Slavery, a Guide

[InterestedAtheist]

Congratulations - you've made a coherent point. Yes, these stipulations describe common practices at the time, putting in writing the results of various scenarios of how the business of slavery was managed in Hebrew society. Now you can explain how a society 3,000 years could have been run along 21st Century lines.

Why bother? Let's accept that it couldn't. Let's accept that slavery is an integral part of humanity's sinful nature, and that God couldn't just change people to be good enough. But that's not your problem, is it? It isn't that God just accepted the existence of slavery. In his role as the Father, in his role as Jesus Christ, and through His Prophets, Apostles and Bible, God actively encouraged, commanded and praised slavery.
In short, the Bible doesn't show God to be reluctantly accepting slavery as a necessary evil. It shows that God likes slavery, and considers it a good thing. It shows God to be pro-slavery.

By the way, can I ask: have you read the excerpts I posted? As I said, if you like I can rewrite them in modern English.

 

[Tom 1]

Not really. It's quite simple. The Bible refers to slaves a number of times, and always with approval. This is the argument you have to address, if you can.

Come on you made an actual point in one post, don't go off again into lala land. You presented Warren's arguments and claim they are in the bible - you can go through his claims one at a time then and show me where they are in the bible. That would be making an argument. Then you could address the other points you have ignored in an equally coherent way. The bible describes the practice of slavery as was common at the time, it neither approves or disapproves. Slavery was a given, the rules are about how people should behave towards their slaves. Now, slavery is anathema to the majority of people in the west. Then, it wasn't. It still isn't in many parts of the world. Naturally, there are reasons for that. If we still actually needed slave labour to make Western society work (more than we actually still do that is) then questions about its morality would take a back seat, as the question of whether it is fair for someone to live a worse life than a slave in ancient Israel to provide raw materials for its construction take a back seat when we want to buy a smartphone, and questions of how to keep Western Society as a whole afloat mean that questions of how our abundance means scarcity for others take a back seat much of the time. To have any kind of argument to make you need to demonstrate how a cohesive, functioning society in the 2-3rd Millennium BC would have been possible without some form of slavery, how it would have been formed and maintained over many centuries, how those people who lived in bondage to others might have been able to fend for themselves otherwise and so on. That would provide you with an actual, credible standpoint from which to declare how things actually happened 'wrong' as you are able to provide a coherent alternative that would have been better. No short cuts and excuses allowed, you are an adult after all so please think like one.

 

[Tom 1]

God actively encouraged, commanded and praised slavery.
In short, the Bible doesn't show God to be reluctantly accepting slavery as a necessary evil. It shows that God likes slavery, and considers it a good thing. It shows God to be pro-slavery.

Where?

By the way, can I ask: have you read the excerpts I posted? As I said, if you like I can rewrite them in modern English.

Yes, you claim that Warren's views are in the bible. He makes several references to specific things he says are in the bible, he's your 'witness', it should be a simple matter for you to identify the passages he claims are in the bible and present them here.

 

[Tom 1]

Oh, and look at this: also from 1861 - "A discourse on mutual relations of master and slave, as taught in the Bible," by Pastor Joseph Wilson. It quite clearly explains how the word "servant" refers to slaves in the Bible.

EPHESIANS, VI: 5-9:--"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; with good-will doing service, as to the Lord and not to men; knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening, knowing that your Master also is in Heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."
Our attention is forcibly arrested by the very first word of this text; "servants." There is no difficulty in ascertaining its true meaning, in the original Greek. It distinctly and unequivocally signifies "slaves," springing as it does in this its substantive form from a verbal root, which means to bind. There are several words, conveying different shades of thought, which Grecians were accustomed to employ in speaking of servants, inasmuch as there are several kinds and degrees of servitude. But no one of them does so emphatically set forth the true and simple idea of domestic slavery as understood in these Southern States, as the word "

"--the word whose plural form opens our text. It refers us to a man who is in the relation of permanent and legal bondage to another: this other having in him and his labor the strictest rights of property. The word is never employed to indicate the condition of amere hireling. It points out a dependent who is solely under the authority of a master: that master being the head of a household and wielding over his slaves the commission of a despot, whose acts are to be determined only by the restraining laws of Christianity and by general considerations of his own and their welfare: a despot responsible to God, a good conscience, and the well-being of society. I use this word "despot" advisedly. It is the scriptural opposite of "slave,"

Neither your nor I read ancient Greek, if you want to look into that you'll find that there are almost always differing opinions on what this or that term means. I have worked as a translator of other languages, so I have some understanding of the complexities involved.

