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Featured So....what if your wrong?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Daniel Martinovich, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I guess.

    Revelation 19 is the final destruction of the Roman Empire, 1453 AD and the end of the age of the four gentile empires. Revelation 20-22 are all concurrent. It is the age of promise we are living in. The 1000 years illustrates the promise of the kingdom of God filling the earth in Daniel 2 and 7. Gog and Magog illustrate the nations and peoples who seek to stop it. If you know your history. You would know that the prophecy of Daniels 11th of ten horns (Septimius Severus 193 AD) started the war in which the saints were overcome and conquered. You might not know that part but you should know that anytime any peoples or a nation stared getting access to Bible based information; and getting a little Bible based Christianity going. The powers that be would simply wipe them off the face of the earth. Could talk about dozens of different peoples here. I said that to tell you this. The very first people where the general public got access to Bibles, in Northern Europe were also slated for destruction. But another first in human history occurred, (outside of ancient Israel.) The people armed with scripture were not destroyed. They fought the powers that be to a standstill. Cost 30 million lives but nevertheless. They stood. This has been the polar opposite story of the age of the four gentile empires ever since that time. The Peoples that are the most influenced by the Bible have been as a general rule winning the wars of extermination directed agsint them and have created the free world. As you point out with the USA.

    So how does Gog and Magog tie into this? Well if you notice they look like they are going to win. (They surround the camp of the saints.) But "fire comes down from heaven" and destroys them. If you just look up the word fire. It is the most used illustration in the OT of temporal judgment against nations and massive defeat in war. So look at the age of promise. How many nations and people have decide they were going to conquer the peoples most influenced by Gods word and it always looked like they were going to win? The Holy Roman Empire and the Kings of Europe allied with them. Napoleon, The British empire before the great revivals that transformed it. The Kaisers pagan Germany, The NAZI's, The USSR, Imperial Japan. Now an alliance of the international left and Islam. (Soon to loose and I shutter to see how. ) Ezekiel's vision of Gog and Magog shows this is going to go on quite awhile illustrated by them gather the weapons for 7 years to burn them.
    The New Jerusalem does not have 2 chapters of prophecy about it but around 3 dozen. It is interpreted in those 3 dozen chapters as being an illustration of Gods people and in Revelation, of Gods people in the nations that have met the conditions where they can have the promises of God. Like the USA.



    If they had not accepted false prophecy in the guise of pop culture end time prophecy teachings. They would have been the dominate influence in politics. As it stands because God cannot develop them in such a way to meet the challenges. We are stuck fighting a war of attrition just to try to hold onto what our forefathers gave us. Which is not going well. The reason they have such a hard time being involved in politics and remaining unpolluted from it is a differ ant story entirety.



    I meant the war of attrition is directed at us. Ancient Israel's enemies fought a war of attrition against it and won. Weakened them morally and spiritually until they were an easy prey for the surrounding kingdoms.
     
  2. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    I don't see that he has chosen to transform anything.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Why not ?

    It is written that our friends will turn on us and 'gnash their teeth' at us and kick us out,
    when they realize that the Creator we serve demands a total life change.
     
  4. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    That was not what I was responding to . I was responding to the contention that humans have somehow become transformed from the ancient times and will somehow transform further in the future caused by other humans completeing God's work. There is zero evidence that the first took place and no scriptural basis for expecting the second. I see Jesus, and not anyone else, as the only answer.
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Thanks for the clarification ! WONDERFUL !
     
  6. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Wow. I hate to keep posting these few scriptures. But I guess it is necessary.
    I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.
    Isaiah 42:1“Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. 2“He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. 3“A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. 4“He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law.” 5Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it, 6“I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, 7To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
    Psalm 72:2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor. 5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
    Psalm 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. 27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
    Isaiah 60: 3 And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. 5 Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea (meaning the nations,) shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you. (ESV)
    Isaiah 49:6 He says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”...8 Thus said the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard you, and in a day of salvation have I helped you: and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
    Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him that brings good tidings, that publishes peace; that brings good tidings of good, that publishes salvation; that said to Zion, Your God reigns! ..... 10 The LORD has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.... 13 Behold, my servant (the messiah) shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonished at you; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
    Psalm 67: 1 God be merciful to us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine on us; Selah. 2 That your way may be known on earth, your saving health among all nations. 3 Let the people praise you, O God; let all the people praise you. 4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for you shall judge the people righteously, and govern the nations on earth. Selah. 5 Let the people praise you, O God; let all the people praise you. 6 Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us. 7 God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.
    Psalm 82: 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for you shall inherit all nations.
    Psalm 86: 9 All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord; and shall glorify your name.

    Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    A word about this last prophecy. The Lords house is his people. Indisputable NT apostolic declaration. The Mountain of the Lord in prophecy is his invisible kingdom. All nations shall flow to it and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: Where do people go to be taught of the Lord and to learn his ways and walk in his paths? Well for the last 2000 years to a Church, or the Bible or a Christian. They shall beat their swords and their spears into farming instruments? That is a prophecy about how this invisible kingdoms influnce is spread in the earth. The farmer sows the Word. Not by force, not by the sword.
    Nations not lifting up sword against nation? The nations that are founded in Biblical principle. Where the Gospel has been been preached for centuries in power are not conquering their neighbors and looting their wealth, selling the captives into slavery. The norm of the ancient world. Or as another similar prophecy says.

    Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    Makes for a nice picture hanging in a child's Sunday school class. But these animals illustrate nations under the influnce of Gods Word, his People, the Gospel, .....or Gods invisible kingdom. (In this age of promise.)
     
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Sorry, that looks like perverted use of Scripture, possibly because of using it for 'spin' (false news) trying to create (false) support for some doctrine or goup.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Amen and yea!

    Scripture shows the victory and liberty that awaits us whenever our people lead as magistrates (Gen 41:39-44; Daniel 2:46-49) and elect godly leaders (Ex 18:21-25/Deut 1:13-17/Deut 16:18-20). Civil Government is ordained of God (Rom 13:1-7; 1 Pet 2:13-17). It is not evil.

    The "sovereign work of Almighty God" includes civil government (Rom 13:1-7; 1 Pet 2:13-17), and the virtue of God's people being the leaders and influencers is taught plainly in scripture (Gen 41:39-44; Daniel 2:46-49). Electing good people is part of the work of the people of God (Ex 18:21-25/Deut 1:13-17/Deut 16:18-20).

    God loves the world and saves it (Jn 3:16-17).

    The world is the Church's dominion (1 Cor 3:22).

    The Church inherited the world through Abraham and his seed, Jesus (Rom 4:13-18; Gal 3:9-16).

    Jesus has the preeminence in all things and over all dominions, and powers and principalities (Col 1:16-18,20; 1 Pet 3:22).

    Jesus rules over all kings of the earth (Rev 1:5; Matt 28:18).

    Christ, His teachings, and His people are here solving the world's problems in myriad ways. The whole rise of Western Civilization -- science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women -- is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity.

    If spreading the gospels reforms human beings, then how can it not also reform culture that is simply the activities of human beings? Does it not make a world of difference when a devout Christian runs a business, town, nation, court, TV network, school, or family??? Obviously it does.

    When Christians Refuse to get involved in politics, as it appears you are advocating, who do you think steps in to fill that void?

    Where is the scriptural command for Christians to become police officers? firefighters? - Are you therefore advocating that no Christian should become a cop since there is no scriptural command to do so?

    For evil to triumph, good men must do nothing.
    Show me the scriptural command for Christians to simply do nothing and let evil triumph in the world until some undisclosed "future" time? What chapter and verse is that?

    I do not see in scripture anywhere this notion that Christians can do nothing to stop the "Strengthening of the power structure against Christianity" as you put it.

    I don't see the Bible teaching anything of the sort of this kind of defeatism you seem to be advocating.

    I find the exact opposite is taught.
    We are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

    Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
    for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

    The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

    Its High time we started acting like it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  9. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Very nice to see people not afraid to speak the truth.
     
  10. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    I guess some must think Jesus was just kidding when he said my kingdom is not of this world.
     
  11. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    No,
    You have it backwards. His Kingdom is spread through the preaching and teaching of the truth. The farmer sows the word is a parable about his kingdom. It transforms hearts and minds. Civilizations are built on the basis of those transformed hearts and minds. Built on Biblical principle. If God can’t get people to voluntarily submit to what’s right then he has no kingdom per say. If he can’t get people to trust him then he cannot accomplish anything else because it is all based on voluntarily putting faith in him.

    You are inadvertently preaching Jesus kingdom is just like this worlds kingdoms. Because you say he will come and conquer the world with military force and impose his thinking on a conquered world through force. The only differance between your vision of his kingdom and say Rome’s or any other is that Jesus has overwhelming military power to do anything he pleases. And people will submit or else.

    When he said his kingdom is not of this world and if it was his servents would fight. He did not mean it’s military force is based in heaven and they will do the fighting in the “last day” to spread his kingdom. He meant his kingdom is spread in an entirely different way. It is a kingdom of influence, heavenly and earthly influence that transforms people then through people their cultures and through their cultures their nations. In that order.

