
"Throughout the Bible, we see numerous passages about being our brother's keeper, welcoming the stranger, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and healing the sick," said Andrew Walsh, author of Religion, Economics and Public Policy and a religion professor at Culver-Stockton College.
"The idea that we are autonomous individuals competing for limited resources without concern for the welfare of others is a philosophy that is totally alien to the Bible, and in my view, antithetical to genuine Christianity."
The findings add a new wrinkle to national debates over the size and role of government, and raise questions about the impact of the Tea Party's cut-the-budget pressure on the GOP and its traditional base of religious conservatives.
The poll found stronger religious distinctions over the question of businesses acting ethically without government regulation, and whether faith leaders should speak out about economic concerns such as the budget deficit and the minimum wage.
White evangelicals (44 %) are more likely than other Christians or the general population to believe that unregulated businesses would still behave ethically, and they place a higher priority on religious leaders speaking out about social issues over economic concerns.
Minority Christians, in contrast, believe clergy should be vocal about both areas particularly on the economic issue of home foreclosures, which 76 % considered important, compared to 46 % of the general population.
"Minority Christians have a deep theological tradition of connecting faith and economic justice, and we see that link in the survey," said Robert P. Jones, CEO of Public Religion Research Institute. "Because minorities in the U.S. generally continue to have lower incomes than whites, economic issues are also more salient in these congregations."
In other findings:
Half of women believe that capitalism and Christian values are at odds, compared to 37 % of men.
A majority (53 %) of Democrats believe capitalism and Christian values are at odds, compared to 37 % of Republicans and 41 % of independents. A majority (56 %) of Tea Party members say capitalism is consistent with Christian values.
Nearly half (46 %) of Americans with household incomes of $100,000 a year or more believe that capitalism is consistent with Christian values, compared to just 23 % of those with household incomes of $30,000 a year or less.
Most Americans (61 %) disagree that businesses would act ethically on their own without regulation from the government. White evangelicals (44 %) are more likely than Catholics (36 %), white mainline (33 %) or minority Christians (34 %) to say unregulated businesses would act ethically.
"The most idolatrous claim of the Christian right is that the invisible hand of the free market ... is none other than the hand of God," Walsh said, "and any attempt to regulate the free market, according to this theology, belies a lack of faith in God."
The Rev. Jennifer Butler, executive director of the Washington-based group Faith in Public Life, said the fact that religious values seem to trump political or class differences can help groups like hers advocate for the poor.
And in ongoing debates in Washington over the budget and cuts to domestic spending, that means "making the wealthiest Americans and corporations pay their fair share in taxes" she said.
"People of faith have a unique ability to show political leaders that the economy is a moral issue," she said. "Even some members of Congress are beginning to echo our argument that protecting the most vulnerable as we get out of debt is a moral duty."
The PRRI/RNS Religion News Poll was based on telephone interviews of 1,010 U.S. adults between April 14 and 17. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
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lismore
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Scotland is quite a socialist country. I support the sitting SNP (Scottish National Party) government who are very socialist.
They have introduced various measures, safeguarding free University tuition for all, free bus travel for elderly people, subsidies to rail and ferry travel (cheaper fares) no prescription charges, no tax rises....no priavatision of the National Health service.....they now intend to have all electricity generated by wind and wave power by 2020, no more nuclear.
They have introduced various measures, safeguarding free University tuition for all, free bus travel for elderly people, subsidies to rail and ferry travel (cheaper fares) no prescription charges, no tax rises....no priavatision of the National Health service.....they now intend to have all electricity generated by wind and wave power by 2020, no more nuclear.
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Scotland is quite a socialist country. I support the sitting SNP (Scottish National Party) government who are very socialist.
They have introduced various measures, safeguarding free University tuition for all, free bus travel for elderly people, subsidies to rail and ferry travel (cheaper fares) no prescription charges, no tax rises....no priavatision of the National Health service.....they now intend to have all electricity generated by wind and wave power by 2020, no more nuclear.
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I'm more socialist than not, although I don't have any concrete political stance. I will vote for the Scottish National Party in the upcoming Scottish elections, and many of their policies can be viewed as democractically socialist. I am also a supporter of Scottish independance from an anti-imperialist viewpoint. I guess to some extent I hope something akin to libertarian socialism, or christian anarchism, but I know in reality government will continue to exist in some state or form, mainly because of the fallen nature of mankind. But that doesn't stop me from trying to do my bit as best I can. So I would say overall I'm a Christian informed by socialism and anarchism, to some extent.