That said, yes the NT and the early Church fathers laid out the basic rule that whatever condition a person came into the church in was the position they should maintain, unless it involved some direct contradiction of personal faith, such as swearing fealty to an idol or something of that sort. It's quite a basic thing to see why, slavery was entirely legal at the time, pretty much everywhere, and besides the basic requirement placed on Christians as individuals to obey the law, a runaway slave could expect any punishment from beatings to death, so in that scenario it is unlikely than many would have seen encouraging slaves to run - where? - to have been advisable. Here's the bit you're going to ignore - Christians are called to behave as Christ did, Paul argues this point as delicately as he can over Onesimus, a runaway slave he sheltered for a period of time, recognising that dedicating himself to a slave revolt would go against his broader calling, but also trying to persuade Onesimus's master, as a Christian, to release him from slavery. This is the basic reality of what the kingdom of God is in the bible, a compromise state in which the priority is to live individually as Christ commands while also being obedient to the laws of the state, keeping the peace, and within the fundamental limitations imposed by the fact of being a human living in a human society. In the 1800s the former requirement won out over the latter two, at least as far as slavery went, but this was also the end result of practical considerations, the West had already become rich enough to sustain itself without slavery. Without context, what you rather generously call arguments are utterly without meaning.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I’m not sure what distinction you are making between sinless/perfect here. If we couldn’t make mistakes, we wouldn’t be human. Personally, I like being human. What do you take being ‘sinless’ to mean? Something other than being perfect or not making mistakes?

Sinless means god has removed your sin through the sacrifice of Jesus. Perfect means like god. Jesus said to be perfect like your father in heaven which includes having no sin. Making mistakes is not sinful, sin is disobeying what god has commanded.

I suppose you can take Peter’s example to illustrate what that might mean, certainly he had his issues but believed in making ‘every effort’ as he said in one of his letters. The picture of the afterlife in the NT suggests some other state that comes out of or is a natural progression of that kind of life of faith.

Can you sin in the afterlife?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I understand what the words mean, I don’t understand what your reasons for thinking it makes sense are. It’s just a jumble of stuff. What is this ‘perfect’ thing you keep mentioning? Where does that come from and what do you mean by it?

Nb I didn’t claim whatever it is you think I did there about forgiveness, please read the post again.

Could God have created all of us in heaven or on the new earth or whatever you believe about the afterlife and bypassed all this pain and suffering? That would have been my solution to stopping slavery and other horrible sin if I were God. This is my main point.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This is just some random stuff you think, that’s the point I’m making. What does it actually relate to? People live and do things - now, in the past, in the future. We don’t exist in some abstract state where random notions have some sort of actual validity. How can you demonstrate how your beliefs about this would actually be applied in the world? If your answer is just ‘I don’t know’ then why do you think it makes any sense?

WTH? This all started by you asking me what God could have done to stop slavery. I have answered that many times. I will do that one more time.

God could have stopped slavery by creating us as perfect in the afterlife, bypassing all this pain and suffering in this world. That is what I would have done if I were God. All would be saved, no one suffering in hell forever or is annihilated.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

How? How would God stop people from doing what people do? You don’t appear to be considering that your questions relate to actual things that happen. If you want to make some point about it, you would need to provide some credible alternative for how civilisation might have developed.

I have answered this many times which you have ignored many times calling it just words. Either respond to my solution or don't, but stop saying I never answered it just because it is not an answer you like or expected.

 

[Tom 1]

WTH? This all started by you asking me what God could have done to stop slavery. I have answered that many times. I will do that one more time.

