Slavery - and particularly the Ethics of Slavery

[Philip_B]

The question of slavery came up as a bi-product of another discussion I was in. I had simply assumed that all Christians would see slavery as an ethical issue, and regard it as totally immoral. I felt a little like a lonely voice.

A couple of points:

There is a timeline here which you may find interesting.
Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom - Wikipedia

1834 Slavery becomes illegal in the British Empire - except for BEIC Controlled areas
1865 Slavery abolished by the 13th Amendment. Ratified over time - in 2013 by Mississippi.
1954 UN Declaration of Human Rights - Article 4
1926-1956-2008 Slavery Convention ratified by 99 Countries.

Current estimates as to the number of slaves in the world is around 40 million people.

India (8 million),
China (3.86 million),
Pakistan (3.19 million), - signed the convention is 1956
North Korea (2.64 million),
Nigeria (1.39 million), - signed the convention in 1961
Indonesia (1.22 million),
Democratic Republic of the Congo (1 million),
Russia (794,000)
the Philippines (784,000) - signed the convention in 1955​

Slavery was clearly part of life in Biblical times, and whilst some scripture is intended to regulate abuse, and yet there is little to outright condemn the practice on scripture alone.

Please try and be polite, and perhaps we might learn something from one another.

 

[Silverback]

The question of slavery came up as a bi-product of another discussion I was in. I had simply assumed that all Christians would see slavery as an ethical issue, and regard it as totally immoral. I felt a little like a lonely voice.

A couple of points:

There is a timeline here which you may find interesting.
Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom - Wikipedia

1834 Slavery becomes illegal in the British Empire - except for BEIC Controlled areas
1865 Slavery abolished by the 13th Amendment. Ratified over time - in 2013 by Mississippi.
1954 UN Declaration of Human Rights - Article 4
1926-1956-2008 Slavery Convention ratified by 99 Countries.

Current estimates as to the number of slaves in the world is around 40 million people.

India (8 million),
China (3.86 million),
Pakistan (3.19 million), - signed the convention is 1956
North Korea (2.64 million),
Nigeria (1.39 million), - signed the convention in 1961
Indonesia (1.22 million),
Democratic Republic of the Congo (1 million),
Russia (794,000)
the Philippines (784,000) - signed the convention in 1955​

Slavery was clearly part of life in Biblical times, and whilst some scripture is intended to regulate abuse, and yet there is little to outright condemn the practice on scripture alone.

Please try and be polite, and perhaps we might learn something from one another.

I have heard several explanations of the biblical practice, and how it was "different" than the type of slavery practiced in Europe and North America...it simply seems like an exercise in semantics.

The bottom line is the same, groups of people with no rights, kept in bondage, and forced to work for someone else with the threat of abuse, violence, negligence and death if they don't comply.

I would never want to be enslaved, so I find the practice reprehensible.

As far as the numbers you have given, seems we have a long way to go.

Often, people lump those imprisoned for crimes and tasked to work without pay as "slaves" that would be unpleasant, but it's not slavery.

 

[Sketcher]

I don't see how Colossians 4:1 can be followed today, especially in the West. Therefore, the institution of slavery should remain dead and buried. It happens illegally, but those who practice it should be punished.

 

[honey badger]

according to Proverbs slavery is on the increase of late ...

The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.

 

[Tolworth John]

Slavery was clearly part of life in Biblical times, and whilst some scripture is intended to regulate abuse, and yet there is little to outright condemn the practice on scripture alone

The ancient world and early biblical world accepted that slavery was normal.
One also has to distinguish between the slavery resulting from war and the contractual indenture that was permitted among the Israelites.

Slaves had no rights, so the biblical instructions to treat them properly was radical.

If debating slavery in the Bible, do establish what moral standards your opponent has, and what it is based upon.
If they are atheist, ask they why they oppose slavery ?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If we can point to individuals or assume that many who were slaves benefitted from the slavery arrangement in not only material ways but on a deeper more spiritual way, we should perhaps rethink our commitment to modern ideas of freedom or liberation. This is why people have such a problem with what Paul said regarding slaves staying in their places. They are committed to a paradigm wherein personal freedom or liberty is the thing of paramount importance, whereas the Apostle never operated on such enlightenment principles.

I don't want to justify all forms of it. Islamic sex slavery is something I find particularly revolting but at the same time I cannot reduce this common practice of humanity to simply to it being evil or in all forms unacceptable.

If we're talking about serfdom as a kind of slavery that system had value and the idea that everyone being free as they are today is a good thing seems to lack credibility when your average Jill or Joe uses that freedom to not better himself but to often worsen her/his situation.

Thus I'm more morally neutral on the question. Recognizing the abuses when it happened but acknowledging that there have been people who have benefited from servitude.

 

[Philip_B]

Clearly for many of us, we live in jurisdictions which prohibit both slavery and slave trading, so for us there would be added to anything else the question of doing something illegal.

