Smacking Children

[non-religious]

[Lokisdottir]

And it's up to the parents to set them. If it can be done without spanking, wonderful. But don't turn up your nose at those at those who can't. If it takes the occasional spanking for the child to respect his parents' authority, so be it.

And that's the bottom line.... It is absolutely up to the parents as to how and when they discipline their children. No argument there...

Too many parents frown on spanking without even bothering to find any other way of teaching their child respect. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey (and only 19!) that would certainly explain the behavior of most of the children I see in public. Kids these days...

Whilst I would agree that children from a very young age need to learn manners, respect and a sense of right from wrong that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be beaten, slapped or smacked into them. I used to get corporal punishment at infant school, it's completely banned now and it didn't stop children from messing around or growing up to be rude, disrespectful or downright criminal.

If you told a child not to touch the stove, and there was no pain reflex to make him draw his hand away, he would continue to do it and marvel at the interesting colors his hand is turning.

Simply removing the child from the area would suffice or an explanation as to why the child should not touch the stove.

Let's also be clear that the mode of spanking I'm arguing for doesn't even really involve pain. A swat or two on the tush is not all that painful unless the parent goes out of his or her way to use excessive force (and I don't advocate that, either). It's more of a shock than anything else, kind of like spraying a cat with a water bottle.

I don't agree it's necessary, but I totally respect parents that do

 

[MikeMcK]

Slapping, no. Spanking, yes.

 

[spinto]

I wonder whether anyone can give me their opinion about smacking children. I never slap my children and until recently I had a no-slapping rule in my household.

However, my wife does slap the children occasionally and was very upset recently when a social worker saw her slapping one of our children. The social worker made a huge issue out of it and tried to prosecute.

Luckily my wife foresaw the furore which would ensue and took our child to the doctor immediately. The doctor examined our child and could find no mark on him. The social worker was therefore unable to take the matter further.

This incident has had a very stressful effect on us, as a family. Does anyone else have any similar experiences?

I would have counter-sued for invasion of privacy and then for emotional distress. Either that, or I would've turned around and slapped the social worker! Hahaha!

 

[wanderingone]

I was spanked, but very seldom, and never in the face, on the butt only, and it didn't leave marks. When I was told specifically not to do something, and did it anyway, or when I did something that was over the top. I'm not talking about not cleaning my room, or spilling a glass of milk, I am talking about swearing at my parents, throwing things at my parents, vandalizing property, etc. Talking things out with me simply did not work, I used to plug my ears. The whole "touchy-feely" concept doesn't work for every parent, and people need to realize that and not judge.

Touchy Feely LOL... I've never spanked.. but I've never had the rules and consequences for breaking them viewed as touchy feely in our house

I'd agree that in most cases where spanking is used as you described it's not "abuse" It's not the way I choose to deal with things and I judge only in saying that I see spanking, what it does and doesn't do and have judged that it's not the way I would discipline my children... I've also never had the issue of my kids throwing things at me, swearing at me or vandalizing property with the exception of my stepson but he was hit until he was 9.. because he lived with someone who "spanked" until he moved in with us at age 9 alas he wasn't a very well behaved child before we got him..

 

[wanderingone]

Grrr... duplicates

 

[wanderingone]

Grrr.. more duplicates

 

[spinto]

I feel that spanking kids would be counterproductive in regards to what and how I would like them to learn.

I totally disagree with the "we don't spank" mentality. I can pick these kids out of a crowd... These are the ones screaming and running around the resturant, while Mommy threatens to count to 3.

Small children are EGOSENTRIC. This means they cannot be reasoned with on the level you think they should be reasoning at. They're little minds are just not there yet. Sometimes they need a little pop on the butt, and that it brings their attention back to you... Then, you can make them understand why they are not to do whatever it was they did wrong. And then you need stick to it. As they get older you won't need to spank because you will then be able to appeal to their maturing ablity to understand how their actions effect the world around them--outside of their direct perspective.

To me, when you try to reason, "aka" bargin, with small children. All you are doing is teaching them to how manipulate you. And that is truely counter productive.

I never feel children should be beaten... But spanking it neccesary in most cases it seems to me. And it varies. Some kids need a lighter touch than others.

 

[non-religious]

[spinto]I totally disagree with the "we don't spank" mentality. I can pick these kids out of a crowd... These are the ones screaming and running around the resturant, while Mommy threatens to count to 3.

