So confused on the Sabbath...

[Iosias]

This command was given to ethnic Israel not to the world at large.

1. What were they to remember?
2. How can they be called to remember something that did not exist prior to the command?
3. The Sabbath existed from creation.

As I said above, read Watson:
a. http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/ThomasWatsonLordsDay.htm
b. http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/ThomasWatson4thCommandment.htm

 

[Sleaker]

I think you may have missed the whole idea of why God asked israel to keep a sabbath Holy. Holy is set apart.. We can see through Saul and David that God doesn't want the ritual or the action without the heart, David even says it outright in Psalm 51...
[bible]Psalm 51:15-17[/bible]

David presents us in the Old Testament with a picture that screams, God is not about Law, but about Faith, and Repentance. The idea I'm hearing go back and forth, is that the Sabbath is a Law so I should keep it.So I'll examine this and see what profit it may be.
I'm told in the new testament that Faith toward God and repentance from dead works is how I am justified before the Lord, it is how I am saved. (Hebrews 6:1-2) Therefore if I believe that keeping the Sabbath justifies me, makes me any more Holy, or any of the things that suggest that God will hear me more, I am at a loss. Why? Because That's exactly what a dead work is defined as: Works that are not based in Faith toward God are dead works. Am I saying that observing a Sabbath cannot be done with faith toward God? No! But I'm saying that observing a Sabbath can not replace faith toward God. For when I start putting my faith in the Sabbath as a work that makes me Holy or Righteous, or Justified I have now come to the point where I no longer have Faith in God. So I must conclude that my right standing with God is completely based around my Faith in Jesus' sacrifice, and me walking in obedience with what Jesus directly told me in the Gospels, Love God and Love others.
Now the question at hand is not whether or not the Sabbath grants me any right standing, but rather does 'God ask me to observe the Sabbath?' and I will say quite blatantly, NO. God does not require me to observe the Sabbath for me to be in obedience with His will. Why do I say this? Because in my experience as a Christian I have never acknowledged a Sabbath in my walk and yet He talks to me more and more (or I notice it more and more as I know his voice better) as I mature in my Faith. So because of my experience with God and who He is to me, I can state that God has not asked me to observe a Sabbath day, but rather He asks me to give up my life for His.
So in the same vain as Jesus did to the other commandments I will suggest that we are not required to observe the Sabbath because of this simple fact: Jesus asks to be Lord of our whole lives, and if we truly Love him, our whole life will be a Sabbath toward God. The Christian life isn't about adhering to Law, it's about Philippians 2: Having the mind of Christ and letting it reign in you.

The Sabbath of the Law puts limitations on how I should live in the Physical, how much work is too much, how far we can walk in a day. But I would like to Suggest that a Sabbath that would be considered NT, is one that is much like Psalm 51, coming to God at all times, giving over our whole lives to Him in honoring submission, not just a single day, or parts of the day, but in Totallity through our lives.

 

[Jerrysch]

I think you are confused here my friend. There were the many sabbaths which were specific to Israel however the 4th commandment which was a republication of what already existed was not Israel specific.

And where in Scripture is this established?

 

[Jerrysch]

The Sabbath was a CREATION ORDINANCE.
Marriage was a CREATION ORDINANCE.

Where does Scripture indicate this?

 

[Jerrysch]

I think you are confused here my friend. There were the many sabbaths which were specific to Israel however the 4th commandment which was a republication of what already existed was not Israel specific.

The Sabbath was a CREATION ORDINANCE.
Marriage was a CREATION ORDINANCE.

As creation ordinances they are permanent. The death of Christ fulfilled the OT worship and the many sabbaths but the seventh day Sabbath is continuous. If I could suggest you read some of the material below. Esp. Ryle and Watson.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/TheLordsDay.htm

What about commandments 11- 613 what about them are the continuous? Where does Scripture indicate which ones are continuous and which ones are not? Who e

 

[Jerrysch]

The Sabbath was a CREATION ORDINANCE.
Marriage was a CREATION ORDINANCE.

As creation ordinances they are permanent. The death of Christ fulfilled the OT worship and the many sabbaths but the seventh day Sabbath is continuous. If I could suggest you read some of the material below. Esp. Ryle and Watson.

Where does Scripture indicate what you are suggesting? Where does Scripture indicate that the Sabbath is continuous? What about the other 612? Why is the Sabbath continuous but the other 612 are not?

