Sinning

[Neogaia777]

But what determines spiritual death?
Is it just one sin or lots of sin?
I am not sure that a believer can truly fear the Lord if it only took lots of sin to separate a believer from God. I see in Scripture single acts of sin causing a separation between God and man. Adam caused a separation between God and man by his one sin. Ananais and Sapphira both lied to the Holy Spirit and they died and went to hell. For a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about their deaths. Peter told Simon to repent of his wickedness of trying to pay for the Spirit. Peter told Simon that he should pray to God so that He may forgive him for such an evil thing. Jesus says a person is in danger of hell fire if they look upon a woman in lust. Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. John says if we hate our brother, there is no eternal life abiding in us. It only takes one moment of hate towards a brother in order to hate one's brother. I believe all this is why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Scripture says, we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Scripture says, Perfect love casts out fear. Yet, Scripture also says that our love is perfected by keeping His Word.


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Yet saints were commanded to pray for them, if a saint prays for them, do they not go into hellfire...?

 

[Anguspure]

But what determines spiritual death?
Is it just one sin or lots of sin?
I am not sure that a believer can truly fear the Lord if it only took lots of sin to separate a believer from God. I see in Scripture single acts of sin causing a separation between God and man. Adam caused a separation between God and man by his one sin. Ananais and Sapphira both lied to the Holy Spirit and they died and went to hell. For a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about their deaths. Peter told Simon to repent of his wickedness of trying to pay for the Spirit. Peter told Simon that he should pray to God so that He may forgive him for such an evil thing. Jesus says a person is in danger of hell fire if they look upon a woman in lust. Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. John says if we hate our brother, there is no eternal life abiding in us. It only takes one moment of hate towards a brother in order to hate one's brother. I believe all this is why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Scripture says, we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Scripture says, Perfect love casts out fear. Yet, Scripture also says that our love is perfected by keeping His Word.


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Spiritual death is what happens when one is not in righteous relationship with the source of all life that is Our Lord and God. If we loose access to the well spring then where else can we obtain the water of life?
As partakers in Christ our righteousness comes from Him, and it is He who holds us and redeems us.
So at what point do we jump out of His hands and so back into death? When we willfully make the choice to do so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Spiritual death is what happens when one is not in righteous relationship with the source of all life that is Our Lord and God. If we loose access to the well spring then where else can we obtain the water of life?
As partakers in Christ our righteousness comes from Him, and it is He who holds us and redeems us.
So at what point do we jump out of His hands and so back into death? When we willfully make the choice to do so.

Yes, and that can be just one sin that separate a believer from God (if they so choose to sin). While I know God's grace and mercy can be there for us believers (in most cases); I would never think (for myself personally) or teach others to think that sin is no big deal and that we can sin and still be saved on any level. For there are some today who think that a believer is saved if they die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) as long as that person generally lived a holy life. So when I speak of God's grace or resting in His mercy, I always balance that with how we need to walk in the Lord's good ways and put sin out of our lives. For Sanctification (Holy living - which is by God working in the believer) is the natural necessary next step or stage in the salvation process.


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[Neogaia777]

Spiritual death is what happens when one is not in righteous relationship with the source of all life that is Our Lord and God. If we loose access to the well spring then where else can we obtain the water of life?
As partakers in Christ our righteousness comes from Him, and it is He who holds us and redeems us.
So at what point do we jump out of His hands and so back into death? When we willfully make the choice to do so.

So at what point do we jump out of His hands and so back into death?

Good question...?

Well, Jesus prayed that peter's faith failed him not, though being under a sifting of the devil, or demonic attack of sorts, only allowed to go so far with him, and if, (and to God, when) he won a/the battle, due to not letting his faith fail through it (by the power of God, cause Jesus prayed for him), but not giving up on faith, got him through into freedom from the enemy, no double jeopardy, he does not have infinite ammo and is only allowed to go "so far" or get "so close" temporarily, for his (the Devil's) challenge to take place, God does not test you, he allows you to be tested, there is a difference... Anyhow, Peter's faith, covenant of faith (and love)

When we completely lose our faith in God, we jump out of his arms

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet saints were commanded to pray for them, if a saint prays for them, do they not go into hellfire...?

Not sure what you are saying here. Please elaborate.


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[Bible Highlighter]

So at what point do we jump out of His hands and so back into death?

Good question...?

