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Socialism - An Evil Concept

clirus

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Ok, so you're saying being rich and being poor are both evil. If you are rich, and concerned, then you can always give away money until you are somewhere in the middle, wealth wise. If you are poor, and worried about how being poor is evil, how do you get wealthier so that your soul isn't in jeopardy?

By taking any job that is available.

The whole justification for illegal immigrants in America was that no American was willing to do the work that the illegal immigrants would do.

So there were jobs (not executive positions maybe) but people refused the work.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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There certainly are those that are poor because they have physical and mental limitations, but I believe most people that are poor, got to be poor because of their weakness for pornography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.

You yet to provide a single statistic to support such a claim that most people are poor because it's their fault. Provide evidence or don't bother saying it again.

The concept of redistribution of wealth becomes just stealing unless there is a justification that everyone (including the rich) deserve to be robbed and the poor deserve to be given to.

Under Colonial systems, various justifications were given for just the opposite - redistribution from the poor to the rich.

Giving to the poor is evil, if the money is used by the poor to continue to buy pornography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.

So the 'goodness' of my action in giving to the poor is entirely contingent on how that person uses the money that I have given them?

Socialism is feeding a person for a day, but Christianity is teaching a person how to fish.

Providing opportunities to people (what many on here ill-conceive as 'Socialism') is not tantamount to feeding them for a day, but represents giving them a chance for self-enhancement (i.e. teaching a person how to fish).

Your solution Clirus, to throw a Bible at them and then move on, will not 'teach a person how to fish' in the sense that it will not improve their access to the requirements of their material subsistence. Converted then, they would still remain poor.

Socialism does more harm than good, thus the people of America would be best served if the government would get out of all Socialistic (Entitlement) programs.

If Socialism does more harm than good then by all means end your socialised defence system, emergency services, postal service, police, national parks, public roads, air space control. Etc.
 
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clirus

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The idea of "work" so defined by capitalist happyheads inherently holds to the classic fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this). That is, just because an amount of cash follows a certain input, this amount of cash is therefore perfectly fitted to this input. Call me an old fashioned traditionalist, but I've always believed that a person should be reward based on his labor, not on the relative output that attends his input, which in our society heavily tends towards the rich given the seventyfive fold gap between the top 20% and bottom 20%.

Once you realize this fallacy, the claim that socialism is stealing also is revealed as equally fallacious.

Determining the earthly value of earthy things is very complicated.

I believe God deals more in righteousness and unrighteousness than in work, so that the righteous garbage collector and the righteous president are equal.

I know of two rules that determine the earthly value of earthy things.

An auction and the law of supply and demand.

In an auction of the value is determined purely on what a person is willing to pay.

By the law of supply and demand, the price/value will go up if there is a shortage (demand greater than supply) and the price/value will go down if there is a surplus (supply greater than demand).

As applied to salaries, the salary for a job will be high if there are few people that meet the qualifications and the salary will be low if there are a lot of people that meet the qualifications.

That is why garbage collectors get paid less than presidents.

The cost of houses was going up as long as the demand was high due to sub prime loans, but the cost of houses dropped when the sub prime loans defaulted and the demand was gone.

This is far from a perfect earthy system, but I have not heard of a better way.

Even with an imperfect system, two wrong do not make a right.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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By taking any job that is available.

Jobs aren't always available. And sometimes they're certainly not available in close proximity to the person. A person can have the desire to work to improve his condition but lack the opportunity to do so.

But when people like me suggest that we, as a society, ought to provide that opportunity, people shout us down as Socialists.
 
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clirus

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Clirus, again I'll say this to you: I'm an atheist. I don't smoke, I don't have unprotected sex, and I don't have any sex outside of a relationship. I don't buy pornography, I don't do drugs. I probably drink a bit more than I should, but I don't eat meat, I go running several times a week, and I graduated college last year with a degree in mechanical engineering.

I am healthy, and well-off, and I don't see any of the things I do now changing that, unless my odd mad night out on the booze degenerates into a full-blown alcohol addiction.

How does this fit in with your view of the "atheistic lifestyle"?

Sounds to me that you are poised for earthly success, "just like Tiger Woods"

I pray you accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible so that when the temptations increase as your success increases, you will know good from evil and will have the Holy Spirit to help you resist the temptation.
 
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clirus

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[/font]I don't believe in heaven. Or hell. Which is the whole point of my argument -that if you want to be a good person, you should do good things because they're the right things to do, not because God will reward you for it. And you should avoid doing bad things because they cause suffering and because they're, well, bad, not because God will punish you for it.

In fact, I'm not even sure I am a good person.

Any person that thinks that works makes them a good person is never sure they are a good person. Only through the wisdom of God and the Bible can anyone determine what is doing the right things and what is doing the wrong things. People thought offering sub prime loans was a good thing till it produced the Economic Disaster of 2008.

God simply says a person is worthy of Heaven if they accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commits to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible. God even recognizes that following the commandments/doctrines (spiritual sin) of the Bible will be difficult so God provides the Holy Spirit to help resist temptation, and an offer of forgiveness of the spiritual sin if the spiritual sin is brought to God in prayer by the Christian.
 
