Socialists?

[127.0.0.1]

I'm just curious to know if there are other folks here who consider themselves to be Socialists. It's like a ... curiosity thing.

btw, Socialist itself is not Communism.

 

[dbakerman76]

I am not very socialist but I'm sympathetic to the cause.

 

[LawsonAlan]

How socialist I am depends on who I'm compared to. Compared to most conservatives who feel that Obama is trying to make the country into a socialist state, I seem socialist.

To those folks, I ask them if they plan to tear up their social security checks and refuse medicare assistance on moral grounds. They often retort that they paid into the program, so they deserve the benefits.

So, I ask them if they'll tear up the checks after they have exceded the amount they put in, plus moderate interest.

I have yet to find any conservative willing to take that pledge.

Therefor, I see most conservatives just as socialist as I am, but at least I'm not being hypocritical.

 

[rayodeluz]

It's tough to answer. I'm not an economist, and am by no means an expert on the economy. I have read the platform of the U.S. Socialist party, and in theory it's not bad at all. But from what I've heard and seen written socialism hasn't worked in practice. China is a socialist country that seems to be doing well, but they have adopted some free market principles. One thing I do not like is China's human rights record and lack of freedom of speech. At any rate, I'm not sure about socialism, but one thing I can say is I've lost faith in capitalism (free market anyway) after seeing the economic disaster it has caused. Maybe some kind of mixed economy is the way to go.

 

[127.0.0.1]

China is Communist. Also, past Communist governments did turn into totalitarian dictatorships. This is not advocated by communism or socialism.

 

[rayodeluz]

China is Communist. Also, past Communist governments did turn into totalitarian dictatorships. This is not advocated by communism or socialism.

You're right. I just turned 50 years old in January, so I'm gonna claim a "senior moment" on this one

 

[rayodeluz]

I haven't had the chance to read this article yet, but it sure seems on topic. Got around posting the link to it by using the word dot in place of a period. Soon I'll be at the magical 50 post requirement to post links.

www(dot)progressivechristianalliance(dot)org/Blog/articles/christianity-and-socialism/

Christianity and Socialism
February 26, 2011 by Roger
Some who call themselves Christians in America have taken to raging against the threat they believe socialism poses to America and to Christianity. The see socialism as the antithesis of all things Christian and they are not entirely off base in their fears. Some movements and countries that have called themselves socialist have been explicitly anti-religious. The former Soviet Union is a clear example of this. Religious people (as well as many others, it is worth noting) were oppressed, imprisoned, tortured, and killed for their beliefs. But even so, does it stand that Christianity and socialism must always be opposed? In short, no. Christianity and socialism actually have much in common.
In the book of Acts, it can be seen that Christ’s Apostles, lived in a communal way. The book states that “Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need” and “Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common” (Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32). Holding things in common, giving to anyone who had need, that seems very similar to the radical socialist notion of mutual aid, often expressed in the phrase “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”
The accounts in Acts are born out in the Pauline and the Catholic epistles. Paul, in 2 Corinthians, reiterates the egalitarian spirit of the early Christian commune, saying, “For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality. As it is written, ‘He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.’” (8:13-15). In 1 Timothy, Paul condemns greed, proclaiming “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows” before exhorting Timothy to “Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share” (6:10, 6:17-18).
And Paul is not alone in his epistolary encouragement of equality and charity. James says “If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,’ but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” (2:15-18). Peter writes in his first epistle, “Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God” (4:9-10). In 1 John, we are again told “But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth” (3:17-18).
From the Acts of the Apostles through the Epistles it is clear that the Apostles and the early Church believed that charity and a striving for material equality were requirements for being a good Christian. However, this parallel between Christianity and socialism did not arise from Jesus’ followers, but rather from their faith in God’s teachings. Christ himself is the wellspring for Christian socialists.
Christ, in His teachings, repeatedly condemns the rich and the accumulation of wealth. In Luke, Christ declares “But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation” (6:24). In Matthew He states, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” and “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon” (19:23-24, 6:24). In describing the final judgement, Christ tells of how He will deal with the greedy by saying, “‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’…And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:41-43,46). Christ’s wrath against greed also takes tangible form when He drives the merchants from the Temple, crying, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers” and “Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” (Mark 11:17, John 2:16).
By the same token, Jesus extols generosity and sharing throughout His teachings. In Mark, He tells His followers to “Love your neighbor as yourself” (12:31). In Matthew, He tells a rich, young man “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me” (25:21-22). In Luke, He advises giving to those who cannot give back when He says, “When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just” (14:12-14). He further promised eternal salvation to the generous, saying “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me…Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me” (Matthew 25:34-36,40).
Through His teachings and actions, Jesus made it clear that to be righteous the prosperous must distribute their wealth to the poor. This teaching was not some new innovation, but a continuation of God’s teachings as given through the Prophets, David, and Moses. Indeed, in declaring His mission, Jesus cites Isaiah, announcing “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor” (Luke 4:18-19).
God’s condemnation of greed and selfishness can be seen in Ezekiel when He states He destroyed Sodom due to its people’s greed. He declares “Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy” (16:49). His anger can be seen again in Isaiah when God rails against those who would oppress the poor and weak, declaring, “Woe to those who decree unrighteous decrees, Who write misfortune, Which they have prescribed To rob the needy of justice, And to take what is right from the poor of My people, That widows may be their prey, And that they may rob the fatherless” (10:1-2). But God also encourages the righteous to “Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow” (Isaiah 1:17).
Through the Psalms, one may again find God’s mercy to the poor and to the generous. Psalm 41 states “Blessed is he who considers the poor; The LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.” Indeed, the Lord Himself considers the poor. Psalm 35 praises God’s protection of the poor when it says, “All my bones shall say, ‘LORD, who is like You, Delivering the poor from him who is too strong for him, Yes, the poor and the needy from him who plunders him?’” God’s protection of the poor is echoed in Psalm 12 which says “‘For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, Now I will arise,” says the LORD; ‘I will set him in the safety for which he yearns’” and in Psalm 146 when it proclaims “Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in the LORD his God…Who executes justice for the oppressed, Who gives food to the hungry. The LORD gives freedom to the prisoners.”
While the Prophets and Psalms proclaim the wickedness of greed and the goodness of generosity, it is through Moses that God explicitly proclaims the need to create equality by redistributing wealth. In Leviticus 25, God tells Moses that every 49 to 50 years land sold by the poor shall be returned to them even if they cannot pay for it. He tells Moses, “The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me. And in all the land of your possession you shall grant redemption of the land. But if he is not able to have it restored to himself, then what was sold shall remain in the hand of him who bought it until the Year of Jubilee; and in the Jubilee it shall be released, and he shall return to his possession.” God goes on to tell Moses that “‘If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you. You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit…And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave” (25:35-37,39).
Even before this, God tells Moses that the Israelites must share amongst themselves in a way that is remarkably similar to ““From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” In Exodus, God commands that when gathering manna the Israelites must divide the heavenly food equally. God commanded “Let every man gather it according to each one’s need, one omer for each person, according to the number of persons; let every man take for those who are in his tent” and “Then the children of Israel did so and gathered, some more, some less. So when they measured it by omers, he who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack. Every man had gathered according to each one’s need” (Exodus 16:16-18).
There is, then, a clear message throughout the Bible that to be righteous and to find salvation, those who have much must share it with those who are in need. Those who bow to greed and turn their backs on the poor, betray God and and face eternal punishment in “the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Does this mean that a Christian must be a socialist? Not necessarily, there may be other ways to structure an economy that is fair and insure the equality of all people. But it does mean that socialism is an economic arrangement that is completely in harmony with the teachings of Christ, the commandments of the Father, and the faith of the Apostles. The same cannot be said for capitalism with its foundation of greed and inequality.

