Sins after Baptism

[Giver]

Anyone claiming to be *with* sin is claiming to be unrepentant and unforgiven . If you were repentant and received forgiveness , you are without sin .

What you say is true unless you are one who has come to know God/has come to the knowledge of the truth. There is no longer any sacrifice for their sin.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve I explained how it is that God has kept me sin free in a previous post on this thread.

I wonder in you can read, and understand the following Saints letter?
The following is a letter by Saint. Maximus the Confessor and it explains in a very unique way what I have been saying, that people who know God do not sin.


The manner of birth from God within us is two-fold: the one bestows the grace of adoption, which is entirely present in potency in those who are born of God; the other introduces, wholly by active exertion, that grace which deliberately reorients the entire free choice of the one being born of God toward the God who gives birth. The first bears the grace, present in potency through faith alone; but the second, beyond, also engenders in the knower the sublimely divine likeness of the One known, that likeness being effected precisely through knowledge. Therefore the first manner of birth is observed in some because their will, not yet fully detached from its propensity to the flesh, has yet to be wholly endowed with the Spirit by participation in the divine mysteries that are made known through active endeavor. The inclination to sin does not disappear as long as they will it. For the Spirit does not give birth to an unwilling will, but converts the willing will toward deification. (So a person doesn’t stop sinning just because they will not to sin.) Whoever has participated in this deification through cognizance experience is incapable of reverting from right discernment in truth, once he has achieved this in action, to something else besides, which only pretends to be that same discernment. (Once a person comes to know God, through the Holy Spirit, they are incapable of reverting to their sinful ways.) It is like the eye, which, once it has looked upon the sun, cannot mistake it for the moon or any of the other stars in the heavens. With those undergoing the (second mode of) birth, the Holy Spirit takes the whole of their free choice and translates it completely from earth to heaven, and, through the true knowledge acquired by exertion, transfigures the mind with the blessed light rays of our God and Father, such that the mind is deemed another “God,” insofar as in its habitude if experiences, by grace, that which God himself does not experience but “is” in his very essence. With those undergoing this second mode of baptism, their free choice clearly becomes sinless in virtue and knowledge, as they are unable to negate what they have actively discerned through experience. So even if we have the Spirit of adoption, who is himself the Seed for enduring those begotten (through baptism) with the likeness of the Sower, but do not present him with a will cleansed of any inclination or disposition to something else, we therefore, even after being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5), willingly sin. But were we to prepare our will with knowledge to receive the operation of these agents-water and Spirit, I mean-then the mystical water would, through our practical life, cleanse our conscience, and the life-giving Spirit would bring about unchanging perfection of the good in us through knowledge acquired in experience. Precisely for that reason he leaves, to each of us who are still able to sin, the sheer desire to surrender our whole selves willing to the Spirit.

St. Maximus the Confessor

He seems to be talking of grace of adoption, whereby one may sin; and a "second baptism," which he terms "deification." But nowhere is he stating that those Christians who sin will not be forgiven.

The concept of deification is something Catholics bellieve in, although we may prefer to call it participation in the Divine Nature, like Peter. We believe in the concept of Christian perfection, but that is only completed in heaven. It is a goal we have.

But you ought not to be telling others that committing a sin is unforgiveable. That is a serious error. The only unpardonable sin is refusal to repent.

 

[steve_bakr]

Anyone claiming to be *with* sin is claiming to be unrepentant and unforgiven . If you were repentant and received forgiveness , you are without sin .

The only way to be repentant is to acknowledge sin. We Catholics speak of being in a "state of grace," which is to be without mortal sin--ie., adultery, fornication, etc.--but acknowledge that we may fall short--ie., venial sin--at any time. Do we not do that which we ought not or not do that which we ought? Do we not have that stray thought?

 

[steve_bakr]

What you say is true unless you are one who has come to know God/has come to the knowledge of the truth. There is no longer any sacrifice for their sin.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

These verses are warning against apostasy, which was a major issue in those times of persecution. But even apostasy can be forgiven after repentance.

One value of Bible commentaries is that they help you learn the context and background of verses you are trying to understand. This may help to avoid errors in interpretation. To interpret the Bible with no external helps easily leads to errors.

