Slavery in the bible.

Everybodyknows · Nov 14, 2017

JoeP222w said:
You (nor I) are ancient Israelites under the covenant of Law. So your statement is not true.

In the proper cultural and historical context and the authorial intent of such passage, and not universally applying it to all time for all people.

Ok. I agree. I should say the Bible gave Israelites instructions on how to keep slaves. We find it a moral issue in our time but no one had considered it a moral issue in ancient times.

JoeP222w said:
No. God never explicitly or implicitly says that slavery is universally righteous for all believers for all time.

Nor would I expect him to. But he doesn't explicitly declare it an unrighteous practice either. It's not really an issue of righteousness anyway in cultural context. Much the same as owning cattle is neither considered righteous or unrighteous.

JoeP222w said:
He was dealing with an evil system for the people of that time under the covenant of Law alone

Are you saying then that the Bible is not a standard of objective morality?

CitizenD · Nov 14, 2017

66/40 said:
ABSOLUTLY CORRECT! Had it NOT been for Christianity, slavery more than likely would still be in effect for western civilization.

Amazing how slavery persisted for 1500 years of Christianity!

tansy · Nov 14, 2017

Everybodyknows said:
So God set up a nation based on his laws and morals but couldn't solve the problem of having an functional economy without slavery. Good thing those medieval Europeans worked it out eventually.

Yes, but actually, just how functional is the economy whether we are free or slaves? Nothing is ideal, not in our present human set-ups. In fact, my son tells me it's like living in a prison...yes, one is 'free' in one sense, but not in another.

Soyeong · Nov 14, 2017

Everybodyknows said:
Where exactly does the Bible forbid enslaving people against their will?

Exodus 21:16“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Soyeong · Nov 14, 2017

CitizenD said:
Amazing how slavery persisted for 1500 years of Christianity!

Amazing how Christianity played an instrumental role in stopping slavery!

CitizenD · Nov 14, 2017

You can't claim Christianity was the operative role when slavery existed just fine in Christian nations for more than a thousand years.

Everybodyknows · Nov 14, 2017

tansy said:
Yes, but actually, just how functional is the economy whether we are free or slaves? Nothing is ideal, not in our present human set-ups. In fact, my son tells me it's like living in a prison...yes, one is 'free' in one sense, but not in another.

Metaphoric slavery and actual slavery are entirely different things. We are discussing the moral implications of 'actual' slavery.

tansy · Nov 14, 2017

Everybodyknows said:
Metaphoric slavery and actual slavery are entirely different things. We are discussing the moral implications of 'actual' slavery.

Well, I was replying rather to your asking if God was unable to set up a functioning economy without slavery. Well, frankly, He still hasn't! No doubt, He is able, just that He hasn't done so.
And, just for the record, I do think that slavery is wrong...and I am certain that God thinks it is wrong. I rather think that He didn't outright ban it in the Bible (Thou shalt never, under any circumstances, keep slaves) because stopping things like that all at once, perhaps would cause even more hardship...this is why, to my mind, He gave rules/instructions for ensuring the lives of slaves were made at least a little better.
God took people and gradually informed them of how they ought to be towards others. When you think about it, considering the way the world was all that time back, the Israelites and their way of living would have been a complete culture shock to the other cultures around them. I don't think He expected the world and people to become perfect all at once.

Everybodyknows · Nov 14, 2017

tansy said:
Well, I was replying rather to your asking if God was unable to set up a functioning economy without slavery. Well, frankly, He still hasn't! No doubt, He is able, just that He hasn't done so.

If you equate paid labour with slavery then no, God hasn't set up an economy without slavery. If you equate slavery with owning people as property then economies exist without slavery. You seem to be saying that having to work is slavery, which seems like a rather unfair comparison.

And, just for the record, I do think that slavery is wrong...and I am certain that God thinks it is wrong.

On that we agree

I rather think that He didn't outright ban it in the Bible (Thou shalt never, under any circumstances, keep slaves) because stopping things like that all at once, perhaps would cause even more hardship...this is why, to my mind, He gave rules/instructions for ensuring the lives of slaves were made at least a little better.
God took people and gradually informed them of how they ought to be towards others. When you think about it, considering the way the world was all that time back, the Israelites and their way of living would have been a complete culture shock to the other cultures around them. I don't think He expected the world and people to become perfect all at once.

How did we work out that slavery was wrong? What guided human morality to eventually come to that conclusion after a few thousand years?

SoldierOfTheKing · Nov 14, 2017

Everybodyknows said:
So God set up a nation based on his laws and morals but couldn't solve the problem of having an functional economy without slavery. Good thing those medieval Europeans worked it out eventually.

Slavery didn't end because people decided that it was immoral. Slavery ended because a more efficient form of labor relations was developed.