    Quite different than any kingdom that is of this earth.
    The Parables About the Government of God
     
  12. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    People are never transformed through the influence of others. They are only made to conform not transform.
     
  13. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    God gives people basic truth, both via supernatural and natural means. It’s design is create a basis on which human beings can naturally develop into the best that they can be. Both morally and intellectually and creatively.

    That is what this whole thread is about. The lies pop culture end time prophecy teachings propagate, if accepted naturally puts a roadblock in the individuals moral and intellectual development. They cannot grow spiritually, therefore intellectually into something capable of contending with the wicked. God as their heavenly spiritual father cannot guide their personal development through his word or any other means past the roadblock of that lie. It has to go first. Further more that lie is an open door to demonic activity and visitations. He will come as God, or an angel of light through the lie and people will not know it’s of the devil.

    Apparently, according to your statement. You experiantially know nothing of God’s methods but only if the worlds methods. Where supposed knowledge is imposed on people with a design to control them. That is called coercion. That is the way the world does things along these lines. They seek to manipulate people against their nature for their own self centered purposes. Many churches operate in this manner. In fact to the degree that they do is the degree they do not trust God nor have the knowkedge of God. They are powerless in the ways of God, in the ways of his kingdom and therefore need to use earthly methods to exert their influence and supposed “authority. “
     
  14. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe you are referencing Revelation 20:9, correct? If so, that quote is at the end of Revelation and so we may conclude it will be the very last time God judges the wicked from off the earth. This has clearly not happened yet, unless your position is that all coordinated opposition to Christianity in high positions of authority on earth has been eradicated (a foolish position to take)

    I'm not really an historicist and I think there is far too much contention within historicism itself. I guess you don't take the "fire raining down from heaven" literally. Are you saying that Genesis 19:24 is purely symbolic as well? Considering you just said that fire is always an "illustration of judgement" and therefore not literal. If so, then how, in your view, is God passing this judgement. Can you describe what exactly is happening? Also, if we look at all the times God rains down judgement, I think its simpler to take these scriptures on faith and believe what they plainly say about how God's firey judgement befell mankind long ago.

    Also, do you not believe that God is capable of performing these supernatural feats? Do you believe the plagues of Egypt were illiteral "illustrations" of God's judgement? 17 Bible verses about Fire From Heaven

    Finally, in view of Rev 20:9 as an illustration. What precisely stops the armies of Satan, Gog and Magog, from destroying the remnant camp of the saints if not a literal downpour of fire? Do they all just suddenly realize what they're doing is wrong and convert... and break out the guitar and sing camp fire songs? You have to explain what is being illustrated, because it sounds to me that you are saying that although Satan has surrounded the last remaining Christians on earth and has the opportunity to kill them all, yet he changes his mind, without coercion by the mighty hand of God.
     
  15. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Well that is not my position but yours. You cannot judge or discern my position based on your position. The two do not intermix at all. My position on Gog and Magog is that it is a prophecy that uses illustrations, (like most prophecy does,) to show that in the age of promise. That generally speaking. The nations most influenced by Gods word, influenced by Gods kingdom would not be conquered by wicked nations and empires as they had been for the previous 2000+ years. Further that the thing that can be grasped by this as per current conditions is not that nations like the United States cannot fall into the hands of the wicked due to being weakened by immorally and evil. But that the wicked would no longer dominate or entirely control the earth as they had for the previous 8 millennia. (Outside of ancient Israel.) The timing of this age would begin to happen is based on Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. When the fourth empire named and therefore dated in scripture ends. Which happened in 1453 AD. Again I'll repeat that the thing that enabled this to take place was the Bible getting into the hands of the general public. Began to happen immediately after the fall of that fourth empire. God knew this and prophesied it thousands of years in advance.

    Well I'm not a historicist. Here is my approach to Bible prophecy. It is a bit harsh.

    You missed a few verses about fire in your list. These are OT prophecies about OT nations recorded as fulfilled in the OT. This is a prophecy of the destruction of the nations and specifically Edom at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar. Isaiah 34:1 Come near, you nations, to hear; and listen, you people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is on all nations, and his fury on all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down on Idumea, and on the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

    Micah's prophecy about Assyria conquering the northern kingdom of Israel. Micah 1:2 Hear, all you people; listen, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD comes forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread on the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. 5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? 6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. 7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. 8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. 9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come to Judah; he is come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem. There are a lot more than these by the way.