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clirus

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It depends on the circumstances.

I'd steal to feed my starving family in a heartbeat.

It seems like the only thing sacred to some is property.

Matthew 16:26 states, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Stealing is not a necessary option.

As a statement of faith, I am going to state that I believe God will provide for/bless anyone that accepts Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commits to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

I cannot prove that, but I do believe it.
 
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Socialism - An Evil Concept

Socialism is one of the great evil concepts because it represents robbing from everyone (including the rich) and giving to the poor. I have never seen any valid justification of robbing from everyone (including the rich) to give to the poor.

So taxation = theft?

Socialism doesn't "rob from everyone to give to the poor". The fundamental principle is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". That means that everyone contributes that which they are able to contribute, everyone receives that which they need.

Socialism has wide public appeal because there is a feeling that someone is going to get something for nothing, but wide public rejection with the reality that some will receive and everyone else has to pay.

Incorrect. It has a wide public appeal because the vast majority of wealth in the world is controlled by an incredibly small minority. There are billions of people in the world living in poverty. There are a few million people and corporations, if that, that have enough wealth to provide the food, clothing and shelter that all those people require. Why should billions struggle to even barely survive in extreme poverty so that a small number can live with such extreme wealth?

Under socialist policies it is not only some that receive - it is all. In my country we have a socialist health policy - that means that taxpayer funded health care is available to all. We have a socialist education policy - that means taxpayer funded education is available to all. Not just a few. All. All taxpayers contribute to this money. The nature of our taxation system, which includes a consumption tax (a Goods and Services Tax), means that everyone in our society is a taxpayer.

Your understanding of what socialism is is fundamentally flawed.

Socialist/Democrats want to imply the only way a person can become rich is by abusing the poor.

No they don't. People can become rich through hard work, through luck, through creativity and entrepreneurship. They can also become rich through exploitation. Socialists (and I'm not talking about Democrats here because, if it wasn't clear you had no idea what socialism is about, you have just confirmed it by suggesting that Democrats are socialists) are concerned about a disproportionate distribution of wealth which leaves people without the means to live, and they try to redress this balance.

Socialist/Democrats also define everyone as rich that is not poor.

I have no way of responding to this statement without understanding what you think socialists think "poor" means, but I think you will find socialists have a slightly more complex worldview than that.

There certainly are those that are poor because they have physical and mental limitations, but I believe most people that are poor, got to be poor because of their weakness for pornography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.

This is simply ludicrous. Billions of people in the world are poor because of the structure of the global economy, not because of pornography or drugs or any other vice you can think of (unless being born into poverty is a vice for you). It is statements like this which demonstrate your complete disconnect from reality.

The concept of redistribution of wealth becomes just stealing unless there is a justification that everyone (including the rich) deserve to be robbed and the poor deserve to be given to.

I've already addressed this fundamentally flawed understanding of socialism/wealth redistribution.

Lots of people like the concept of Robin Hood who robbed from the evil rich and gave to the virtuous poor, but I worry that a lot was robbed and only a little ever got to the poor. I worry that the wealth redistribution (Socialism) of the Democrats really means robbing from the rich, stuffing their pockets, then if there is anything left, they give to the poor.

While your "robbing from the rich, giving to the poor" analogy is false, it has indeed often been the case that socialism has been hampered by corruption. All forms of human organisation have been hampered by corruption, however, including capitalism. One should always be wary of this, but it is no reason to abandon socialism altogether.

Giving to the poor is evil, if the money is used by the poor to continue to buy pornography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.

When there are billions of people in the world that barely struggle to scrounge enough money to eat, clothe and shelter themselves, I don't think porn and drugs are really that much of a concern for the vast majority of the poor.

I'm not going to touch the rest of your "evil poor" nonsense.

The Bible advocates person charity. The Bible does not advocate Socialism.

The Bible advocates rendering to Caesar that which is due to Caesar. Is there any reason to believe that Caesar can't be a socialist?

The solution of the problem of both the rich, the poor an all those in between is not through Socialism, but rather by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committing to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Can you tell me how this will give food clothes and shelter to the billions of people in the world without them?

Socialism is feeding a person for a day, but Christianity is teaching a person how to fish.

Empty rhetoric. Christianity does not change the structures of the global economy which ensure that billions live in poverty with basically no chance of improving their lot.

Socialism does more harm than good

Baseless assertion with no evidence...

thus the people of America would be best served if the government would get out of all Socialistic (Entitlement) programs.

... leading to unjustified conclusion.

Clirus, you really don't understand the world you live in. Believing in Christ will do nothing to alleviate the systemic poverty of the world. You completely fail to understand the principles of socialism.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Giving to the poor is evil, if the money is used by the poor to continue to buy pornography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.

Simplified, does this mean that giving to the poor is evil, if the recipient of that giving is poor by his own faults?

Christ gives to all of us, even though we are spiritually poor by our own making (sin). Does that mean his giving to us (the spiritually poor) is also evil because we are poor by our own faults?
 
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Willtor

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Matthew 16:26 states, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Stealing is not a necessary option.