 

[UberLutheran]

To be specific, the Democratic Socialist Party in America, and I have been for quite some years.

I know it's hard for fundagelicals and Republicans to believe this, but I'm actually a socialist as a result of my own religious beliefs: I'm quite aware that only conservative Christians, fundagelicals and Republicans count themselves as among "The Elect" and the rest of us are merely the capering damned; but then, I eschew the Prosperity Gospel and "how much you have is a demonstration of how much God loves you" and I despise The Gospel According to Ayn Rand and other things which pass for "Christianity" in the 21st century United States.

I'm actually reprobate enough to believe that when Jesus said, "What you do to the least of these, you do to Me" — he actually meant it; and when the writer of Ezekiel said, "Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: pride, fullness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. They were haughty, and committed great evil before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good." that seems to have a strong parallel with what has become the melding of politics and conservative Christianity in the United States and the very un-Christian way we act towards our citizens and the rest of the world; and all those passages in the Old and New Testament which deal with justice and compassion and upholding the poor actually might have something to say to us today.

I read Romans 2 and 3 and think, "Gosh, that sounds like OUR society, where those who are proudly righteous (and who make sure we know it!) and who gleefully use Scripture as a blunt weapon to bludgeon the poor, the sick, gays and lesbians, single women with children, Mexicans, Middle Easterners, blacks, Muslims and anybody who is not an ethnically-clean, white, fundamentalist Christian are the ones most incapable of keeping the Law (re-interpreted for 21st century American Christianity) and they're too proud and self-righteous to realize it!

I read James 2 and 5 and think of the people who claim they have a right to keep all their money without ever thinking of the responsibilities which go with citizenship (and with having "rights") and gosh -— that sure sounds like 21st century America!

I voted for Obama in 2008, thinking that he might actually keep his promises -— and then watched him water down health care "reform" until it's pretty much a toothless gift to the health insurance companies (and very expensive for the rest of us); enact financial "reform" which was overseen by Wall Street, banks and insurance companies so it's not really "reform" at all; and when he had the power of the bully pulpit to push along legislation he claimed he really believed in -— repeal of DOMA, closing Guantanamo, ending the pernicious aspects of the Patriot Act, etc. -— not only did he NOT use the bully pulpit but he capitulated to the far-right!