My first and real problem with slavery per se is that fellow human beings are accorded the status of property. It is not simply a different kind of employment contract, but rather it treats human beings as one might treat a horse, fed, watered and put to work. This denies the dignity that should be accorded every human being as one made in the image and after the likeness of God. The moment we pray 'Our Father . . . ' we are according the status of brother or sister to all humanity.

The word slave appears 82 times in the four Gospels. One difficulty we have is that it is not always clear where the intent to to speak of servants, as against slaves. This may be indicative of a little less clarity, and a wider social acceptance than we have in our day.

 

[Philip_B]

Slaves had no rights, so the biblical instructions to treat them properly was radical.

They also were set free in the jubilee, so the endless passing of servitude from one generation to another was by no means absolute.

 

[Philip_B]

If we can point to individuals or assume that many who were slaves benefitted from the slavery arrangement in not only material ways but on a deeper more spiritual way, we should perhaps rethink our commitment to modern ideas of freedom or liberation.

I think that is an interesting question. In a hard world, slavery perhaps gave one life, which was no doubt better than the alternative. There is however still the fundamental question of personhood.

 

[Tolworth John]

They also were set free in the jubilee, so the endless passing of servitude from one generation to another was by no means absolute.

No, that only referred to indentured Israelites who had not elected to stay as slaves with their master.
Those enslaved through war were slaves for life.

 

[Ohorseman]

To me, in this day, it is about "doing unto others as I would have them do unto me", as Our Lord Christ taught. In my time and space, I can't imagine a scenario where I would want to be an actual slave and so I should not want to enslave. In that sense, to me it would be a sin to enslave... though no other place in the Bible indicates that it is directly a sin, to my knowledge. It is not a legal feature of our economy today, so in that since it would also be sinful. So, today, in this time and space, I vote immoral.

HOWEVER, in times past it was a legal feature of the economy. In that situation the dynamics are different and I would not be able to neatly apply the "do unto others" rule. Then, being a good master could even be a virtue... though that comment rightly offends our "modern" programming. And in times past, being a bad master would be sinful, as the scriptures indicate. But those things are not here and now. And many can not even think about those realities without out getting triggered, and often with extravagant and sensationalized support.

That said, thinking outside of the box, I can imagine bizarre scenarios where making someone a slave would actually be an act of kindness and mercy. Thank God that we do not live in conditions so harsh that this were true.

 

[Philip_B]

To me, in this day, it is about "doing unto others as I would have them do unto me", as Our Lord Christ taught. In my time and space, I can't imagine a scenario where I would want to be an actual slave and so I should not want to enslave. In that sense, to me it would be a sin to enslave... though no other place in the Bible indicates that it is directly a sin, to my knowledge. It is not a legal feature of our economy today, so in that since it would also be sinful. So, today, in this time and space, I vote immoral.

HOWEVER, in times past it was a legal feature of the economy. In that situation the dynamics are different and I would not be able to neatly apply the "do unto others" rule. Then, being a good master could even be a virtue... though that comment rightly offends our "modern" programming. And in times past, being a bad master would be sinful, as the scriptures indicate. But those things are not here and now. And many can not even think about those realities without out getting triggered, and often with extravagant and sensationalized support.

That said, thinking outside of the box, I can imagine bizarre scenarios where making someone a slave would actually be an act of kindness and mercy. Thank God that we do not live in conditions so harsh that this were true.

So what do you say to the 40 million people who are slaves today?

 

[Yekcidmij]

The ancient world and early biblical world accepted that slavery was normal.
One also has to distinguish between the slavery resulting from war and the contractual indenture that was permitted among the Israelites.

Slaves had no rights, so the biblical instructions to treat them properly was radical.

If debating slavery in the Bible, do establish what moral standards your opponent has, and what it is based upon.
If they are atheist, ask they why they oppose slavery ?

I think one of the moral problems is people owning other people as property. The principle idea is that people own themselves in an inalienable way and so for someone else to claim property rights over their lives is theft at best and can only be accomplished and maintained by way of violence and coercion. Thus, slavery is unjust and immoral.

So maybe one of the moral standards is "do not steal." We could probably find a few others relating to justice too.

 

[Yekcidmij]

That said, thinking outside of the box, I can imagine bizarre scenarios where making someone a slave would actually be an act of kindness and mercy.

I'm having trouble seeing how violence and coercion are somehow really merciful and kindness. I mean, it sounds like you're suggesting that people can be treated as animals.

 

[Yekcidmij]

To me, in this day, it is about "doing unto others as I would have them do unto me", as Our Lord Christ taught. In my time and space, I can't imagine a scenario where I would want to be an actual slave and so I should not want to enslave. In that sense, to me it would be a sin to enslave... though no other place in the Bible indicates that it is directly a sin, to my knowledge. It is not a legal feature of our economy today, so in that since it would also be sinful. So, today, in this time and space, I vote immoral.

HOWEVER, in times past it was a legal feature of the economy. In that situation the dynamics are different and I would not be able to neatly apply the "do unto others" rule. Then, being a good master could even be a virtue... though that comment rightly offends our "modern" programming. And in times past, being a bad master would be sinful, as the scriptures indicate. But those things are not here and now. And many can not even think about those realities without out getting triggered, and often with extravagant and sensationalized support.

