Smacking Children

[quatona]

So I guess teaching my kids to look both ways before crossing the road, for they may get and/or killed by a vehicle is not allowed, for it's instilling fear into them and we can't allow that to happen, now can we.

There is a subtle, but significant difference (that may have escaped you in the heat of the moment) between this example and making them afraid of the physical threat we ourselves impose on them:
The danger of being killed by a car is something we have no influence on. We have to accept it as given ourselves.
Whilst making them fear something we can decide to inflict on them, makes them fear something that is in our control. If we wouldn´t do it, we wouldn´t need to threaten them, and there would be no danger. It is an arbitrarily inflicted punishment.
I consider that the very difference between "consequences" and"punishment".

On another note, I don´t think that we need to use fear tactiques to convince our children that careless behaviour in traffic will lead to undesired consequences.

 

[ebia]

Ok, but a slap on the ass is just as effective and quick as any other method.

Ah, I see. "I hit them because it's easier than thinking of something else".

And when a child won't listen, it makes them listen.

The last think a child who has just been hit is doing is listening.

No, it's like snowball effect. When a child is young, is never get spanked, they don't always have a healthy understanding that the consequences of certain actions are indeed painful.

I wouldn't regard "people who make bad choices should be beaten up" to be a healthy understand of anything.

A spanking is all that is needed to teach a child this lesson. When that kid's 20, it takes more than a spanking.

Kids who are disciplined properly don't need spanking at 2 or 20.

Rape is violence, ok. Spanking may by technical definition, qualify as violence, but to equate it with real violence, is an insult to those who have experience real violence, and to those parents who have had to spank.

Sorry, but you don't get to define violence. Hitting someone is violence; that doesn't mean all levels of violence are equal.

Well at some point they stop being brats. And the older they get, the bigger that "something" has to be.

What something? You still working on the unfounded assumption that everyone needs to be hit at some point before they can grow up?

For many teenagers the point they stop being bratty is when something major changes, eg they work out what they want to do in life, or they get their first regular job.

If you spank them while they are young, they will understand the power of words and reason because they same some understanding of what inevitably happens when words and reason break down.

So what you want to teach them is "when you can't reason with someone any more - start hitting them."?

My mom didn't spank me for the first 6 years of my life. In first grade, I was Brat Numero Uno.

That's not because she didn't hit you, but because she didn't discipline you effectively. The choice is NOT violence or nothing.

 

[ebia]

Any form of physical punishment of children is a demonstration of and a lesson in "might makes right". For me, this is the very definition of "abuse of power".

I am convinced that threatening helpless beings with things they are afraid of is not a good idea.
This is conditioning, not education.

It is counterproductive to what I would like children to understand and learn.

Considering that children (and humans in general) learn social behaviour by modeling others´ behaviour (as opposed to what people say), it teaches them that threatening physically weaker persons with frightening physical actions is a good idea (those who claim to be their models, and want to be acknowledged as such, do it, after all).
I don´t want to teach this standard to children.
Ymmv

 

[JGL53]

Smacking children is a bad idea for all sorts of reasons. If it is a societal accepted form of discipline, then the standard is set that infliction of pain is acceptable. Some people who are less intelligent will always go too far. Better to make the standard NO direct infliction of pain as a form of discipline.

Some children WILL be psychologically harmed by smacking, even though most will not, perhaps. Thus, better to develop other forms of discipline to avoid those cases of psychological harm.

No person in the history of the world - as far as I know - has ever described a scenario wherein smacking was either the best or the only form of discipline that will "work". Until someone does that, better to go with forms of discipline that have less potential for abuse.

The fact is an ongoing problem that "spare the rod and spoil the child" is in the O.T. and many people still hold that as a defense of their smacking children. The bible also says that menstruating women are "unclean" and that to even touch them makes another person "unclean". This is ignored now - and rightfully so - ditto the killing of adulterers and homosexuals - and the ban on eating pork and shellfish - and about a thousand other things.

People need to start actually thinking instead of just rotely going along with superstitious ideas concocted by a primitive desert tribe who's cavemanesque culture has been dead now for about 3 thousand years.

 

[miss_liz]

I think spanking is just fine. To tell the truth, sometimes the only reason I ever obeyed my parents was because they spanked me. I am one of those children who the time out does not work for. That would only make me bitter and upset with my mom or dad. I would much rather have been spanked than sit in the corner. Sometimes I deserved to be spanked because I tried to test my parents' limits a little too much. I do not agree that my parents abused me at all. It was a form of punishment for me. I learned to respect and obey my parents--something gentle punishment (with me) could not do.

 

[policy4ev]

I think spanking is just fine. To tell the truth, sometimes the only reason I ever obeyed my parents was because they spanked me. I am one of those children who the time out does not work for. That would only make me bitter and upset with my mom or dad. I would much rather have been spanked than sit in the corner. Sometimes I deserved to be spanked because I tried to test my parents' limits a little too much. I do not agree that my parents abused me at all. It was a form of punishment for me. I learned to respect and obey my parents--something gentle punishment (with me) could not do.

I have to disagree with you a little liz. While spanking may cause you to respect your parents more, it can also go to far. There was not a day when my brother lived at home that he did not get spanked. My parents were so worried about his behavior, I was ignored until about the 9th grade; when my brother graduated. Then my parents turned around and expected me to be the complete opposite of my brother. Out side of the home my brother just got into trouble with the law, experimented with drugs, and then had to marry his girlfriend because she was having his baby! Spanking really did not help my brother.