 

[Giver]

These verses are warning against apostasy, which was a major issue in those times of persecution. But even apostasy can be forgiven after repentance.

One value of Bible commentaries is that they help you learn the context and background of verses you are trying to understand. This may help to avoid errors in interpretation. To interpret the Bible with no external helps easily leads to errors.

You have nothing to confirm you belief that all the verses I quoted are leading to apostasy. What you do have is man’s understanding of scripture that is wrong. The unspiritual man can’t understand how one can live without sinning, so needs to make scripture say something that it does not say. I show you verses that tell us a Christian will not sin, and all you can do is say I don’t know what I am talking about. You need to make me wrong, but don’t have any scripture to confirm your accusations.

You keep implying that I am interpretation the bible with out any outside help? What out side help do you get, and what make your help right?

I will share again what outside help that is given to me. Jesus/Holy Spirit has been teaching me the Word of God for over forty years. Jesus has sat next to me and had me open the bible to verses that he explained to me.

 

[Giver]

He seems to be talking of grace of adoption, whereby one may sin; and a "second baptism," which he terms "deification." But nowhere is he stating that those Christians who sin will not be forgiven.

The concept of deification is something Catholics bellieve in, although we may prefer to call it participation in the Divine Nature, like Peter. We believe in the concept of Christian perfection, but that is only completed in heaven. It is a goal we have.

But you ought not to be telling others that committing a sin is unforgiveable. That is a serious error. The only unpardonable sin is refusal to repent.

Show me were in the Word of God that the only unforgivable sin is refusing to repent?

 

[Yab Yum]

Jesus has sat next to me and had me open the bible to verses that he explained to me.

Impressive. Most impressive.

 

[Tangible]

And fascinating.

 

[steve_bakr]

You have nothing to confirm you belief that all the verses I quoted are leading to apostasy. What you do have is man’s understanding of scripture that is wrong. The unspiritual man can’t understand how one can live without sinning, so needs to make scripture say something that it does not say. I show you verses that tell us a Christian will not sin, and all you can do is say I don’t know what I am talking about. You need to make me wrong, but don’t have any scripture to confirm your accusations.

You keep implying that I am interpretation the bible with out any outside help? What out side help do you get, and what make your help right?

I will share again what outside help that is given to me. Jesus/Holy Spirit has been teaching me the Word of God for over forty years. Jesus has sat next to me and had me open the bible to verses that he explained to me.

Simple Question: Do you pray the prayer that our Lord taught us to pray? Why does it say,

Forgive us our tresspasses
As we forgive those who tresspass against us?

 

[weariedsoul]

I find in interesting that the Lord included our forgiveness of others in his instructions on praying.

Believe and you will be forgiven is what we hear. Yet Jesus said believe and repent, forgive and be forgiven, judge not and you wont be judged, condemn not and you wont be condemned.

We teach that peace comes from God but not how God gives peace, yet Paul says if we do the things he teaches and does, if we follow his example, if we endure suffering, if we think good thoughts and do good things then the God of peace shall be with us.

Jesus said whoever hears His sayings and does them is like a wise man who builds his house on a good foundation, a rock solid foundation. He says if we keep His sayings then then He and the Father will come in and make their home in us. Its those who obey God who love Him.

Jesus says to seek the kingdom, and that we wont enter it if we don't humble ourselves, that's they key through the door, James says that we should weep and mourn and humble ourselves, he says God draws near to us when we humble ourselves, God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.

Psalms says that the sacrifices of God are a broken and contrite heart. And that God is near them that have a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.

 

[KimberlyAA]

With so much emphasis on baptism in the New Testament, people sometimes wonder what they can expect to follow baptism. If our sins are "washed away" in baptism (Acts 22:16), what if we sin again after baptism? Will we need to be baptized every time we sin? This question seems silly to some people; but to others it is a very real concern.


For instance, we must never forget that our salvation ultimately depends upon God’s Grace and not our good deeds. Paul said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The "Grace" of God provided the only sacrifice which could take away our sins. Peter reminds us that we were redeemed "with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ" (I Peter 1:19). You see, I do not depend upon my own righteousness for salvation; but upon the righteousness of Jesus -- the only one who never sinned. Paul taught that God "...made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (II Cor 5:21).