Do you believe morality equals legality? As in, if something is legal it is therefore moral? Or do you believe in some kind of conditional view of morality where valid moral values depend on legal structures or cultural systems? It seems these positions would be quite difficult (really, impossible) to defend.

 

[Ohorseman]

I'm having trouble seeing how violence and coercion are somehow really merciful and kindness. I mean, it sounds like you're suggesting that people can be treated as animals.

Then you are not listening. Please read again what I wrote. Read it more carefully. And this time do not ascribe evil ideas onto my words that are not there. Avoid bearing false witness, please.

 

[Ohorseman]

So what do you say to the 40 million people who are slaves today?

I do not rightly know, sir. I would tell them what the Spirit has me say, if I am walking in the spirit at the time and not the flesh. A hard thing.

Really, it would depend on their situation. You have to know the circumstances to know what to say it would seem. I went to your list. I just picked one. The Philippines. I read this article about slavery there.

261K Filipinos victims of modern slavery

It was junk, really. Here is a copy and paste that relates to your country.

In 2013, young Filipino boxers were allegedly trafficked into Australia on sporting visas, where they were held in a debt bondage situation and forced to work in unpaid domestic labor.​

The write up has a lot of bits like that. No details. Could have been legitimate, with how sports sponsorship works and all. This article even puts children working for their families at harvest as slaves. If that is the case, my state of Georgia has a lot of white slavery, LOL. Farm boys. It's just how they grow up. Our so called news media is pathetic. "Reports" are written or talked about based upon what gets attention, views. It does not even have to be true. Everybody lies. News media. Government.

I wonder if all of them on the list have such weak support. Maybe I just happen to pick the worst article by chance, LOL.

I have heard a lot about the slavery in China. How much is true, I wonder. How much is American, or Western, propaganda, I wonder. Since Bush and the "weapons of mass destruction", I just take things with a grain of salt.

From your list, which one is the worst and do you have a link that has a solid report of it, like with proof and all? I would like to read that.

​

 

[Yekcidmij]

Then you are not listening. Please read again what I wrote. Read it more carefully. And this time do not ascribe evil ideas onto my words that are not there. Avoid bearing false witness, please.

Slavery entails violence and coercion (otherwise it doesn't work) and you said there could be cases where this is merciful and kind. Please explain the apparent inconsistency here. I'm not sure what this has to do with "bearing false witness."

 

[Philip_B]

I do not rightly know, sir. I would tell them what the Spirit has me say, if I am walking in the spirit at the time and not the flesh. A hard thing.

Really, it would depend on their situation. You have to know the circumstances to know what to say it would seem. I went to your list. I just picked one. The Philippines. I read this article about slavery there.

261K Filipinos victims of modern slavery

It was junk, really. Here is a copy and paste that relates to your country.

In 2013, young Filipino boxers were allegedly trafficked into Australia on sporting visas, where they were held in a debt bondage situation and forced to work in unpaid domestic labor.​

The write up has a lot of bits like that. No details. Could have been legitimate, with how sports sponsorship works and all. This article even puts children working for their families at harvest as slaves. If that is the case, my state of Georgia has a lot of white slavery, LOL. Farm boys. It's just how they grow up. Our so called news media is pathetic. "Reports" are written or talked about based upon what gets attention, views. It does not even have to be true. Everybody lies. News media. Government.

I wonder if all of them on the list have such weak support. Maybe I just happen to pick the worst article by chance, LOL.

I have heard a lot about the slavery in China. How much is true, I wonder. How much is American, or Western, propaganda, I wonder. Since Bush and the "weapons of mass destruction", I just take things with a grain of salt.

From your list, which one is the worst and do you have a link that has a solid report of it, like with proof and all? I would like to read that.

​

Sorry I should have posted a link to the source of the numbers. Here it is. Statistics

Possibly India looms large, and of course the west does like cheap products from 3rd world countries.
India is home to the world’s largest slave population (Yes, slavery still exists)

The issue of proof is going to depend on what you are like to accept.

Contemporary slavery often 'invisible and clandestine': UN rights expert
World must not accept slavery in 21st century: Guterres

Amnesty International's Modern Slavery Act Transparency Statement

Global Slavery Index

 

[Ohorseman]

I mean, it sounds like you're suggesting that people can be treated as animals.

You wrote, "it sounds like you're suggesting that people can be treated as animals." I never suggested that.

I'm not sure what this has to do with "bearing false witness."

It is one of the 10 commandments, located in the Bible in Exodus 20:1–17 and Deuteronomy 5:4–21. I will just post the one from Exodus.

1 And God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. 13 “You shall not murder. 14 “You shall not commit adultery. 15 “You shall not steal. 16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”​

Also, a similar command is in Exodus 23:1.

23 “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
​

If this you already know, forgive me. I am not trying to belittle you. But, I have stopped assuming that Christians know their Bible, because over and over again I am seeing that they do not. Hello, neighbor. LOL.