God could have stopped slavery by creating us as perfect in the afterlife, bypassing all this pain and suffering in this world. That is what I would have done if I were God. All would be saved, no one suffering in hell forever or is annihilated.

I get what you mean, I think, i.e. that if you were in charge you would never have let people just do whatever people do, so you're proposing some sort of alternate universe where there is no such thing as a civilisation developed by people etc. I'm not really sure how that addresses questions of how things have happened and why in the universe we do live in however.

 

[Tom 1]

I have answered this many times which you have ignored many times calling it just words. Either respond to my solution or don't, but stop saying I never answered it just because it is not an answer you like or expected.

Sure, ok, I initially thought you were talking about some scenario that involved things as they have happened in human history, as opposed to some sort of alternate universe idea where the whole set up would have been entirely different from the start. Ok, well I suppose we can all imagine some alternate universe where things might be fundamentally different. What do you propose to do with that idea?

 

[Tom 1]

Sinless means god has removed your sin through the sacrifice of Jesus. Perfect means like god. Jesus said to be perfect like your father in heaven which includes having no sin. Making mistakes is not sinful, sin is disobeying what god has commanded.

Ok, those are your definitions.

Can you sin in the afterlife?

Apparently not, the bible is a bit vague on what that means exactly. The idea of progression through this life being integral to what happens next is more than just a little implicit however, as in the other major religions.

 

[Tom 1]

Could God have created all of us in heaven or on the new earth or whatever you believe about the afterlife and bypassed all this pain and suffering? That would have been my solution to stopping slavery and other horrible sin if I were God. This is my main point.

Sure I suppose God could have made people who never had the opportunity to be people in the way that we are.

 

[Arc F1]

It is not the fact that the Hebrews used to have slaves but that the God of the bible and teh God Christians worship wrote specific instructions for slavery and many of the rules are pretty brutal. If this God exists and inspired the Bible He cannot be good.

By who's definition of good?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Sure, ok, I initially thought you were talking about some scenario that involved things as they have happened in human history, as opposed to some sort of alternate universe idea where the whole set up would have been entirely different from the start. Ok, well I suppose we can all imagine some alternate universe where things might be fundamentally different. What do you propose to do with that idea?

I am not suggesting an alternate universe. I an suggesting that God could have had a better plan that would have eliminated pain and suffering. Just created all humans in heaven and so we could love each other for eternity. Instead we have this clownshow. I am not asking you to do anything with this idea, it was an answer to your question about how god could have god stopped slavery in the ancient world.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Ok, those are your definitions.



Apparently not, the bible is a bit vague on what that means exactly. The idea of progression through this life being integral to what happens next is more than just a little implicit however, as in the other major religions.

Ok, then god could have created us in the afterlife to begin with and sin would have been eliminated. Or is this not a power god has?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Sure I suppose God could have made people who never had the opportunity to be people in the way that we are.

Great. The bible says we are all worthless and bad and we won't be the same people in heaven anyway. What is the point of this life if God is just going to fix it all anyway. Just do it sooner.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

By who's definition of good?

Mine. Do you think owning other people as property is good?

 

[Arc F1]

Mine. Do you think owning other people as property is good?

You are applying your own views and definitions to the past. I have no idea what it was like back then. If God said slavery was bad would people have listened? Maybe he could see that regardless of his word we were going to do it anyway. Idk.

No I don't approve of lazy people owning another. Most people didn't, that's why it was abolished.

 

[Tom 1]

I am not suggesting an alternate universe. I an suggesting that God could have had a better plan that would have eliminated pain and suffering. Just created all humans in heaven and so we could love each other for eternity. Instead we have this clownshow. I am not asking you to do anything with this idea, it was an answer to your question about how god could have god stopped slavery in the ancient world.

Well yes I suppose one solution to problems in the ancient world or modern world would be not to have any world at all. Life doesn't seem all that bad to me, a lot of bad things happen but a lot of good things do also. If your idea is that everything should have been done completely differently from the start then it would be interesting to hear what your plan would be in more detail, just out of curiosity.

 

[Tom 1]

What is the point of this life if God is just going to fix it all anyway

Is that the idea?