Well, Jesus prayed that peter's faith failed him not, though being under a sifting of the devil, or demonic attack of sorts, only allowed to go so far with him, and if, (and to God, when) he won a/the battle, due to not letting his faith fail through it (by the power of God, cause Jesus prayed for him), but not giving up on faith, got him through into freedom from the enemy, no double jeopardy, he does not have infinite ammo and is only allowed to go "so far" or get "so close" temporarily, for his (the Devil's) challenge to take place, God does not test you, he allows you to be tested, there is a difference... Anyhow, Peter's faith, covenant of faith (and love)

When we completely lose our faith in God, we jump out of his arms

God Bless!

Do you believe that one sin can separate a believer from God in certain cases?


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[Anguspure]

Yes, and that can be just one sin that separate a believer from God (if they so choose to sin). While I know God's grace and mercy can be there for us believers (in most cases); I would never think (for myself personally) or teach others to think that sin is no big deal and that we can sin and still be saved on any level. For there are some today who think that a believer is saved if they die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) as long as that person generally lived a holy life. So when I speak of God's grace or resting in His mercy, I always balance that with how we need to walk in the Lord's good ways and put sin out of our lives. For Sanctification (Holy living - which is by God working in the believer) is the natural necessary next step or stage in the salvation process.


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Yeah we must never forget that it's Grace and Mercy, not Licence and Entitlement.
That said I am determined not to acredit wrong against my neighbour and will leave the judgement to my Lord.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, and that can be just one sin that separate a believer from God (if they so choose to sin).

What Shall separate us (from the love of) God, shall height nor depth nor principality or powers, ect, ect...

I would like to add sin to that list...

While I know God's grace and mercy can be there for us believers (in most cases); I would never think (for myself personally) or teach others to think that sin is no big deal and that we can sin and still be saved on any level.

Me either... (Teaching others that you can teach or preach or say and treat "sin that sin is "no big deal"...) Whether they can still be saved or not, I don't think they could ever be sure about it (being saved) when still deep in sin, God knows and this is his territory not ours....

"For there are some today who think that a believer is saved if they die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) * as long as that person generally lived a holy life.*

Up to the * point you had me, till you said generally lived a holy life..."

Define holy life...? In whose judgment...?

And I don't know if it is really contingent on us really doing much of anything either, other than following a few simple guiding principles, like: Love, and faith, hope, trust, peace, patience, joy, kindness... whatever is noble, honorable, just, lovely...

Other than simple stuff like that I don't know if depends on anything we do...

So when I speak of God's grace or resting in His mercy, I always balance that with how we need to walk in the Lord's good ways and put sin out of our lives.

We should try or seek to find a way to get victory over sin in our lives, yes, and make as much forward progress as possible while were here...

For Sanctification (Holy living - which is by God working in the believer) is the natural necessary next step or stage in the salvation process.

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Yes, the word "process" being key, you don't start out sinless... That's a deception BTW... You may trade one kind of sin for another and not even know it...

How ya doin Jason?

Peace,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you believe that one sin can separate a believer from God in certain cases?


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Cases only God can know maybe...?

 

[Neogaia777]

Not sure what you are saying here. Please elaborate.


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Do saints prayers about heathens, for God to save them (heathens), save them...?

Wait that's not elaborating, that's simplifying, sorry...

 

[Yarddog]

Im just curious.

What are the ten commandments for, when everybody who believes in jesus, is saved anyway ?

Do you really believe? Do you follow his commands? Jesus told us, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yeah we must never forget that it's Grace and Mercy, not Licence and Entitlement.

But people today do turn God's grace into a license for immorality. That's the problem.

That said I am determined not to acredit wrong against my neighbour and will leave the judgement to my Lord.

I do not see where it is wrong to point out evil or sin. Imagine if the President pardoned every criminal in the US. This would also include every future crime that they would commit, as well. Can you imagine the evil and sin that would run rampant within a world like that? This is what it sounds like when people tell me that they are saved and pardoned from all their sins (including their future sins) by having a mere belief on Jesus. But James says, even the demons believe and tremble. So it would be a moral issue or problem to not point out evil or sin by others. If they repent, then that is different.

It is also not Biblical to think that we cannot correct others by the Word of God in regards to sin, as well. Paul told the Corinthians to kick out that man who was committing sexual immorality within the church. He said not to have company with fornicators (See 1 Corinthians 5). Peter said to Simon to repent of his wickedness of trying pay for the gifts of the Spirit (Acts 8:22). Peter confronts Ananais and Sapphira over their sins (See Acts 5). Paul rebukes Peter over his sin (See Acts 2:11-21). 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says all Scripture is profitable for correction and training in righteousness. John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). John also says all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).


