Smacking Children

[non-religious]

[ebia]Well, they can say whatever they like but that doesn't make it so. Unless the statement comes from someone with some credibility...

Yeah, the parent.....

Why not? Is no-one in the world open to fresh ideas? Can what is considered acceptable in society not be changed by discussion? Can training in effective parenting not be implemented and supported? Ultimately, can laws not be changed?

If not, why does this forum (or any other) exist - to vent hot air? Are people so irrational that discussion of such an important topic as how to teach children how to behave is a waste of time? If so, the world is toast.

I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be debated or that any form of legislation shouldn't be implemented to ban smacking. I'm not sure how that would be policed and we had a debate about this very issue here in England last year. I think Scotland have looked at ways to ban the smacking of children, but there was such an outcry and people were crying that political correctness was going to far.

You can't take away the right of a parent to discipline their own children, it's an utter waste of time. Becos ultimately you'll have phone calls coming in at all times about a parent being seen smacking their child's bottom and whilst the poilce and social services are being over-run and ridiculuously mis-used trying to deal with that, there will be cases of real concern regarding real abuse of children being overlooked. The financial implications involved in trying to implement this law will be substantial.

I know parents can raise their children without smacking them, my daughter is living proof, but I'm not going to judge a parent who optes for that method and I'm certainly not going to patronise them.....

 

[rosalind110]

Actually, the Mommies who count to three are the Mommies who end up hitting after three

.

May I suggest that this may have been your experience, but it doesn't necessarily tally with those of other posters on this thread? Different set of 'counting mommies' perhaps. Also, I don't feel that the issue when this was mentioned was so much the method of discipline, but that there was no follow through in any mode of discipline so the counting was an empty and pointless threat.

I was not a spanker and my children behaved themselves in public much better than the children whose parents spank.

From this I assume that you must have spoken to the parents of every well behaved child that you met in a public place in order to ascertain whether or not their parents were 'spankers'. If you did not, then you cannot substantiate this claim.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've had to ask the Lord to forgive me for wanting to slap the parents who take a crying child into some place like a restaurant or a movie and then tell the child to hush, following this by spanking the child for crying louder.

This is something that I can't ever recall seeing and it isn't something that I would do myself. Certainly these parents were at fault.

Your child makes a scene in public, you take the child to your car.

Yes- spanking apart, that is what most of us would do. To remove the child from the situation will hopefully teach him or her that bad behaviour results in consequences and loss of enjoyment. Spanking hopefully will not be necessary.

You don't beat the child in public, and make it worse.
You don't beat the child at all.

Correct. A child should never be 'beaten', although the ocassional light smack in private is a completely different matter.

 

[rosalind110]

If your child is saying, "Screw you mommy," and "shove it up your *** Mommy" ... they learned it from you, and again - you are the one who needs the spanking, not the child.

Or could they possibly have learned it from those little darlings at kindergarten or school whose parents feel that any form of discipline is 'stifling' their child's 'creativity'?

 

[non-religious]

[rosalind110]Or could they possibly have learned it from those little darlings at kindergarten or school whose parents feel that any form of discipline is 'stifling' their child's 'creativity'?

 

[rosalind110]

http://www.endabuse.org/

Not sure how this url, which refers to domestic violence against women has to do with the question of child discipline.

 

[rosalind110]

I am convinced that threatening helpless beings with things they are afraid of is not a good idea.
This is conditioning, not education.

It is counterproductive to what I would like children to understand and learn.

Considering that children (and humans in general) learn social behaviour by modeling others´ behaviour (as opposed to what people say), it teaches them that threatening physically weaker persons with frightening physical actions is a good idea (those who claim to be their models, and want to be acknowledged as such, do it, after all).
I don´t want to teach this standard to children.
Ymmv

I understand your reasoning here. I too would prefer that a child of mine understood the reasons why certain behaviours are not acceptable and did not simply avoid them because he/she was afraid of the consequences. In some cases the end result of fear tactics might be that a child reballed against the whole regime in later years when they were able to become independent. However, I do think that a certain amount of what you describe as 'conditioning' is inevitable when you are raising a child. For example, if you use 'time-out' as a consequence for a particular infraction, then what eventually compels the child not to repeat the 'offence' is the fact that he or she does not want to be put in 'time-out'. Better than out and out fear, I know, but still a form of conditioning instilled by parental control tactics.

 

[SallyNow]

Southern Ireland is part of the UK in the same sense that Canada is part of the US.

So in other words...South Ireland is not part of the UK at all?

Because Canada is a totally seperate country from the USA, not matter what some (misguided) political pundits tell you.

Funnily enough, those same political pundits also often seem to believe that spanking should be the main form of discipline used on kids...

I'd give examples, but that would just bring on a whole new debate...so just take this as the random comment of the day.

 

[rosalind110]

What evidence do you have that the reason it didn't work is something about your nature rather than a lack in their technique?

I think that this question works both ways. Equally there is no evidence to support the notion that the problem was a lack in her parents' technique. That the poster herself experienced this and feels that her own attitude was to blame seems to me to be pretty conclusive.

 

[rosalind110]

I was spanked once, it did not change my behavior, all it did was make me hate my dad.

All this tells me is that spanking did not work for you as an individual. However, this does not mean automatically that it wouldn't work for anyone else.

 

[rosalind110]

(this is purely a hypothetical comment)
So, I should come over there and slap you for not agreeing with me because I am right! (that was a purley hypothetical comment)

I'm just wondering what 'not agreeing' has to do with teaching a child appropriate behaviour to equip him for the world.

 

[rosalind110]

My contention is that you didn't need spankings, and that other techniques would have been much more effective had your parents been sufficiently well informed and well planned in using them.

Again, this is a matter of opinion, because your idea of effective 'other techniques' might not work in every case and there is no way to accurately rate them in every situation and in regard to each individual.