Everybodyknows · Nov 14, 2017

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Slavery didn't end because people decided that it was immoral. Slavery ended because a more efficient form of labor relations was developed.

So if times changed and slavery again became a more efficient form of labor relations, would that justify a return to the slavery system.

ml5363 · Nov 14, 2017

Par5 said:
Even in the 21st century, it is a sad fact the slavery is still happening in the world. Most people find this disgusting practice to be totally repugnant and immoral. Slavery was very common in biblical times and it seems strange that the biblical god did not condemn the practice of having slaves, but instead gave instructions on the keeping of slaves. The same god that condemned a man to death for simply gathering sticks on the Sabbath, a "crime" hardly in the same league as slavery.
So the question is quite simply this. Do you consider it morally acceptable to consider another human being to be your property?

Jesus came to save us, keep us from hell.. he didn't come to change the laws and government which is why the Pharisee didn't like him...

ml5363 · Nov 14, 2017

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Slavery didn't end because people decided that it was immoral. Slavery ended because a more efficient form of labor relations was developed.

In a sense we are all slaves...are we not forced to work everyday.. many just barely getting by pay check to paycheck .sounds familiar

elliott95 · Nov 14, 2017

Par5 said:
Well, you did say, "Maybe Brits haven't got the message yet.

What I said was:

That was a nineteenth century problem solved by Christians, for the most part.
Maybe Brits haven't got the message yet. .....

Click to expand...

Anyone who knew that about British history would simply not ask the questions that you did.

I can only assume you were including me in that.

Click to expand...

Because you don't seem to realize that your questions pertain to problems solved-by British Christians no less- in the nineteenth century.

As we both agree that slavery is wrong, why is it that the biblical god never said it was wrong.

Click to expand...

There have been many answers given to that already.
Like I say, British Christians, well more studied in the Bible than you are I, were the ones that figured out that slavery was immoral, and it was them who crushed the slave trade, directly as a response to what Jesus instructed their hearts to do.
They were able to see the forest for the trees. It is a special skill needed to understand the Bible in all its complexity.

Click to expand...

elliott95 · Nov 14, 2017

Everybodyknows said:
Where exactly does the Bible forbid enslaving people against their will?

Exodus, where God kicked pharaoh's butt big time for enslaving his people after Moses asked the petulant god-king to "let my people go".
That is a pretty important book in the scheme of things. One would think that it would be pretty hard to miss.

OldWiseGuy · Nov 14, 2017

Par5 said:
Do you consider it morally acceptable to consider another human being to be your property?

Absolutely. And they should be made to work without pay as well, doing whatever their parents require. Of course they should be treated humanely.

elliott95 · Nov 14, 2017

When it comes to what the Bible says on slavery, I think I will take the actions that believers in the Bible have taken to eradicate slavery world wide as giving the better understanding than the superficial understanding given to us by non-believers who make the argument that we really ought to still believe in slavery.

essentialsaltes · Nov 14, 2017

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Slavery didn't end because people decided that it was immoral. Slavery ended because a more efficient form of labor relations was developed.

That is certainly not how it ended in the United States.

Strathos · Nov 14, 2017

elliott95 said:
It was an argument that was solved in the nineteenth century. Today, except for fundamentalist Islamist extremist groups, the immorality of owning slaves is more universally accepted than the question of whether or not the earth is flat.
Outside of criminal groups, who don't care about moral questions, or Islamists, the wrongness of slavery is universally accepted.
You will get more people arguing over the shape of the earth than you will get people arguing about the immorality of slavery.

Having argued with many a flat earther, I can say that you're right.

elliott95 · Nov 14, 2017

Strathos said:
Having argued with many a flat earther, I can say that you're right.

Yea, having (almost) gotten into an argument myself with someone who believes that the moon emits its own light rather than reflecting the sun's light, I am acutely aware of just how right I am. In the end, what arguments could be possibly be made to convince a flat earther of the error of his ways. Sometimes it is best just to laugh than engage in pointless arguments.
The silver lining to that is that it is actually quite hilarious that flat earthers et al exist. There is no moral consequence to being too goofy on topics that don't really matter.
There would be nothing funny, on the other hand, with hearing people argue for the right to own slaves, after all that has happened in the history of the slave trade. There is grim satisfaction in knowing just how rare such people who believe in such things are nowadays. Islamists, pimps, Indian factories staffed by untouchables and the like, all in all it is people who have no interest in right or wrong, and who therefore don't bother to make an moral argument for their cause are the only people who believe in slavery today.
No one who want to think of himself as a fine and upstanding citizens makes a case for slavery in today's world.
That is a real, Christian victory that the whole world has by and large bought into today.

Slavery in the bible.

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