    Sure he is capable of supernatural feats and does them. But what the Bible does not afford one to do, especially when it comes to its prophecy that makes heavy use of illustrations; is to mistake the meaning of an illustration. To take a prophecy about literal events that uses illustrations and to misinterpret the meaning of the prophecy based on the illustrations. Like for example in Isaiah 34:4 in the prophecy about the destruction of Edom above. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. This same illustration is used about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by Jesus and in John's Revelation. Revelation has about a chapters worth out of 22 chapters of prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in it. Matthew 24:29....stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Now commons sense would tell someone that if this were not a prophecy that was using illustrative language to foretell and event but an actual literal event. All life on planet earth would immediately cease except some microbes in the ground. This is Revelation 6. Lots of life after this. But its not literal language. In fact it is very common in western literature that was developed by Bible reading people.
    THE STARS IN THE HEAVENS
    THE Powers of the Heavens

    Likewise Jesus sitting on a cloud reaping the great harvest on the earth or the angel sitting on another cloud reaping the grapes of wrath. These are illustrations of the great harvest of souls going on in the world and the great judgements befalling the empires and kingdoms of the world for their murder of saints, among many other evils. Obviously not what we will see literally as a picture but literally as something that was coming to the world. Which brings me to something I have been repeating for 3 decades. The New Jerusalem has 3 dozen plus chapters of prophecy about it. Not 2 in revelation. The 3 dozen plus chapters of prophecy about it interpret what is a prophecy about. Revelations 2 chapters just take a couple dozen verses from the others and place them in the 2 chapters. What I tell people is. That if you want to understand Bible prophecy. You have to start at the back of the book. That is why God gave us the 3 dozen chapters. In the proper time and season he wanted his people to understand prophecy completely . Revelation 20 is one of the the most uninterpreted (by the Bible) sections of Bible prophecy. That is why it is such a huge factor to the uninformed. They can make it say whatever they want. On link below are 3 of the 3 dozen+ chapters of prophecy about the New Jerusalem. It really will blow your mind and I guarantee you've never really noticed what they say and imply. Once you avail your self of all the prophecies about the New Jerusalem . You will no longer be able to take Revelation 20 the way that you are.
    The Bride of Christ



    Don't be silly. how on earth would you surmise something like that from what I said? What I said is that the powers, like today's alliance of international leftists and Muslim brotherhood types will never conquer the world and bring it under the type of despotic human government control that the saints lived under for thousands of years again. I shutter to think of of some of the possibilities that will occur to that bring about their defeat. Nevertheless. They, like the NAZI's and the USSR and all the others will be defeated and the nations most influenced by the Bible, including just its principle; whoever they may be at that juncture will come out on top. And God will do some pretty awesome things to insure their defeat just like he has been doing for the last 500 years.
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    This prophecy in Isaiah 34 and may others was not fulfilled in ancient times. It simply does not match the historical record. When was the fire?
    The Lord Himself will instigate this yet to happen Judgment/ punishment, on His terrible Day of wrath against the nations:

    Isaiah 34:5-8 The Lord has a Day of vengeance, the Redeemer of Zion has a time for retribution. His sword will appear in the sky, see how it descends in judgement onto a people whom the Lord has doomed to destruction. Great will be the slaughter in Edom and He has a sacrifice in Bozrah, His sword of punishment will be sated with blood, the earth will drink deeply of their blood.

    Isaiah 63:1-6 Who is this, coming from Bozrah and Edom with His garments splashed with blood, striding along in His mighty power? It is the Lord, proclaiming victory, He who is strong to save. He treads the winepress of the nations, with no one to help Him. He tramples them in His fury, shatters them in His anger and spills their blood all over the ground. The Lord has resolved on a Day of vengeance, because the year for redeeming His own has come.

    Jeremiah 49:12-13 & 22 These are the Words of the Lord: Those who were not doomed to drink the cup of My wrath, must drink it none the less: are you alone to go unpunished? You will not be spared, I will judge you as well. I will swoop down upon Bozrah and on that Day, Edom will lose all their strength. I swear that Bozrah will become desolate, an object of reproach and all her towns will be ruined forever. [Not for all time, see: Ezekiel 36:33-36, Isaiah 61:4]

    Amos 1:12 I shall send fire to consume the palaces of Bozrah.
    Ref: REB, NIV.

    Bozrah – Hebrew = a sheepfold, also means: glad tidings. At present Bozrah can be identified as the place's where the Israelites reside. Amos 9:9

    Edom – the descendants of Esau, a metaphor for non-Israelite peoples. Edom may represent every other nationality of the world.