 

[Jerrysch]

1. What were they to remember?
2. How can they be called to remember something that did not exist prior to the command?
3. The Sabbath existed from creation.

As I said above, read Watson:
a. http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/ThomasWatsonLordsDay.htm
b. http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/ThomasWatson4thCommandment.htm

But the command to observe it was not from "creation" it was given by way of Revelation in the book of Exodus to a perticular people, ethnic Israel and to no one else.

Rather than giving you links to refer to I'll suggest that you read the Bible especially the books of Romans and Galatiains.

 

[Jerrysch]

The Sabbath of the Law puts limitations on how I should live in the Physical, how much work is too much, how far we can walk in a day. But I would like to Suggest that a Sabbath that would be considered NT, is one that is much like Psalm 51, coming to God at all times, giving over our whole lives to Him in honoring submission, not just a single day, or parts of the day, but in Totallity through our lives.

Actually the Sabbath as defined in Scripture is great!! I have been working for 8 days straight, and a good Sabbath will be good right about now. Ahhhhh rest. But many who suggest that we "must" keep the Sabbath have no idea what God intended for it to be, I'd like to mow the lawn but... It is the Sabbath, Ahhhhhh, back to my nap.

 

[Iosias]

Where does Scripture indicate what you are suggesting? Where does Scripture indicate that the Sabbath is continuous? What about the other 612? Why is the Sabbath continuous but the other 612 are not?

Because Christ was the fulfilment of the OT system but not the sabbath which is permanent being a creation ordinance.

 

[Jerrysch]

Because Christ was the fulfilment of the OT system but not the sabbath which is permanent being a creation ordinance.

You are making a distinction in the Mosiac Law which Scripture does not even make! The Law of Moses is One. Messiah is the fulfilment of the Mosiac Covenant, all of it not just some of it. Your claim that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance is not a valid claim. For a number of reasons. One, the word Sabbath did not appear in Scripture prior to Exodus 16. The word which Scripture indicaters that describes God activity on the seventh day is not shabbath but shabath. Secoundly there is no command given to observe the Sabbath prior to the time of Moses, if it was a "creation ordinance" then instruction to observe this would have been given in Scripture. The Third reason flows from the secound, there is no Scriptural evidence that anyone prior to Moses had ever kept the Sabbath. The Book of Job is celarly understood to have predated Abraham and there is no mention of individuals observing the Sabbath, nor is there evidence that Abraham observed it, Nor Issac, nor Jacob, nor anyone else prior to Moses. Surely if this was as you insist a creation ordinance there should be some evedence that men, even those who were considered as righteous, as haveing observed it, yet there is no evedence of that , not one shread. In the last placve the Scriptures indicate that the Sabbath is a day of rest, not as an observance.

The claim that it was a part of the moral law is flawed as well in that relating to the Sabbath it was wrong to do something on one day of the week and it was perfectly OK to do it on another. Moral law dealt with things which were always wrong. It was always wrong to kill someone no matter what day of the week it was. So your suggestion regarding the moral vs cerimonial aspects of the law falls appart.

 

[Bernergirl]

Where does Scripture indicate what you are suggesting? Where does Scripture indicate that the Sabbath is continuous? What about the other 612? Why is the Sabbath continuous but the other 612 are not?

I remember something someone on another Christian board was saying. Essentially the person said, "No one would argue this point if we were talking about another of the Ten Commandments."

I'm not trying to be divisive (and if this is stirring up rotten feelins, maybe it ought be dropped - quarrels over the law and all) I'm honestly trying to extract information.

God bless,

Lissa

 

[Jerrysch]

I remember something someone on another Christian board was saying. Essentially the person said, "No one would argue this point if we were talking about another of the Ten Commandments."

I'm not trying to be divisive (and if this is stirring up rotten feelins, maybe it ought be dropped - quarrels over the law and all) I'm honestly trying to extract information.

God bless,

Lissa

Good for you Lissa I hope some of my posts have been informative, this Sabbath issue tends to be a "pet doctrine" with many people. We are not under the Mosiac Law that is not just the 10 but the 613, it has been fully fulfilled in Messiah. Just for fun, you should look up the 613 to see what ethnic Israel had to obey

 

[winslow]

God's plan is to have a people for his own possession and in the OT they were called Israel. But as propesised in the OT the gentiles would be brought in and so gentiles are grafted into the tree. With this people God has made known his law called Moral and one part of that was to keep the seventh day holy. In the OT that was Saturday but in the NT, Christ, as the Lord of the Sabbath changed the day to the Sunday and so Christians keep the Sunday as their sabbath but call it the Lord's day.

