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  1. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    I have a few questions for those who believe that one cannot be sinless in this life.

    1. Romans 7 vs 7 to 23 is interpreted as being post salvation. If this is true...
    Why is Paul, who claims to live by faith and not by the law since coming to Christ still struggling with the law?

    2. 1 John 1 is often interpreted as proof that those who say they have achieved sinlessness in this life are liars, Yet in John 2 vs 1 he says he wrote it so that we may stop sinning. Does this not show that you have misinterpreted his intention in chapter 1?

    3. If you came across such a one as has not sinned since salvation, why would this bother you? Is it not a good thing?

    4. Do you not know that to become sinless is a gift of grace? It is all of Christ and not of man. Are you not aware that no one can be sinless without Christ?

    I must conclude from reading the Scriptures that the claim one will never cease from sinning while in the body is heresy and not the doctrine of Christ or his apostles.
     
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  2. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

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    Nobody is without sin.

    The only one to have ever been perfect while on this earth was Jesus.

    We are flesh. We are weak. We have Jesus to turn to when we sin. Even the tiniest thing can be sin. A bad thought, envy, jealousy, coveting things, anger etc etc etc....
     
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  3. MasterYourLife

    MasterYourLife Member

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    First let's define sin: transgression of God's law.
    There are two subcategories of sinning: willful and accidental.
    If this is true, then it's possible to not sin...at least for a period of time.

    Although it's difficult, I believe it's possible. I think most people are sinless for at least 8 hours a day...when they're asleep.

    Those who quote Paul's writing: "all have sinned". They're not using it in proper context. Paul is saying, there is no one that has never sinned. However, people like to say this refers to being sinless after being born again.

    I think a lot of people opposed to sinlessness, are those who struggle with it the most.

    However, I think debating this topic is pointless. Just don't sin and you'll do well.
    As long as you don't use your belief that sinlessness is impossible, as an excuse to keep sinning.
     
  4. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    The apostle Paul was one of the greatest Christian men in history, yet he still struggled with sin and fell so short of perfection. Are you saying that you are greater than him?

    Entire sanctification will never be possible as long as we live in this corrupt flesh, it is only in death from the body and our glorification that we will ever be completely free/renewed from all sin and corruption. No amount of rigorous discipline will rid sin from your flesh.
     
  5. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    1. There is sin that we do know about. We get convicted. We repent [1 John 1:9]. It gets taken away.
    2. There is sin that we don't know about, yet. It is covered by grace until God calls it to our attention (making it a #1-type sin).
    Even if we stop all #1 sin, #2 sin continues unabated. (I expect that our avoidance of #1 sin improves, somewhat, as it is part of our dialog with the Holy Spirit.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  6. JustRachel

    JustRachel He welcomed me back! <3 Supporter

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  7. D.A. Wright

    D.A. Wright Unworthy Recipient Of Unfathomable Love Supporter

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    Yes. I'm sure that's what the OP is saying. :doh:
    I'm assuming then, that you hold that Christ possessed a human nature that is higher in virtue than ours, which would make it possible to overcome sin in a way that is foreign to us.
     
  8. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    He clearly said that it is heresy to believe that you cannot be sinless in this life, assuming that any man is actually able to attain it. If that is the case, they must be better than the apostles in their own estimation. If that is his pursuit, he is claiming to have the advantage in reaching above the apostle Paul himself who never came close to sinless perfection in the slightest bit.

    Jesus didn't possess a fallen nature, he was on the same playing field as Adam before the fall. He wasn't enslaved to sinful passions as we were, he could only be tempted to fall into it. He didn't need to overcome something that didn't possess him, he overcame what tried to ensnare him.

    For him to be divine, he could suffer temptation in the flesh as us, but he could not sin on account of being God. He was able to experience the same level that we face in temptation, but he could not falter in it.

    We can learn from him how to overcome sin, but he doesn't present an example of how to be sinless and perfect.
     
  9. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Paul's description of the struggle in Rom. 7 is the description of a saved person. The one who does not believe has no struggle, since they live according to their flesh (feelings). The only restraint for them is what the law does as a consequence of the crimes they wish to commit. (1 Tim. 1:9-10)

    But if Paul was sinless, he would have no more struggle, and he would not have written to Christians that there is an inner warfare - Gal. 5:16-21. Note that it is only those who have the indwelling Spirit (saved people) in which "the Spirit desires against the flesh..."