I'm still Lutheran, and I'm still Christian -— even though I find it excruciating to be associated in name with the fundagelicals on the far-right -— but I am thoroughly disgusted by what passes for Christianity in 21st century America, by the income disparities between the super-rich and the rest of us, and by a government which operates more or less for the benefit of large corporations and their CEOs and where our elected representatives are more or less wholly-owned subsidiaries of the companies they serve.

And that, in a nutshell, is why I'm a card-carrying, dues-paying, active member of the Democratic Socialist Party of America.

 

[QuakerOats]

Hey Uber! Nice to see you and Maude again! I often vote NDP (New Democratic) at the federal level, which is the equivalent of the DSP here in Canada.

 

[Rebekka]

In the eyes of most Americans, I am Very Socialist. I no longer vote for the Socialist Party, but that's because I've found a better alternative in the Animal Rights Party (basically a Very Very Green party, and without the human superiority complex that most homo sapiens suffer from).
I'm a strong anti-communist, but I hate capitalism too, especially the American Way.




Hi UL, long time no see.

 

[QuakerOats]

In the eyes of most Americans, I am Very Socialist. I no longer vote for the Socialist Party, but that's because I've found a better alternative in the Animal Rights Party (basically a Very Very Green party, and without the human superiority complex that most homo sapiens suffer from).
I'm a strong anti-communist, but I hate capitalism too, especially the American Way.

I honestly didn't realize that such a party existed, but that's very admirable. I looked it up to see if we had a similar party here in Canada, and we do! (Animal Alliance Environment Voters Party of Canada). It looks to be a very small party, but I'll have to do more research on it.

 

[Rebekka]

I honestly didn't realize that such a party existed, but that's very admirable. I looked it up to see if we had a similar party here in Canada, and we do! (Animal Alliance Environment Voters Party of Canada). It looks to be a very small party, but I'll have to do more research on it.

Yay for Canada!

The Party for the Animals in the Netherlands has two seats in parliament (which has a total of 150 seats) and one seat in the senate (total of 75 seats). Our province will soon have one Provincial Executive of the Party for the Animals (we had provincial elections 2nd of March), thanks to me!

Party for the Animals - WELCOME

 

[UberLutheran]

It appears that this forum, Liberal Catholics and the ELCA/ELCIC Lutherans are still relatively sane. I've heard VERY bad things about CF in the time I've been gone and stopped by to look. If I stay at CF, I'll probably stay in here but avoid politics, social issues, etc. -— kinda looks like the Christian Taliban have infiltrated in there, you know?

 

[Rebekka]

Yeah, CF has gone downhill.

I still post in OBOB although it makes my blood boil 99% of the time (I probably am a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]).

 

[QuakerOats]

The Party for the Animals in the Netherlands has two seats in parliament (which has a total of 150 seats) and one seat in the senate (total of 75 seats). Our province will soon have one Provincial Executive of the Party for the Animals (we had provincial elections 2nd of March), thanks to me!

Party for the Animals - WELCOME

That's awesome! Congrats!

I mostly stay around here, though I occasionally post elsewhere as I feel led.

 

[dcyates]

To the extent that socialism is implemented, it enervates the human spirit.

 

[QuakerOats]

To the extent that socialism is implemented, it enervates the human spirit.

I'm interested to know why you think so, if you'd like to share.

 

[dcyates]

I'm interested to know why you think so, if you'd like to share.

Sure. Obviously this is simplistic, but higher taxes reduce productivity, and overly generous social programs reduce self-reliance in those with need and the spirit of charity in those with wealth.
Are there exceptions? Of course there are. But, by and large, this has proven to be the case.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

How socialist I am depends on who I'm compared to. Compared to most conservatives who feel that Obama is trying to make the country into a socialist state, I seem socialist.

To those folks, I ask them if they plan to tear up their social security checks and refuse medicare assistance on moral grounds. They often retort that they paid into the program, so they deserve the benefits.

So, I ask them if they'll tear up the checks after they have exceded the amount they put in, plus moderate interest.

I have yet to find any conservative willing to take that pledge.

Therefor, I see most conservatives just as socialist as I am, but at least I'm not being hypocritical.

That's money they earned,should get back.I just don't see why,everyone should be force to get insurance,or they'll have to pay $90 a month,if they don't get insurance,choose to put money in roof over there head,food,gas and the other stuff.Also why would you put trust in the governmen,when they do such a poor job anyways.I can't trust the government enough to be socialist.

 

[rayodeluz]

The government may not do a great job, but the private sector hasn't been any better. Look at the mess we're in economically. There's plenty of blame to go around, but there's no doubt corporate greed and the quest for more and more profits was a main factor in creating the economic crises. I have read the U.S. Socialist party platform, and in theory it sounds great (I'm a mamber of the Green Party for the record). It does seem in line with scripture. My problem is that from everything I've heard it hasn't worked well in practice as someone said. If this is true then why, and what would it take for it to work? I've never been a fan of capitalism, and even less so after witnessing the past few years. Here's an interesting item about capitalism that I found: https://guthriesmachine.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/on-the-christian-condemnation-of-capitalism/