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[Anguspure]

But people today do turn God's grace into a license for immorality. That's the problem.

These days? As in for the last 2000 years or so?

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6)

I do not see where it is wrong to point out evil or sin. Imagine if the President pardoned every criminal in the US. This would also include every future crime that they would commit, as well. Can you imagine the evil and sin that would run rampant within a world like that? This is what it sounds like when people tell me that they are saved and pardoned from all their sins (including their future sins) by having a mere belief on Jesus. But James says, even the demons believe and tremble. So it would be a moral issue or problem to not point out evil or sin by others. If they repent, then that is different.

Yes, we are able to judge and wise judgement is expected of us. But we must always be careful to remove the log from our own eyes before we start standing on any high ground. We are all sinners saved by grace and the key to communicating this is to be able to identify with the other.

For myself? I have had some pretty big logs, and still struggle with a few so far be it from me to be able to bring another under conviction or condemnation.

It is also not Biblical to think that we cannot correct others by the Word of God in regards to sin, as well. Paul told the Corinthians to kick out that man who was committing sexual immorality within the church. He said not to have company with fornicators (See 1 Corinthians 5). Peter said to Simon to repent of his wickedness of trying pay for the gifts of the Spirit (Acts 8:22). Peter confronts Ananais and Sapphira over their sins (See Acts 5). Paul rebukes Peter over his sin (See Acts 2:11-21). 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says all Scripture is profitable for correction and training in righteousness. John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). John also says all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).


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As I said above, I agree that we are called to correct our brothers but this in all humility and gentleness and aiming to spur one another on to greater works, only separating ourselves in extremis.

For example it took the Corinthian a strongly worded letter from an Apostle before they separated themselves from a brother who was committing open adultery with his step mother, and this in order to bring him to repentance.

I have observed a number of people swiftly condemned most severely on far lesser grounds and don't believe that this reflects the will of God.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Whats the point in not sinning if Jesus forgives everything ?

Anyone who thinks that they can sin and get away with it because Jesus covered them with his blood are probably deceived and on the way down to the hot place.

Those that live as if they are not born again probably are not born again.

M-Bob

 

[Bible Highlighter]

These days? As in for the last 2000 years or so?

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6)

My test question for you.
If you answered it before, then my apologies (for having missed it)
But I would like a clarification on this please.
Okay, here is the question:

Do you believe that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved as long as they generally lived a holy life? Yes, or no?

Yes, we are able to judge and wise judgement is expected of us. But we must always be careful to remove the log from our own eyes before we start standing on any high ground. We are all sinners saved by grace and the key to communicating this is to be able to identify with the other.

Sinners cannot also be saints. That is an oxymoron. A contradiction.
Jesus came to heal the sick to make them better and not so that they would remain sick.
What do you mean by sinners? How does one determine what level or type of sins that a believer can get away with that determines if they are a true believer or not? Can they be a practicing axe murderer? What if they just axe murder people every 10 or 20 years occasionally?

1 John 2:4 says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

So how many commands do you have to break so as not to be able say you are not keeping His commandments? It only takes just one.

For myself? I have had some pretty big logs, and still struggle with a few so far be it from me to be able to bring another under conviction or condemnation.

Well, I am not interested in talking about your personal life.
Our personal experiences is not always the same thing as what God's Word says.
So let's stick to just Scripture please.
According to God's Word, Christians are to mature in their faith (beyond the milk of the Word) and overcome serious sins in this life.
How so? Well, Galatians 5:16 says if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
We are told in Romans 13:14 to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
1 Peter 4:1-2 says that we can suffer in the flesh so as to cease from sin and that we are to live not the rest of our lives here on this Earth to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.
2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Philippians 2:12 says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

As I said above, I agree that we are called to correct our brothers but this in all humility and gentleness and aiming to spur one another on to greater works, only separating ourselves in extremis.

For example it took the Corinthian a strongly worded letter from an Apostle before they separated themselves from a brother who was committing open adultery with his step mother, and this in order to bring him to repentance.

No. Paul rebuked them. He told them that they should not keep company with a brother who is a fornicator. Paul says elsewhere, "do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather, reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11). Paul says that the Corinthians were puffed up for having this person among them (See 1 Corinthians 5:2).

I have observed a number of people swiftly condemned most severely on far lesser grounds and don't believe that this reflects the will of God.

Paul says,
"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11).

Why?