    The misunderstanding that people have is that they think victorious Christian living is absolute, in which they imagine sinless living. This is not reality. The fact is, we are in transition in this life, and in constant need of further sanctification. Saintly living is a journey in direction toward godliness, not a sinless place in which we park ourselves.

    When Paul told the Corinthians to stop sinning, he was talking about their attitude. "Stop sinning!" doesn't mean they become sinless. It means "begin to learn of Christ and obey Him." I get this from the context of the Corinthian epistle. It's the same with John. He includes himself in saying we aren't sinless, and yet he says "the one born of God doesn't sin." He's not talking about a sinless state, since that would be a self-contradiction. Rather, he is talking about moving in the right life direction. In the 1st century, they called the Christian life "The Way."

    Show me a person who thinks himself sinless, and I'll show you one who has yet to be tested. In our individual past when we were born again, we were justified by faith, and therefore we "have been saved." In the future at the resurrection, we "will be saved" (physically). But in the present, we are "being saved" by the sanctifying work of the Spirit.
    TD:)
     
  10. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    And Mary! Don't forget Mary.

    [​IMG]

    True. A Saint is just a sinner who tries again.
     
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  11. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    Sigh... Only one person even referred to my questions concerning the context surrounding the verses claimed to prove you cannot attain sinlessness in this life, which means you all missed the point entirely and convince me of nothing. Please address the questions.

    Every single one has accused me without cause. I make no claim, Jesus is my judge and Savior.

    Please show me where Paul confesses that he still sinned.

    Since sinlessness is a gift of grace and is only possible by Christ it cannot be used as a measure of perfection or superiority. Why must sanctification take a lifetime? Has Christ no power?
     
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  12. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    Tdidymus said,

    I see no need for an inner warfare except you do not walk in the Spirit, an encouragement Paul clearly gave in Romans 8. Being in the body is not the same as being in the flesh. You are able to be in the body and ignore the lusts of the flesh, as long as you walk in the Spirit. Paul is only encouraging the disciples to walk as the new creatures they have become in Christ, not determining that we will always struggle with the flesh.

    If you still struggle with fleshly lusts you have not learned to abide in Christ.
     
  13. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    Lost4words said,

    We are not flesh, we are in the body. Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

    Which part of the new birth do you not understand? Being born of the Spirit you do not need to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Romans 8 again.
     
  14. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

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    I see, so you are sin free then? You never ever sin?
     
  15. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    Joniatis said,

    There is no competition between the apostle Paul and I, we are both disciples of Jesus Christ and trust fully in him.

    It appears, from my questions that Paul taught me. Can a disciple be greater than his master? Jesus said, "No."
     
  16. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    If I am free from sin it is by Jesus Christ. I made no such claim. All have sinned, as the Scripture declares, but not all continue in sin or need to.
     
  17. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

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    So, you never ever sin?
     
  18. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Jesus commanded the apostles to abide in Him, and John wrote that after he was filled with the Spirit. He wrote "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves..." after he was filled with the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit doesn't mean we have no struggle with temptations. Faith in the power of God working in us is a growing matter.

    Also, if your definition of "struggle" means "still falling," then we're not on the same page. My definition of "struggle" means something like this:
    1. Get confronted with a tough situation, such as a loved one betrays the relationship, and for whatever reason begins to hate you to your face, because the devil has gotten into their mind.
    2. Try to persuade them to get back into friendly relations to no avail because their mind is now fixed on doing evil things to you.
    3. Remember that Christ commanded to love our enemies and do good to them.
    4. Recognize our weakness, that we just can't deal with it on our own, and having to resist the temptation to do evil back to them.
    5. Spend time in prayer, and with God, trying to get healing from the horrendous psychological pain.
    6. Trust that God not only heals, but also makes us more Christlike through the very situation.
    7. Keep praying and trusting God for however long it takes, even years if necessary.
    8. Recognize our humanity, such that we fell short of God's glory through the whole matter, even if we did everything right.

    Once you get 40 years of Christian living under your belt, perhaps you'll change your mind, much like John Wesley who taught the Christian Perfection idea, but at the end of his life he admitted he never attained to it.

    If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been sinless?
    TD:)
     
  19. D.A. Wright

    D.A. Wright Unworthy Recipient Of Unfathomable Love Supporter

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    Asked and answered.
     
  20. D.A. Wright

    D.A. Wright Unworthy Recipient Of Unfathomable Love Supporter

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    I don't understand.
     
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