As a statement of faith, I am going to state that I believe God will provide for/bless anyone that accepts Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commits to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

I cannot prove that, but I do believe it.

That's just silly. Even ignoring what's right in front of you in life, what about the Bible? In Christ's parable of Lazarus and the rich man, who had his needs met and who didn't? Who was righteous and who wasn't? Were they the same person?
 
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clirus

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Jobs aren't always available. And sometimes they're certainly not available in close proximity to the person. A person can have the desire to work to improve his condition but lack the opportunity to do so.

But when people like me suggest that we, as a society, ought to provide that opportunity, people shout us down as Socialists.

Socialism put great faith in the concept that providing opportunity is the solution to poverty.

Obama has great faith that providing health insurance is a solution to poverty.

The problem is not opportunity, but the people the opportunity is provided to.

Too many of the health care/welfare problems/costs are associated with bad lifestyles that a doctor cannot change. The only way to change the lifestyle is to "Just say No".

Let me give some examples:

Smoking is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care cost, but warning labels, taxes, etc. have not changed peoples decision to stop smoking. Health Insurance will not change smoking lifestyles.

Obesity is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care cost.

Alcohol is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care cost.

Adultery is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care/welfare cost. An illegitimate child is instant poverty where the government will pay for the illegitimate child forever.

Homosexuality is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care/welfare cost.

I believe the solution for bad lifestyle decisions is to accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible. Beyond that there seems to be no solution that works. Alcoholics Anonymous is somewhat successful, but that is based on religious principles also.

I would rather put my faith in God than in providing opportunity. America as a Christian Nation is the land of opportunity, but America must always be on guard against the people that would refuse to do their part to find the opportunity that exist.
 
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CaptainNemo1138

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Homosexuality is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care/welfare cost.

No it is not. Do you consider being heterosexual "a lifestyle decision"?

I would rather put my faith in God than in providing opportunity. America as a Christian Nation is the land of opportunity, but America must always be on guard against the people that would refuse to do their part to find the opportunity that exist.

The Treaty of Tripoli disagrees with ya' there.
 
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clirus

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Simplified, does this mean that giving to the poor is evil, if the recipient of that giving is poor by his own faults?

Christ gives to all of us, even though we are spiritually poor by our own making (sin). Does that mean his giving to us (the spiritually poor) is also evil because we are poor by our own faults?

I am glad you are beginning to think is terms of spiritual and physical.

All of God's promises are relative to the spiritual because that will produce the best physical outcome.

Job was a test of faith (spiritual), where God restored all of Job's physical assets after Job passed the spiritual test.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Socialism put great faith in the concept that providing opportunity is the solution to poverty.

Obama has great faith that providing health insurance is a solution to poverty.

The problem is not opportunity, but the people the opportunity is provided to.

Too many of the health care/welfare problems/costs are associated with bad lifestyles that a doctor cannot change. The only way to change the lifestyle is to "Just say No".

Let me give some examples:

Smoking is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care cost, but warning labels, taxes, etc. have not changed peoples decision to stop smoking. Health Insurance will not change smoking lifestyles.

Obesity is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care cost.

Alcohol is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care cost.

Adultery is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care/welfare cost. An illegitimate child is instant poverty where the government will pay for the illegitimate child forever.

Homosexuality is a lifestyle decision that is an enormous health care/welfare cost.

I believe the solution for bad lifestyle decisions is to accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible. Beyond that there seems to be no solution that works. Alcoholics Anonymous is somewhat successful, but that is based on religious principles also.

I would rather put my faith in God than in providing opportunity. America as a Christian Nation is the land of opportunity, but America must always be on guard against the people that would refuse to do their part to find the opportunity that exist.

No. America as a Christian Nation is not necessarily the 'land of opportunity'. America as a Christian Nation, at least in the way that you portray it, denies non-Christians any meaningful opportunity to exist in society at large. Indeed, it classifies them as a threat to be feared and if possible (or justifiable) eliminated.

Besides which, what good is it for someone to change their lifestyle if there are no meaningful opportunities for self-enhancement within their proximity anyway? For these people, the lack of opportunity will continue to persist, and therefore so too will their poverty, regardless of their lifestyle.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I am glad you are beginning to think is terms of spiritual and physical.

All of God's promises are relative to the spiritual because that will produce the best physical outcome.

Job was a test of faith (spiritual), where God restored all of Job's physical assets after Job passed the spiritual test.

You didn't actually answer the question.
 
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Received

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clirus said:
This is far from a perfect earthy system, but I have not heard of a better way.

I have. It's called increasing the tax rates for the top quintiles so that the people on the bottom who are often working much harder than the bums on top (who everyone doesn't call bums because they hold together our market -- and destroy it), so that the output equals the input and rich people are no longer stealing from the poor.

Remember, post hoc ergo propter hoc.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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Capitalism - An Evil Concept

Capitalism is one of the great evil concepts because it represents robbing from everyone (excluding the rich) and giving to the elite. I have never seen any valid justification of robbing from everyone (including the poor and working class) to give to the rich.

There, fixed that for you. :thumbsup:

For the record, I've never met an "-ism" that I liked, and certainly communism and Marxism have serious deficiencies as well.
 
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