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." (1 Philippians 2:15).


...

 

[Anguspure]

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Notwithstanding, clearly Paul had a problem with Grace becoming licence in the live of the believers in both Rome and Galatia, this is nothing new.

My test question for you.
If you answered it before, then my apologies (for having missed it)
But I would like a clarification on this please.
Okay, here is the question:

Do you believe that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved as long as they generally lived a holy life? Yes, or no?

I think there is something wrong with the question, so I can't really give a definitive answer.

Sinners cannot also be saints. That is an oxymoron. A contradiction.
Jesus came to heal the sick to make them better and not so that they would remain sick.
What do you mean by sinners? How does one determine what level or type of sins that a believer can get away with that determines if they are a true believer or not? Can they be a practicing axe murderer? What if they just axe murder people every 10 or 20 years occasionally?

1 John 2:4 says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

So how many commands do you have to break so as not to be able say you are not keeping His commandments? It only takes just one.

This is what grace is for. Its a matter of the heart. A person who, in the opinion of God (who we know is far more merciful and knowing than any man), has deliberately discarded faith in Him faces death. But He extends His grace to us all and is merciful in spite of ourselves. Remember that David was a murderous adulterer who went on to have a child with Bathsheba, hardly repentant, and yet was called a man after Gods heart.

Well, I am not interested in talking about your personal life.
Our personal experiences is not always the same thing as what God's Word says.
So let's stick to just Scripture please.
According to God's Word, Christians are to mature in their faith (beyond the milk of the Word) and overcome serious sins in this life.
How so? Well, Galatians 5:16 says if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
We are told in Romans 13:14 to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
1 Peter 4:1-2 says that we can suffer in the flesh so as to cease from sin and that we are to live not the rest of our lives here on this Earth to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.
2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Philippians 2:12 says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

Personal anecdotes supply relevant and discussion points, linked to reality, if we are candid and honest enough to confess to one another.

No. Paul rebuked them. He told them that they should not keep company with a brother who is a fornicator. Paul says elsewhere, "do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather, reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11). Paul says that the Corinthians were puffed up for having this person among them (See 1 Corinthians 5:2).

Yes we separate ourselves but look at the situation compared to the petty issues that "sinners" are kicked out of all fellowship for in the modern era. I have a friend who was told to never come back for getting angry with somebody who had lied to him.

1 Corinthians was written 5 years after the planting of the church in Corinth. It is actually the 2nd letter but we don't have the first one. 2nd Corinthians is actually the 4th letter and describes the admission of a repentant sinner back in to the church.

Paul says,
"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11).

5 years down the track he gave this guidance because things were getting out of hand in a licentious culture.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." (1 Philippians 2:15).

Amen. Yet we who call ourselves Christian struggle mightily to shine as lights in the world that we have been given, very often because we lack the mercy and grace of our Lord Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Notwithstanding, clearly Paul had a problem with Grace becoming licence in the live of the believers in both Rome and Galatia, this is nothing new.

I think there is something wrong with the question, so I can't really give a definitive answer.

This is what grace is for. Its a matter of the heart. A person who, in the opinion of God (who we know is far more merciful and knowing than any man), has deliberately discarded faith in Him faces death. But He extends His grace to us all and is merciful in spite of ourselves. Remember that David was a murderous adulterer who went on to have a child with Bathsheba, hardly repentant, and yet was called a man after Gods heart.

Personal anecdotes supply relevant and discussion points, linked to reality, if we are candid and honest enough to confess to one another.

Yes we separate ourselves but look at the situation compared to the petty issues that "sinners" are kicked out of all fellowship for in the modern era. I have a friend who was told to never come back for getting angry with somebody who had lied to him.

1 Corinthians was written 5 years after the planting of the church in Corinth. It is actually the 2nd letter but we don't have the first one. 2nd Corinthians is actually the 4th letter and describes the admission of a repentant sinner back in to the church.

5 years down the track he gave this guidance because things were getting out of hand in a licentious culture.

Amen. Yet we who call ourselves Christian struggle mightily to shine as lights in the world that we have been given, very often because we lack the mercy and grace of our Lord Jesus.