Small children are EGOSENTRIC. This means they cannot be reasoned with on the level you think they should be reasoning at. They're little minds are just not there yet. Sometimes they need a little pop on the butt, and that it brings their attention back to you... Then, you can make them understand why they are not to do whatever it was they did wrong. And then you need stick to it. As they get older you won't need to spank because you will then be able to appeal to their maturing ablity to understand how their actions effect the world around them--outside of their direct perspective.

To me, when you try to reason, "aka" bargin, with small children. All you are doing is teaching them to how manipulate you. And that is truely counter productive.

I never feel children should be beaten... But spanking it neccesary in most cases it seems to me.

I respect you're opinion, but unfortunately according to my experience both as a child and now a father, you're logic is very wrong. Children will, at times will test their parents, this is perfectly normal. My response has never been to smack my daughter and yet she, like me has grown into a confident, well mannered, respectful and likeable young girl (10yrs) except of course I'm not a 10yr old girl..
Never had to raise my hand to her, never even crossed my mind. You wouldn't have spotted her in you're flawed resturant test

And it varies. Some kids need a lighter touch than others.

I rest my case

 

[Chrystabelle]

I totally disagree with the "we don't spank" mentality. I can pick these kids out of a crowd... These are the ones screaming and running around the resturant, while Mommy threatens to count to 3.

Small children are EGOSENTRIC. This means they cannot be reasoned with on the level you think they should be reasoning at. They're little minds are just not there yet. Sometimes they need a little pop on the butt, and that it brings their attention back to you... Then, you can make them understand why they are not to do whatever it was they did wrong. And then you need stick to it. As they get older you won't need to spank because you will then be able to appeal to their maturing ablity to understand how their actions effect the world around them--outside of their direct perspective.

To me, when you try to reason, "aka" bargin, with small children. All you are doing is teaching them to how manipulate you. And that is truely counter productive.

I never feel children should be beaten... But spanking it neccesary in most cases it seems to me. And it varies. Some kids need a lighter touch than others.

I agree with you. You cannot reason with small children. But when they get to the age of 4, it is best to reason with them rather than slap them. At this age you can threaten them with other punishments because they understand what you are saying to them.

My experience with my 9 year old autistic child has been very different to other parents' experiences with their 'normal' children. Until recently, it has been very difficult to reason with my autistic child as she is almost completely mute. Having said that, I do not make a habit of slapping her. I only slapped her because she was hysterical. It was only a light slap, anyway. But when we are at home, we use *time out* to try to modify her behaviour. We also use threats and she does understand them now that she is older.

 

[spinto]

Hey Non-Religious,

Well I think it is great that your parenting has worked out to your satisfaction. Of course I cannot speak for all people--just what has been my expirence, both directly and in observation of others... Generalizations are never good, either way.

Some kids need spankings... Your little girl did well without. But as a parent you know good n' well that there is more to parenting than spanking vs. not spanking. If you were very consistent with her, that may be why she was brought up to be such a wonderully mannered young lady. And that is great.

And and believe me, my resturant example is not flawed. I could barely enjoy my margarita at times... Thank God for the Tequila!!! ahha!! That drowns out just about any annoying child's screams and some mother's endless counting...

In addition spanking and smacking are a little different. Smaking indicates slapping in the face or head... And that to me is unnecessary. But spanking on the behind is a more effective and appropriate disipline for a particularly egoscentric child. So no, I don't like smacking. But it seems that people who are against physical disipline lump it all together with beating a child... And that is simply not true. You are not trying to hurt you child by spanking, or are you taking out YOUR anger on them. You are giving them a physical consequence for not listening to you. You are showing them at that moment, they have no choice but to do what you say and have their total attention on you. And that is key in my opinon. Sometimes it is appropriate for your child (and I'm especially talking about small children) to understand that they DON'T have a choice but to do what YOU SAY. That's it, the end... And it seems to me, in great abundance (Though certainly not all..Because parents who spank have unruly kids too) those parent's who do not agree with spanking, also do not agree with any well defined boundries for their kids. They are too busy trying to "open the world" to their small children, that these poor kids have no clue what to do with all the possibilites of choices they are given before they are even ready. So they just run a muck in most cases...
Because hey!!! --"I have a say. They do what I want. I decide when I'm tired of being quiet and still in a resturant. I can say I would rather stay up until Midnight! I can SCREAM whenever I want because I have to explore my "personality"!!! Hurray"!!!-- Meanwhile, I am drowning my annoyance in another Patron on the Rocks and making faces at dear "open-minded" mommy and daddy while they watch their child explore my patience and nearly the food on my plate.