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S
Shropshire Anglican
Guest
The Christian Socialist Movement here in the UK is very influential in many Christian circles. Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown is a member as are many Labour MPs.
The idea that you can't be Christian and socialist is so far off base.
The idea that you can't be Christian and socialist is so far off base.
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I consider myself a pragmatist. a will to try to please everyone with different socio-economic interests.
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S
Shropshire Anglican
Guest
Agreed. My reading of Scripture is that Christ believed in what we would now call Socialism. Helping the poor and desitute, caring for those on the fringes of society, etc.
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Izdaari Eristikon
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I'd say there's no question He believed in those ends, and I think all Christians likewise should. But it's entirely possible to believe that without believing government is the best means, and I know of nothing that suggests Jesus ever thought it was.
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The Philosoraptor
Newbie
Nice to meet you; another scot here and card carrying SNP member! Glad to know it's not just Americans on these boards.
China is not Communist, and has not been Communist. The fundamental article of Communism is that the workrers own the means of production, and this has not happened in any of the so called "communist" states of the 20th century. The USSR and China could, at a pinch, be labelled "Socialist" but they are right on that borderline and I'd feel more comfortable categorising them as state capitalist models.
The shortcoming of a lot of the Marxist political parties up until now has been an over-reliance on government and economics to enforce a top down style of ideology, which is not what Marx was all about. His early work dealt with similar themes to his later thought, but came at it in a totally different way; they have a much more socio-philosophical bent about them which would lend itself to Marxism as a social movement rather than an economic ideology.
I'm saying this as someone who was, in a younger and more radical stage, pretty Marxist (I was more Communist than Socialist, because I'm quite keen on a small state) and who has come to Catholicism because it contains a lot of very similar ideas but does not neglect the human dimension.
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when the communist manifesto was written it was the early days of the industrial revolution and Marx was looking mostly at Great Britain. In those times what we think of as capitalism in conjunction with the industrial revolution was quite a different animal. Marx looked at child labor sweatshops and the oppression of India through the cotton weaving industry and things like that.
No one had ever came up with these concepts before and certainly no one had ever tried them. Marx posited that communism is a way of getting rid of a government altogether. Not at all a means to a totalitarian dictatorship we, 150 years later, think of as communism post USSR terms only.
But like all well intentioned idealistic theories it has proved not only to not work well, but lead to very insidious results. It is easy for us to criticize this now but Marx was motivated by a will to fairness and freedom. He was not looking for the nightmare Leninist bastardization of 20th century communism. as well capitalism's primary points he took issue with in 1850 has been solved by many means.
If we could get past cold war era clouded views it teaches a great lesson about good intentions and rigid idealism. "The path to hell is paved with good intentions."
No one thinks a monolithic all powerful government is a good thing. especially Marx. Like I said he was a quasi-anarchist who thought communism was a way to get over the need for any government.
only in a perfect world is government not a necessary evil.
the argument against capitalism is fair by any means. capitalism, like democracy, is a horrible enslaving crap shoot of a system. it really truly is when you think about it critically. Marx made great point about the evils of it. but it just so happens it is the best and most free system that has ever been done so far in practice. but that doesn't say anything about capitalism, it speaks to how bad all the alternatives are.
No one had ever came up with these concepts before and certainly no one had ever tried them. Marx posited that communism is a way of getting rid of a government altogether. Not at all a means to a totalitarian dictatorship we, 150 years later, think of as communism post USSR terms only.
But like all well intentioned idealistic theories it has proved not only to not work well, but lead to very insidious results. It is easy for us to criticize this now but Marx was motivated by a will to fairness and freedom. He was not looking for the nightmare Leninist bastardization of 20th century communism. as well capitalism's primary points he took issue with in 1850 has been solved by many means.
If we could get past cold war era clouded views it teaches a great lesson about good intentions and rigid idealism. "The path to hell is paved with good intentions."
No one thinks a monolithic all powerful government is a good thing. especially Marx. Like I said he was a quasi-anarchist who thought communism was a way to get over the need for any government.
only in a perfect world is government not a necessary evil.
the argument against capitalism is fair by any means. capitalism, like democracy, is a horrible enslaving crap shoot of a system. it really truly is when you think about it critically. Marx made great point about the evils of it. but it just so happens it is the best and most free system that has ever been done so far in practice. but that doesn't say anything about capitalism, it speaks to how bad all the alternatives are.
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