Try reading:
1. http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/KarlbergMarkReformedInterpretationMosaic.htm
2. http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/TheLordsDay.htm
3. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/subcats.asp?id=13|26

The idea that the seventh day is a pattern and not a fixed time is a fallacous one. The Lord dictated which day was the day of rest by sending a double portion of manna on the preparation day.

The idea that Christ changed the sabbath day from saturday to sunday is also refuted. The early church continued keeping the sabbath until after the apostolic era. The church gradually elevated the first day to equality with the seventh, then declared it to be the "Christian Sabbath". The sabbath set by the lord is a festival day, a joyous occasion, the church changed it to a fasting day.

 

[Sleaker]

Actually the Sabbath as defined in Scripture is great!! I have been working for 8 days straight, and a good Sabbath will be good right about now. Ahhhhh rest. But many who suggest that we "must" keep the Sabbath have no idea what God intended for it to be, I'd like to mow the lawn but... It is the Sabbath, Ahhhhhh, back to my nap.

See the point I'm trying to convey is exactly the picture here. God doesn't care if you don't mow your lawn or not because of it being a 'Sabbath.' Seeking God isn't about giving up other things for the sake of giving them up. If there is nothing to fill the hole with then an equal evil will replace it, that is the nature of man. While I agree a rest is what God desires, I don't think he wants us to rest just for the sake of resting, I think He wants us to rest to take our focus and put it back on Him. We see that as Jesus healed the man on the Sabbath and so broke the Law of the Pharisees. God is more concerned about what you are doing than what you are trying not to do. I mention all of this because that's what we see in Hebrews 12:1-3. Throw off every weight of sin that hinders us, and we do this by focusing on Christ...

Honestly I'm coming to the point where I think communion is the NT Sabbath.

Edit: Okay I'm going to ask it outright because I think the implication in my last post were overlooked. What difference does it make if I observe the Jewish Sabbath as seen in the Old Testament or Not?

 

[Jerrysch]

The idea that Christ changed the sabbath day from saturday to sunday is also refuted. The early church continued keeping the sabbath until after the apostolic era. The church gradually elevated the first day to equality with the seventh, then declared it to be the "Christian Sabbath". The sabbath set by the lord is a festival day, a joyous occasion, the church changed it to a fasting day.

This is true, and I think the reasson is that Up until that time, the body of Messiah was dominated by those of ethnic Israel. They at that time outnumbered the Gentiles.


This was no coinsidence, I am afraid, it is my opinion that there were elements in the body who were seeking to remove the body of Messiah from its Judistic roots, and substiture Roministic roots. This roministic movement has today its ally in Covenant theology which seeks to further replace Israel with the church in all the blessings and promices of Scripture. It was a sure step towards theological liberalism.

 

[Jerrysch]

See the point I'm trying to convey is exactly the picture here. God doesn't care if you don't mow your lawn or not because of it being a 'Sabbath.' Seeking God isn't about giving up other things for the sake of giving them up. If there is nothing to fill the hole with then an equal evil will replace it, that is the nature of man. While I agree a rest is what God desires, I don't think he wants us to rest just for the sake of resting, I think He wants us to rest to take our focus and put it back on Him. We see that as Jesus healed the man on the Sabbath and so broke the Law of the Pharisees. God is more concerned about what you are doing than what you are trying not to do. I mention all of this because that's what we see in Hebrews 12:1-3. Throw off every weight of sin that hinders us, and we do this by focusing on Christ...

Honestly I'm coming to the point where I think communion is the NT Sabbath.

Edit: Okay I'm going to ask it outright because I think the implication in my last post were overlooked. What difference does it make if I observe the Jewish Sabbath as seen in the Old Testament or Not?

Well if you look at when the Sabbath was presented to ethnic Israel, that was exactly what God had in mind, rest, no church, no labor rest.

 

[Jerrysch]

See the point I'm trying to convey is exactly the picture here. God doesn't care if you don't mow your lawn or not because of it being a 'Sabbath.' Seeking God isn't about giving up other things for the sake of giving them up. If there is nothing to fill the hole with then an equal evil will replace it, that is the nature of man. While I agree a rest is what God desires, I don't think he wants us to rest just for the sake of resting, I think He wants us to rest to take our focus and put it back on Him. We see that as Jesus healed the man on the Sabbath and so broke the Law of the Pharisees. God is more concerned about what you are doing than what you are trying not to do. I mention all of this because that's what we see in Hebrews 12:1-3. Throw off every weight of sin that hinders us, and we do this by focusing on Christ...