Somehow, in the mind of God, the righteousness of Jesus serves as sort of a spiritual umbrella of righteousness over my life. Paul explained that "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). If I am "in Christ," then my sins are hidden in the righteousness of Jesus. The words of a sacred song express this thought well:

I’ve been covered over by the robe of righteousness that Jesus gives to me;
I’ve been covered over by the precious blood of Jesus and He lives in me.
What a joy it is to know my Heavenly Father loves me so He gave to me my Jesus
Now when He looks at me He sees not what I used to be, but He sees Jesus. ​

Do you understand this point? This is the precious privilege of being "in Christ." My sins are "covered over" by the righteousness of Jesus and are not seen by God when I am "in Christ." But it is baptism which puts me "into Christ" and allows me this privilege (Galatians 3:27). Because of Christ and His redemptive work, mankind has the opportunity to grow and mature, even while making mistakes. Our sinful nature is not conquered in a day. Paul said, "There is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10); and he bemoaned his own sinful nature in Romans 7:15-19. Even after baptism, we shall continue to sin on a daily basis. But one who is "in Christ" has the blessing of being forgiven every day and is continually cleansed by the blood of Christ.


Of course, we understand that after baptism we should strive to be pure in thought and deed; but if we sin, the apostle John reminds us that "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (I John 2:1). John also taught that "if we Confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9). There is an example in Acts 8 which helps us to see how this process works. Shortly after being baptized, a man named Simon again fell into sin. In Acts 8:22, Peter explained to Simon what should be done in the event of sin after baptism. He did not say to be baptized again, but said, "Therefore Repent of this wickedness of yours, and Pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you." Do you see the procedure? If we Confess our weaknesses, Pray for forgiveness, and Repent of our wrongs, Jesus will plead our case before the Father and continue to cover our sins with His blood (I John 1:7).


However, the scriptures also teach that Willful, Continual sin will not be forgiven. In fact the Hebrew writer said, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).


God will not allow us to use the cloak of Christ as an excuse to continue in willful and unrepentant sin. But for those who love God and who strive to be disciples of Jesus, a confident assurance can be found "in Christ." John said that those who "believe in the name of the Son of God ... may know that you have eternal life" (I John 5:13). The Lord allows His people the freedom of choice to decide for themselves if they want to remain "in Him," but Jesus promised that "no one shall snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). Confession of sins, combined with Repentant Prayer, will keep us under the canopy of Christ’s atoning blood.

 

[weariedsoul]

And many say that anxiety and a weakness of the mind are evil, not from God. It matters little because paul teaches us to endure these things for His glory.

 

[weariedsoul]

Our inability to obey God which condemns us is weakness. Paul seems to refer to suffering as weakness in 2 Co 12:9-10, It sounds like he refers to humility as well. Paul says he takes pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake. In Php 4 at the bottom of the page Paul says to rejoice in the lord always, and that he has learned to be content in all situations, to be full and hungry, both to abound and suffer need. In this scripture Paul attaches 2 promises of obtaining Gods peace by following Pauls example.


2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

in·fir·mi·ty
Physical or mental weakness: "the infirmities of old age".
More info »Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

reproaches
3rd person singular present, plural of re·proach
Verb:
Address (someone) in such a way as to express disapproval or disappointment.
Noun:
The expression of disapproval or disappointment.
More info »Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

distresses
3rd person singular present of dis·tress (Verb)
Verb:
Cause (someone) anxiety, sorrow, or pain.
Give (furniture, leather, or clothing) simulated marks of age and wear.
More info »



Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
hp 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
Php 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[steve_bakr]

Show me were in the Word of God that the only unforgivable sin is refusing to repent?

From Mark, the oldest Gospel--

28) "I tell you the truth, ALL the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them."

This says that ALL sins can be forgiven.

29) "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, because they have committed an eternal sin."

But one work of the Holy Spirit is to convict men unto repentance. Therefore, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to refuse to repent (unto death).

 

[weariedsoul]

And i was not suggesting we should glory in sin, that is not what paul teaches, sin is not the weakness we glory in. Its the Lord we glory in, and suffering that we glory in for His glory, we share in His glory through suffering and enduring as a soldier endures suffering in battle.. Sin should shame us.