 

[miss_liz]

I have to disagree with you a little liz. While spanking may cause you to respect your parents more, it can also go to far. There was not a day when my brother lived at home that he did not get spanked. My parents were so worried about his behavior, I was ignored until about the 9th grade; when my brother graduated. Then my parents turned around and expected me to be the complete opposite of my brother. Out side of the home my brother just got into trouble with the law, experimented with drugs, and then had to marry his girlfriend because she was having his baby! Spanking really did not help my brother.

I agree it can be abused, but so can many forms of punishment. I'm just saying that it is another form of punishment. Like I said, gentle punishments didn't always work. But spanking every day is going a little overboard. But that doesn't mean spanking a child is physical abuse. I can't see it labeled as such when it is used to teach a child something. I certainly don't view it as abuse when used properly.

 

[policy4ev]

I agree it can be abused, but so can many forms of punishment. I'm just saying that it is another form of punishment. Like I said, gentle punishments didn't always work. But spanking every day is going a little overboard. But that doesn't mean spanking a child is physical abuse. I can't see it labeled as such when it is used to teach a child something. I certainly don't view it as abuse when used properly.

what is your definition of abuse? Just physical. Or do you believe in neglect, verbal, and emotional?

 

[miss_liz]

what is your definition of abuse? Just physical. Or do you believe in neglect, verbal, and emotional?

My definition of (physical) abuse is when it physically harms the child. Spanking doesn't (usually) harm the child. Yes I believe in neglect. I do believe in verbal and emotional neglect/abuse. But I still don't think spanking is necessarily an evil, abusive thing for a parent to do. It can be just another form of punishment.

 

[ottaia]

Punishment does not work. If punishment worked, no one would speed. If punishment worked, there would be no one in prison. Punishment only works as long as the punishing factor is present, when it is gone, the behavior returns. We need to move beyond the antiquated though to punishment to the thought of correction.

 

[policy4ev]

My definition of (physical) abuse is when it physically harms the child. Spanking doesn't (usually) harm the child. Yes I believe in neglect. I do believe in verbal and emotional neglect/abuse. But I still don't think spanking is necessarily an evil, abusive thing for a parent to do. It can be just another form of punishment.

I can see where you are coming from. The bible even says that sometimes the rod must be used (spanking); but if the child grows up and never learns right from wrong, has spanking really helped.

 

[miss_liz]

Punishment does work though. I was punished. What do you mean by correction? What do you imply should be done?

 

[miss_liz]

Policy--I agree.

 

[policy4ev]

Punishment does not work. If punishment worked, no one would speed. If punishment worked, there would be no one in prison. Punishment only works as long as the punishing factor is present, when it is gone, the behavior returns. We need to move beyond the antiquated though to punishment to the thought of correction.

Punishment must work in some ways, or we would be living under martial law. Look at the people that don't speed or are not in jail, punishment must have worked for them. Or at least the fear of it.

 

[ottaia]

Correction involves teaching what is wrong and supplying a more appropriate way to act. If the child is sassing, then the parent does not respond until the child is speaking properly. If the glass of milk is spilled, the child cleans up the milk. It takes some thought and it is not as easy as yelling or smacking but it is teaching instead of instilling fear and humiliation.

 

[ottaia]

Punishment must work in some ways, or we would be living under martial law. Look at the people that don't speed or are not in jail, punishment must have worked for them. Or at least the fear of it.

Do you always follow the speed limit? Would you follow the speed limit if you knew there were no cops around?

 

[miss_liz]

Correction involves teaching what is wrong and supplying a more appropriate way to act. If the child is sassing, then the parent does not respond until the child is speaking properly. If the glass of milk is spilled, the child cleans up the milk. It takes some thought and it is not as easy as yelling or smacking but it is teaching instead of instilling fear and humiliation.

But see, my parents tried that with me. It just does not work with every child. If my mom or dad did not respond to my sassing, I just sassed them more. They don't care...why should I? My parents did instill fear in me to a degree...instead of wanting to disappoint them, I was eager to please.

 

[ebia]

Smacking children is a bad idea for all sorts of reasons. If it is a societal accepted form of discipline, then the standard is set that infliction of pain is acceptable. Some people who are less intelligent will always go too far. Better to make the standard NO direct infliction of pain as a form of discipline.

Some children WILL be psychologically harmed by smacking, even though most will not, perhaps. Thus, better to develop other forms of discipline to avoid those cases of psychological harm.

No person in the history of the world - as far as I know - has ever described a scenario wherein smacking was either the best or the only form of discipline that will "work". Until someone does that, better to go with forms of discipline that have less potential for abuse.

The fact is an ongoing problem that "spare the rod and spoil the child" is in the O.T. and many people still hold that as a defense of their smacking children. The bible also says that menstruating women are "unclean" and that to even touch them makes another person "unclean". This is ignored now - and rightfully so - ditto the killing of adulterers and homosexuals - and the ban on eating pork and shellfish - and about a thousand other things.

People need to start actually thinking instead of just rotely going along with superstitious ideas concocted by a primitive desert tribe who's cavemanesque culture has been dead now for about 3 thousand years.

Perhaps, but generally telling people they are complete idiots doesnt' do much to inspire them to think.

 

[policy4ev]

Do you always follow the speed limit? Would you follow the speed limit if you knew there were no cops around?

Yes, as a matter of fact I would! I know the punishment that would result if I was pulled over, that is enough to keep me from speeding. How do we not know the cops are not around? Can you read their minds when they are close by?

 

[ottaia]

Slap all you want. The police need jobs as do psychologists. What would we do without bullies? I think smacking kids is a great thing because I am big and they are small. I know more than they do so I need to beat it into them. They will listen better when they are crying. And when they beat their kids, we can all stand back and proudly smile.