Honestly I'm coming to the point where I think communion is the NT Sabbath.

Edit: Okay I'm going to ask it outright because I think the implication in my last post were overlooked. What difference does it make if I observe the Jewish Sabbath as seen in the Old Testament or Not?

The point here is that the Sabbath was given to ethnic Israel, to them alone, to mark them off as a distinctive people. It was given to them alone, not to the church or anyone else to observe under penalty. Now I happen to like the one day in seven rest, but the Scripture does not command anyone rest other than ethnic Israel, and that command was fulfiled in Messiah, the whole of the Mosica covenant complete with its 613 Laws have been fulfilled and thereby done away with. As I stated before the Sabbath was/is not a "creation ordinance" and for that reason (among others) it is no longer binding on any person on the face of the earth. Now If you want to rest 1 day in 7 great, but don't think you have to in that the 613 are disanulled.

 

[Jerrysch]

See the point I'm trying to convey is exactly the picture here. God doesn't care if you don't mow your lawn or not because of it being a 'Sabbath.' Seeking God isn't about giving up other things for the sake of giving them up. If there is nothing to fill the hole with then an equal evil will replace it, that is the nature of man. While I agree a rest is what God desires, I don't think he wants us to rest just for the sake of resting, I think He wants us to rest to take our focus and put it back on Him. We see that as Jesus healed the man on the Sabbath and so broke the Law of the Pharisees. God is more concerned about what you are doing than what you are trying not to do. I mention all of this because that's what we see in Hebrews 12:1-3. Throw off every weight of sin that hinders us, and we do this by focusing on Christ...

Honestly I'm coming to the point where I think communion is the NT Sabbath.

Edit: Okay I'm going to ask it outright because I think the implication in my last post were overlooked. What difference does it make if I observe the Jewish Sabbath as seen in the Old Testament or Not?

This should be done with every waking minute we have not just on a weekly basis.

 

[Jerrysch]

See the point I'm trying to convey is exactly the picture here. God doesn't care if you don't mow your lawn or not because of it being a 'Sabbath.' Seeking God isn't about giving up other things for the sake of giving them up. If there is nothing to fill the hole with then an equal evil will replace it, that is the nature of man. While I agree a rest is what God desires, I don't think he wants us to rest just for the sake of resting, I think He wants us to rest to take our focus and put it back on Him. We see that as Jesus healed the man on the Sabbath and so broke the Law of the Pharisees. God is more concerned about what you are doing than what you are trying not to do. I mention all of this because that's what we see in Hebrews 12:1-3. Throw off every weight of sin that hinders us, and we do this by focusing on Christ...

Honestly I'm coming to the point where I think communion is the NT Sabbath.

Edit: Okay I'm going to ask it outright because I think the implication in my last post were overlooked. What difference does it make if I observe the Jewish Sabbath as seen in the Old Testament or Not?[/quote]


Well if you desire to set appart one day for honoring God in the manner you see fit, that is great, if you do it every day all day even better . But when some guy comes along and tells you that you have to observe a day as a requirement to have fellowship with him and then trys to suggest that his bias is based upon the Bible, well there he is worng. The Sabbath was given to ethnic Israel alone. Do you see what I am saying? And make no mistake there are those who desire to put this yoke of bondage upon the body of Messiah

 

[ThreeAM]

Well if you desire to set appart one day for honoring God in the manner you see fit, that is great, if you do it every day all day even better . But when some guy comes along and tells you that you have to observe a day as a requirement to have fellowship with him and then trys to suggest that his bias is based upon the Bible, well there he is worng. The Sabbath was given to ethnic Israel alone. Do you see what I am saying? And make no mistake there are those who desire to put this yoke of bondage upon the body of Messiah

Interesting postion but what does Christ say?

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man [444], and not man for the sabbath:Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man [444] is Lord also of the sabbath.


The Son of Man is the Lord of ALL Men not the ethnic Jews only. The Sabbath was made for ALL Men and was made the day after God made Man. If Christ is the son of ALL Men then the Sabbath was also made for ALL Men.

Strong's 444 anthropos {anth'-ro-pos}


1) a human being, whether male or female
a) generically, to include all human individuals b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order