We share in His Glory and His sufferings.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
Jesus has sat next to me and had me open the bible to verses that he explained to me.

You had a private tutor from Mexico named Jesus?

 

[steve_bakr]

You have nothing to confirm you belief that all the verses I quoted are leading to apostasy. What you do have is man’s understanding of scripture that is wrong. The unspiritual man can’t understand how one can live without sinning, so needs to make scripture say something that it does not say. I show you verses that tell us a Christian will not sin, and all you can do is say I don’t know what I am talking about. You need to make me wrong, but don’t have any scripture to confirm your accusations.

You keep implying that I am interpretation the bible with out any outside help? What out side help do you get, and what make your help right?

I will share again what outside help that is given to me. Jesus/Holy Spirit has been teaching me the Word of God for over forty years. Jesus has sat next to me and had me open the bible to verses that he explained to me.

I don't claim to be right on everything--nobody is. I am probably your age, so I've been reading the Bible about as long as you have. But I have often learned from pastors, commentaries, and works of theology. I've also read some history to understand the New Testament world. My wife has also helped me.

There are some Christian mystics who have had visions and claimed to have learned from Jesus. One of them is Julian of Norwich. But she spoke of the love and compassion of a forgiving Jesus. Also, she did not contradict the teachings of the Church. Perhaps you might enjoy her book--"Revelations of Divine Love." You might also enjoy, "Mystics of the Christian Tradition," by Steven Fanning.

I most definitely reiterate that you need to know what Christians of great learning have said about the Bible. Since you don't want to be Catholic, try the Protestant Matthew Henry's Commentary.

BTW, Personal revelations must not contradict orthodox Christianity.

 

[weariedsoul]

What is a mystic Christian? A person who believes that the spirit teaches us and who also believes that God can give the saints visions? That means i am i mystic who was taught by no denomination or man. No wonder i don't fit it any where.

The first church were mystics as well. I belong to the first church. Wow.

 

[weariedsoul]

I have had teachers inspired by the spirit from different denoms here on CF. Put them all together without the things that dissagree and that's what i belive

 

[Giver]

I don't claim to be right on everything--nobody is. I am probably your age, so I've been reading the Bible about as long as you have. But I have often learned from pastors, commentaries, and works of theology. I've also read some history to understand the New Testament world. My wife has also helped me.

There are some Christian mystics who have had visions and claimed to have learned from Jesus. One of them is Julian of Norwich. But she spoke of the love and compassion of a forgiving Jesus. Also, she did not contradict the teachings of the Church. Perhaps you might enjoy her book--"Revelations of Divine Love." You might also enjoy, "Mystics of the Christian Tradition," by Steven Fanning.

I most definitely reiterate that you need to know what Christians of great learning have said about the Bible. Since you don't want to be Catholic, try the Protestant Matthew Henry's Commentary.

When I accepted Jesus’ call to his ministry, I asked him what seminary to attend. Jesus told me: “NO! Don’t read about me I will teach you about me.” Not long after that my wife wanted to pick up a book from the Christian bookstore, and while waiting for her in the store, I noticed a book on spirituality and reached up to look at it, and as I did I started to throw up. I then remembered what Jesus told me and stopped reaching for the book, and never attempted to read anything about Jesus again.

People have a hard time accepting that God personally teaches us about him. I am sure Satan has much to do with such thinking.

Scripture tells us that the only way one can come to know God is to have God teach him or her. Man does not want to accept God’s teachings, so maybe that is why people let man teach him or her about God.

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and he would call his own out by name.

People don’t believe Jesus talks to them, so he must not have called them out by name, is that because they are not one of his own, or are people just not listening?

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

(John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

By the way I am not what is it people are saying, a Mystic? I am a man who Jesus called into his ministry. Jesus gave me a job to do, and I am doing that job. Jesus has given me many of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and that does not make me a mystic.

I am a spiritual person, meaning that Jesus has made a home of me, and I no longer sin.

Jesus has called me by name many times, and he has told me he is God, and the Christian bible is the written Word of God. Jesus has told me many things over the years, and it is my job to share some of what he has taught me and told me.