Oh yeah, the example is extreme. But what is sad, is it actually happened.

 

[spinto]

Hey Chrystabelle,

I agree. What you said just goes to show everyone, that every child is different, and every parent it different. I bet you have had to get very creative in finding ways to teach your child. In addition, I bet you've had to become extra aware of how to read your child. Especially when they cannot express themselves the way other children can. I'm sure you have a wealth of experience to teach any parent.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

It's a very fine line to tread becos on the one hand we can overlook a suspected child abuse case and then be completely accountable for the subsequent consequences, if we ignore what we feel is abuse. Or we can go in and take that child out of the family causing a great deal of emotional stress and turmoil, yet be completely wrong.

The life of a social worker is a very difficult one at times....

I guess my main problem with the social worker cited by the OP was that their sole reasoning that the child was being abused was because s/he saw them being smacked. Now I agree social workers have to “tread a fine line”. But that line should err in favour of the parents unless there is substantially more evidence than just a public smack.

There also seems to be a culture amongst social workers ( at least from people I know who are/were social workers or who have dealt with them ), that is anti-parent and anti-discipline, under the guise of being “in the children’s best interests”. Which in my mind turns out to be not in there interest at all.
Can’t speak for all of them obviously, and by your post you appear to be a social worker so if so I’d be interested to hear your views.

 

[Chrystabelle]

So they just run a muck in most cases...
Because hey!!! --"I have a say. They do what I want. I decide when I'm tired of being quite and still in a resturant. I can say I would rather stay up until Midnight! I can SCREAM whenever I want because I have to explore my "personality"!!! Hurray"!!!-- Meanwhile, I am drowning my annoyance in another Patron on the Rocks and making faces at dear "open-minded" mommy and daddy while they watch their child explore my patience and nearly the food on my plate.
Oh yeah, the example is extreme. But what is sad, is it actually happened.

Hi Spinto.
Your restaurant example reminds me very much of a shocking experience which my husband and myself witnessed before we were married with children of our own. We were invited to a dinner party at a friend's house. They had also invited an open-minded couple (artist and musician) with a baby plus several other people without children.

Half-way through the meal the baby's nappy needed changing. She had finished eating on Mum's lap but the rest of us were still eating. Mum promptly changed her in the middle of the living room floor. (That wasn't shocking.) "Oh dear" Mum says, "I don't believe it. I forgot to bring her nappies." "Never mind." says Dad.

Mum then brings baby back to the table and Dad takes her. Then to our amazement and horror, baby is placed on the table whilst we are eating and allowed to crawl up and down (without her nappy on)! Before the meal was over she managed to wee on the table cloth. It seems really surreal now but it actually happened!!!

 

[ebia]

I guess my main problem with the social worker cited by the OP was that their sole reasoning that the child was being abused was because s/he saw them being smacked. Now I agree social workers have to “tread a fine line”. But that line should err in favour of the parents unless there is substantially more evidence than just a public smack.

Sadly, we don't have the social worker's side of the story; perhaps, to them, it appeared to be more than "just a smack".

In addition spanking and smacking are a little different. Smaking indicates slapping in the face or head.

I suspect this is a regional thing, because where I come from the difference is more to do with the number of blows (a smack is a single blow, spanking implies multiple blows) and is certainly nothing to do with where on the body they are directed.

And it seems to me, in great abundance (Though certainly not all..Because parents who spank have unruly kids too) those parent's who do not agree with spanking, also do not agree with any well defined boundries for there kids.

I don't know where you get that idea from. The reverse is clearly going to be true - parents who don't believe in firm boundaries don't use physical punishment, but don't get the two mixed up. I don't see anyone here advocating a free-for-all, so you are addressing something of a straw-man.

The whole "touchy-feely" concept doesn't work for every parent, and people need to realize that and not judge.

Effective non-violent discipline isn't "touchy-feely", but no-one is judging parents who aren't properly equiped to do their job. However, as a society we have to make choices about what is right and wrong, and what we are going to do about that.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I wonder whether anyone can give me their opinion about smacking children. I never slap my children and until recently I had a no-slapping rule in my household.