I know that most Eternal Securists would say “If someone lived a life of open sin like that, they're not really saved.” They believe that they are being completely consistent with what they call "the true doctrine of Eternal Security." Yet they appeal to David in his sin of murder and adultery as being an example of Eternal Security, since David was declared “a man after God’s own heart.” My question is, how could they ever question the Eternal Security of another like they do? Most of these people they judge as “never saved” do not commit anywhere near the gravity of sin and depravity that we see in David. In fact, it is illogical to say that if someone sins a certain amount that they give evidence that they were never saved, for this implies that there must be limits to this Eternal Security! If Eternal Security cannot save the most willfully vile homosexual, or satanic worshiping, mass murdering fiend of all time, then there really is no Eternal Security. Eternal Security by design must excuse the vilest sinner that even now rejects and curses Jesus Christ, or it is limited, ineffectual, and thereby no Eternal Security at all! The issue at hand is that if there are limits to sin in the mind of the Eternal Securist concerning whether someone is really saved, then exactly where is the line when someone becomes “unsaved”… or conveniently and retroactively declared to be “never saved in the first place?” While denying that they draw a line, they stand in judgment of other people’s salvation by the line they draw in their own heads. The irony of the Eternal Security advocate is that this line of unacceptability never includes them! If they become an axe murdering rapist, they will claim that they are yet “Eternally Secure,” but set that line of “never really saved” on those they believe are worse than them… like those horrible Legalistic Believers who say that we must shun sin, and don’t believe in Eternal Security! “Oh those lost Legalists! Always harping that sin still separates! Claiming that God says that the wages of sin is still death! The audacity of refusing to believe God’s Eternal Security! Can you believe that they say that David was lost in his sin and was only “a man after God’s own heart” in his repentance?… How dare they!”

Quoted Source:
Salvation
(Note 1: I changed two words within the portion of the article I quoted because of it's possible offensiveness).
(Note 2: By no means am I referring to you by this article quote personally; I am speaking in general about the belief of Eternal Security).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Notwithstanding, clearly Paul had a problem with Grace becoming licence in the live of the believers in both Rome and Galatia, this is nothing new.

Paul said to the Corinthians, prove that Jesus Christ be in you, unless you be reprobate
(2 Corinthians 13:5).

Paul said that a person can deny the Lord by a lack of works (TItus 1:16).

Paul said, work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Paul said if any man speak contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

The author of Hebrews says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

I think there is something wrong with the question, so I can't really give a definitive answer.

What's wrong with the question? Please explain.

This is what grace is for. Its a matter of the heart. A person who, in the opinion of God (who we know is far more merciful and knowing than any man), has deliberately discarded faith in Him faces death. But He extends His grace to us all and is merciful in spite of ourselves. Remember that David was a murderous adulterer who went on to have a child with Bathsheba, hardly repentant, and yet was called a man after Gods heart.

No. Nowhere does the Bible say that David was after God's own heart during the time he was murderous and an adulterer. If that is the case, then you are telling me that you can mow down a crowd of people and be saved in that state of doing so. This would be evil and wrong (of course). This would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us about.

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4 NIV).​

For a person can deny the Lord by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

I mean, do you not know the good guys from the bad guys when you watch the news, or watch a movie, or go out into the world? Is not God good? Why would God violate "basic morality" in effort to save people? It does not make God out to be a holy, righteous, and just God if He allowed certain people to get away with sin and evil by having a mere belief on His Son as the Savior (While others simply perish). Does a belief alone really make a person better? I mean, an axe murdering rapist may believe he shouldn't kill people and rape others but it really does not matter what their belief is if they are doing evil. Their actions speaking louder than their beliefs. They have let sin determine what is in their heart and how they feel about God and man. They love their sin more than they do God.

In other words, Jesus says love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Yet, your telling me that a believer can murder and commit adultery like a David and be a man after God's own heart? That is not only non-sensical, but it is down right sad and deplorable. Do you not understand "basic morality"? Do you not get the idea of how morality is what keeps our society together? Is not God the highest standard of morality and goodness out there? Why would He agree with such evil in allowing His people to do evil and yet reward them with His Kingdom (despite such evil)? It makes no sense. God calls us to repentance and to walk uprightly in His light and He does not call us to remain in darkness.

Personal anecdotes supply relevant and discussion points, linked to reality, if we are candid and honest enough to confess to one another.

If we were talking face to face, then we could talk personally with each other. But here on the forums it is not a good idea to make it personal because you can get points and get banned for appearing to attack somebody. Granted, even face to face, I would strive to talk in love with you and make it more about the belief and not you. It is the belief that is wrong according to the Bible here; And your life experience does not determine the truth of what God's Word actually says. The belief of Eternal Security started in the beginning long before any of us were born. Satan said to Eve, "Yea, ye shall surely not die." (Genesis 3:4). A lie that is still being bought hook, line, and sinker today.