 

[rosalind110]

I haven't said that all parents are that way. I do contend that the vast majority of parents are, because effective discipline is not something that is instinctive and very few parents have been trained in it. Good discipline is difficult and hard work, but laziness is not an excuse for abuse.

It could also be said that it was lazy and neglectful and not the best thing for a child, to avoid a method of discipline that might work simply because the parent would find it uncomfortable to apply. The fact is that there are times when. as parents, we have to stick to our guns and enforce a discipline even when we would rather give the child a hug and forget all about it.

 

[rosalind110]

As a relatively new teacher I am aware of the vast difference good training in managing children makes.

I am not a teacher, new or otherwise, but I did help out in a school classroom for a couple of years with both new and experienced teachers and chatted often with my Mother-in-Law and aunt who were both teachers. The one thing that they were all consistent on was that you cannot learn how to teach, and you cannot learn how to encourage or discipline children in a collage classroom. The only way you can learn these things is through , trial, error and experience. Could it be that you do not yet have this level of personal experience?

 

[rosalind110]

Ok, I am on Candid Camera, right? My kid is in trouble for hitting someone so I am supposed to hit him? That will teach him a lesson. And what lesson is that? "I need to wait until I am bigger until I can hit people."

Perhaps it would give your kid an indication of what it feels like to be on the receiving end of this type of behaviour. I agree that it does seem like flawed logic, but then again, as I said earlier on this thread, there was a time when, right or wrong, spanking was a common form of discipline for this type of behaviour and there is no evidence whatsoever that it resulted in adults who go around randomly hitting smaller people, because they themselves were spanked. By your estimation, we shouldn't be able to turn around without seeing someone behaving in such a manner.

 

[rosalind110]

As was said before, punishment does not produce change in behavior. It just makes the behavior move to a time when the punishing factor is not present. To change a behavior, you have to find an easier way of fulfilling the need the behavior is trying to fulfill. For example; If I want my parents attention and they ignore me until I mouth off, by paying attention to me when I am behaving appropriately, I will be less likely to mouth off because I am getting my needs fulfilled.

This seems rather a sweeping statement. Does it mean that there should be no consequences for any wrong doing at all? In a perfect world populated by perfect beings then I think that this might work, but the reality is that no-one is perfect, sometimes we make incorrect choices and there are times when we all break the rules of society and morality. For some people, gentle guidance in the right direction might be the answer, but for others, this clearly does not work and discipline/consequences are required to support a change of direction. I don't see that this is always the fault of the parents or their use or misuse of discipline, laziness, or over zealousness. It can be just as much the product of a particular personality or outside influence. In my opinion, all we can do is our very best for our children before letting them go out into the world and making their own way.

 

[ottaia]

Let's just say, I have been in situations where spanking was at abuse levels. (Like 8-9 times in a 15 second period) If I can prevent even one other child from going through that I will. Period.

 

[rosalind110]

Wouldn't it be better to help the kid fulfill the need in appropriate ways instead of punishing the kid and then having the kid search for other ways of fulfilling the need?

This assumes that the spanking/ other method of discipline is the sole ingredient of the parent's reaction to the behaviour. What if this is not the case, and the behaviour and the underlying need are also addressed during the process? What if the behaviour has previously been addressed on a discussion and communication level, limits have been mutually agreed and a system set in place to avoid a repeat, and the child still flouts this agreement and does what he or she wants to the detriment of the people around him or her? Do we send the message that agreements and responsibilty mean nothing and that it's okay not to consider anyone else and go your own way?

Secondly, and going back to sinple roots, what if the behaviour in question is a four year old regularly throwing a tantrum at the supermarket checkout because his mother has refused him a chocolate bar. It may not be possible for her not to take him with her on the next visit and it may not be possible for her to remove him to the car if she is in a queue of customers. Even if she does remove him from the situation, it will only alleviate the immediate problem and won't stop him repeating the process in the future. I do not advocate spanking in this situation, but I also believe that the child is too young to understand the moral implications of his wrong doing. I would therefore say that the child needs to learn that unacceptable behaviour results in consistent and unpleasant consequences. This is how we all learn, because that is the way of the world. When we are older and we speed in the car, we can use out own judgement about what the natural cosequences of dangerous or unacceptable behaviour might be and it isn't all about 'punishment', but at four years old, we still need our parents to set our boundaries and give us an understanding that bad behaviours have consequences. In this case, there is no underlying 'need' on the part of the child, but only a 'want' for something that isn't good for him and it is our responsibilty to teach him that 'want' doesn't always mean 'get'.

 

[rosalind110]

So if three-quarters of a population do something that makes it moral?

On the same note, if 25% of the population do things another way, does it make that way moral?

 

[rosalind110]

Is it possible they do, and still don't agree with slapping a child?

Hope you know your children are going to do the same thing you do...so they'll probably slap your grandchild.

While there is clear evidence that spousal domestic violence is often learned from parents, contrary to popular opinion, there is absolutely no reliable or consistent evidence one way or another that spanking will or will not be used as a tool of discipline by a person who was themselves spanked as a child. Further to that, since many people feel that spanking was a useful and non damaging tool of discipline in their own childhood or parenthood, I hardly think that they would be concerned if their grandchildren were educated and disciplined in the same way.

 

[rosalind110]

Chrystabelle,

May I ask you what transpired immediately after you slapped your daughter? Was she greatly upset and afraid, or did the shock redirect the behaviour and allow you to communicate with her? It isn't that I condone your action out of hand, but I would like to know your experience as the mother of an austistic child and to try to understand whether this was in fact a constructive thing for her. In the case certain physical conditions, it is necessary to inflict a certain amount of pain (such as an injection) in order to help. Could this have been a similar thing?