However, my wife does slap the children occasionally and was very upset recently when a social worker saw her slapping one of our children. The social worker made a huge issue out of it and tried to prosecute.

Luckily my wife foresaw the furore which would ensue and took our child to the doctor immediately. The doctor examined our child and could find no mark on him. The social worker was therefore unable to take the matter further.

This incident has had a very stressful effect on us, as a family. Does anyone else have any similar experiences?

No, but in this case I'd tell the social worker that maybe his mother should have slapped him a little more when he was a kid.

 

[ebia]

I was simply assessing a situation described by another member on this board. But enjoy your patronising put downs all you want if they make you feel special.

You are very kind.

Yes, the system worked by traumatising a famliy, possible putting them to great legal expense to defend themselves. Great "system" we've got here.

That's the best that investigative and legal systems can do - it's always a compromise between the need to catch real offenses and the rights of innocent people not to be harrassed. Sorry, life is never perfect.

Oh of course it does. What an impressive piece of inaccurate stereotyping.

Thankyou, I do try.

Yes - "suspected" because a parent smacked their child in public. Read the OP.

The OP is one side of the story. Unfortunately we don't have the social worker's perspective.

But of course as long as it's other people's families being disrupted and broken up in the face of child abuse charges, we can all sit around on this board smug in the knowledge that the "system is working".

And children are still being abused in huge numbers without the authorities detecting it. You would prefer more of that? What we need to do is improve the way suspected cases are followed up, not ignore them.

 

[ebia]

I totally disagree with the "we don't spank" mentality. I can pick these kids out of a crowd... These are the ones screaming and running around the resturant, while Mommy threatens to count to 3.

What you are looking at is parents who are not implementing effective discipline. The debate isn't between physical punishment and no discipline so you are attacking a straw-man.

Small children are EGOSENTRIC. This means they cannot be reasoned with on the level you think they should be reasoning at. They're little minds are just not there yet.

Reasoning has to be done at their level, sure.

Sometimes they need a little pop on the butt, and that it brings their attention back to you... Then, you can make them understand why they are not to do whatever it was they did wrong. And then you need stick to it. As they get older you won't need to spank because you will then be able to appeal to their maturing ablity to understand how their actions effect the world around them--outside of their direct perspective.

Violence and reasoning are not the only options.

To me, when you try to reason, "aka" bargin, with small children. All you are doing is teaching them to how manipulate you. And that is truely counter productive.

Reasoning is not bagaining. If you see the two as the same there is half your problem.

I never feel children should be beaten... But spanking it neccesary in most cases it seems to me. And it varies. Some kids need a lighter touch than others.

I repeat my question that no-one has addressed: why then does it always seem to vary by parent and not by child?

 

[ebia]

And that's the bottom line.... It is absolutely up to the parents as to how and when they discipline their children. No argument there...

Within limits, of course.

Simply removing the child from the area would suffice or an explanation as to why the child should not touch the stove.

Probably the other way around - explanation first, then consquence such as removal from the area if they don't follow the instruction.

 

[ebia]

[/i]
And it's up to the parents to set them. If it can be done without spanking, wonderful.

It can.

But don't turn up your nose at those at those who can't.

I'm not. It's not turning one's nose up to suggest that physical punishment is both unnecessary and detrimental and that parents should be skilled up to do a better job.

If it takes the occasional spanking for the child to respect his parents' authority, so be it.

A resort to violence implies (to me and to the child) that the parent hasn't got any authority beyond "might makes right".

Too many parents frown on spanking without even bothering to find any other way of teaching their child respect.

Which is partly why I wouldn't wish physical punishment to be banned. Rather, parents need to be trained in alternatives.

At the risk of sounding like an old fogey (and only 19!) that would certainly explain the behavior of most of the children I see in public. Kids these days...

Kids have always been that bad. The kids I was at school with were far worse than the kids I teach now. The "Good Old Days" never existed.

 

[quatona]

I totally disagree with the "we don't spank" mentality. I can pick these kids out of a crowd... These are the ones screaming and running around the resturant, while Mommy threatens to count to 3.

I am convinced that "threatening to count to 3" is as counterproductive as spanking. And it´s not the alternative I am recommending.