John says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

John says,
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

John says,
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

John says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Yes we separate ourselves but look at the situation compared to the petty issues that "sinners" are kicked out of all fellowship for in the modern era. I have a friend who was told to never come back for getting angry with somebody who had lied to him.

Getting angry with sin is not wrong. Jesus got angry at the moneychangers in regards to their sin. So it is this church you speak of that is wrong and it has nothing to do with how we believers should not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

Besides, the believer who fornicated in the Corinthian church is alluded to having been later restored through repentance (2 Corinthians 2:7).

I am not saying a believer is forever banished.
They would have to speak blasphemy (bad words) against the Holy Spirit in order to be forever banished.

1 Corinthians was written 5 years after the planting of the church in Corinth. It is actually the 2nd letter but we don't have the first one. 2nd Corinthians is actually the 4th letter and describes the admission of a repentant sinner back in to the church.

Your not telling me anything new.
This does not change what I have said.
If a believer sins openly in the church, they were to be kicked out unless they repented.
Unless of course you think that the church is a bunch of heathen living saints or something (in which case 1 Corinthians 5 would be non-sense or rubbish as a message to us).

5 years down the track he gave this guidance because things were getting out of hand in a licentious culture.

And it is wrong for any believer to turn God's grace into a license for immorality.
It doesn't work like that.
God cannot agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved.
God is holy and righteous and good and He cannot agree with a person's sin.

Amen. Yet we who call ourselves Christian struggle mightily to shine as lights in the world that we have been given, very often because we lack the mercy and grace of our Lord Jesus.

By what you said so far, I don't think you really agree with that verse.
A believer cannot be saved in their sin and also be a light to a wicked world if they are just as equally wicked as they are.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do saints prayers about heathens, for God to save them (heathens), save them...?

Wait that's not elaborating, that's simplifying, sorry...

I was not going to answer you.
Why? Well, I have given you verses before and you simply ignored them.
If you will answer my questions below with Scripture, then I will consider in answering back your previous posts. If not, then it is not worth my time to have any discourse with you anymore (for you will see what you want to see despite what the Bible says in regards to sin and righteousness).

Okay. Here are my questions.

How do you define morality?
Do you think God agrees with morality?
Wouldn't God have to agree with your plan of salvation that you can sin and still be saved?
Wouldn't that mean God would have to agree with sin if such were the case?
If not, then please explain according to the Bible.

I mean, stop and think for a moment, why do you think God created laws?
Do you think God created laws because He wants us to be good and that God hates sin?
Do not laws help us to have peace, order, and harmony?
Imagine a world without moral laws.
Why do you think God destroyed the world with a global flood?
Did not God destroy the world with a flood because of their wickedness?


....

 

[Anguspure]

What's wrong with the question? Please explain.

I've had a think about this and can now see where I think the question is wrong.

You ask whether "a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved as long as they generally lived a holy life? Yes, or no?"; and this indicates a certain way of thinking about salvation that I do not believe is correct.

Basically, you are thinking about the Gospel as if all of those who are saved by it are like sheep in a fenced paddock. As long as the sheep stay inside the fence they will be saved but if they jump over the fence they are fair game for the wolf.

Now if this is true, I gave you an answer to your question and indicated that the outcome would be according to the grace and mercy of the Shepherd who has indicated that He will leave His 99 safe sheep to find the 1 missing one and bring it back to Him.
So this is a possibility.

But I don't think that this is true. I think the right way to look at the Gospel is where Jesus is the wellspring of Life, He is the source of all things, the narrow gate. His command is not a fence around us, rather it points towards His Father who is Love itself.

In this respect the moral landscape does not have fences, rather our status, as one who is saved, is determined by our orientation and proximity of our heart to the well that gives life.

An Australian man once used this imagery with reference to Cattle in the outback where there are no fences, rather the safety of cattle is determined by their relationship to the well.

In this respect we can see that salvation is not determined by whether we break through the fence at a certain point, or not, but by the relationship to the moral perfection that is the person of Christ Jesus. If our hearts are turned towards Him and thereby are partakers in His Spirit, then we belong to Him. But if our heart is turned away (no matter how perfectly we have kept the commandments) then we do not.

So you should be able to see that if you asked the question as to what would cause a believer to loose their salvation I would have replied that this is possible if we turn away from Christ Our Lord, and that this may or may not be reflected in outward moral behaviour.

But in my view the question you ask does not reflect the gospel.