    ‘The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath’, Cannot the same Day as the Return of the Messiah. Psalms 11:4-6, Rev. 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 13:9-13, Isaiah 61:2b, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 30:1-3, Joel 2:11 &31, Micah 5:15, Nahum 1:2-6, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Malachi 4:1, Romans 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10

    ‘His sword appears in the sky and descends in judgement’, Isaiah 30:25-28, Jeremiah 4:20-28, Jeremiah 23:19, Jeremiah 47:6-7, Jeremiah 50:35-38, Ezekiel 21:3-7 & 14-16

    ‘He treads the winepress of the nations’, Revelation 14:17-20, Jeremiah 9:21-22, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Jeremiah 49:35-37, Habakkuk 3:12, Psalm 65:1-3

    ‘I shall send fire’, Ezekiel 20:46-48, Joel 1:19-20, Amos 1:4,7,10,12,14. Amos 2:2,5. Obadiah 1:18, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27

    ‘I will judge you as well’, Ezekiel 23:32-34, Obadiah 1:16, Jeremiah 30:11, Ezekiel 7:1-27, Hosea 4:1-3, Hosea 12:2, Amos 4:12

    ‘The year for redeeming My own has come’, We are nearing the end of this age, the Lord will take action in His creation, as He did so long ago: in the days of Noah. Isaiah 66:15-16, Micah 5:10-15, Habakkuk 3:12, Ezekiel 7:14
     
  17. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, only if one believes that Revelation has already come to pass. I think we're at an eschatological disagreement but I thank you for your responses.

    Well, I certainly hope so.
     
  18. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    So Edom ad Bozrah are illustrations? But the use of fire illustratively to describe the literal fact of Nebuchadnezzar destroying them is not applicable? Seems your picking and choosing what you want to be literal and what you want to be illustrative according to your tradition rather than according to the Biblical and historical record. Just like today. Bible based Christianity is spreading like wildfire around the world. Even despite genocidal opposition. And the fruits of that Bible based Christianity, freedom is spreading. Not measured in years or decades but measured in centuries. Yet you ignore that in favor of your tradition that says the world is growing more and more evil as time goes by.
     
  19. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, if you look at Western countries, they're kinda trending in the direction of apostasy when it comes to their Christian foundations. So yeah, maybe what your saying is true and the 3rd world are spreading the gospel more than ever. But you're ignoring the very real fact that those who own and control this world are beset against Christianity and are intent on destroying it. If Christianity one day gets outlawed in the West, how will it possibly flourish again? Which government or regime will defend it then?
     
  20. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I’m trying to point out the reason why this is happening in the west. Why modern Christianity is so powerless against the evil rising up in our midsts.

    I said this to a guy a few comments ago.

    God gives people basic truth, both via supernatural and natural means. It’s design is create a basis on which human beings can naturally develop into the best that they can be. Both morally and intellectually and creatively.

    That is what this whole thread is about. The lies pop culture end time prophecy teachings propagate, if accepted naturally puts a roadblock in the individuals moral and intellectual development. They cannot grow spiritually, therefore intellectually into something capable of contending with the wicked. God as their heavenly spiritual father cannot guide their personal development through his word or any other means past the roadblock of that lie. It has to go first. Furthermore that lie is an open door to demonic activity and visitations. He will come as God, or an angel of light through the lie and people will not know it’s of the dev
    il.

    When the Bible got into the hands of the general public right when the Roman empire fell. It was the reason the protestant revolution was successful as there had been many protestant revolutions before that that were not successful. Successful in the sense of the fruit or a cultural and then national change. The view of the Roman Catholic world as it remains today among them was Augustine of Hippo's view of the city of God. Probably pretty close to my view although I have never read it. My oldest son has. Mine is better according to him. The protestants who created the free world held that view and morphed it into ah-millennialism. That was the dominate view in the Christian world up until a hundred years ago when it was replaced with the pop culture end time prophecy views of today's Christian world. The ah-millennial view wast the dominate view of the world of our founding fathers. the 1st and second great awakenings. Even the world of the early 20th century Pentecostals.

    It just so happens todays end time views rose to prominence along with the progressive movement. The view of the left that says government is the agent of change and exists to impose that change on the individual. Rather than the Christian view that truth is the agent of change and that change is wrought on an individual basis. When those individuals whom the truth changed change their culture, then the type of government of that culture should change to reflect the change the truth brought in the culture.

    So we got this double whammy that I say is a move of Satan and needs to be recognized as such and defeated. On the one hand we have anti-Christ leftists who claim to be imposing Bible based change on the nation. But because the very idea of the imposition of coercive change by human government. It attracts the most corrupt kinds of human beings. As we now see. And we also have Christians in mass withdrawn from the field of competition due to the fact that they no longer believe they belong on it. So what we see is the natural result of a false teaching. Not because its the end times.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
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