"Sinless Perfection" before God.

[Carl Emerson]

That Jesus believers can be entirely sanctified, before the article of death

But not entirely perfected ?

 

[Psalm 27]

W

But not entirely perfected ?

Without holiness, no-one will see The Lord.

Go sell all you have...and you will be perfect.

Enter into the narrow gate...few there be that find it...

Therefore, you shall perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Yes perfect, entirely.
Imo

 

[Carl Emerson]

W

Without holiness, no-one will see The Lord.

Go sell all you have...and you will be perfect.

Enter into the narrow gate...few there be that find it...

Therefore, you shall perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Yes perfect, entirely.
Imo

So you expect to be perfect before you die ?

 

[Psalm 27]

So you expect to be perfect before you die ?

Yes, why not.

If The Lord purged people at death (as some believe) why couldn't He do it the day before, or weeks, months, years etc?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, why not.

If The Lord purged people at death (as some believe) why couldn't He do it the day before, or weeks, months, years etc?

For me, perfection comes as we are resurrected in our new body.

 

[Psalm 27]

Wesley quote from Christian perfection, when asked about a group of people who had been perfected;

"There is something very peculiar in the experience of the greater part of them. One would expect that a believer should first be filled with love, and thereby emptied of sin; whereas these were emptied of sin first, and then filled with love. Perhaps it pleased God to work in this manner, to make His work more plain and undeniable; and to distinguish it more clearly from that overflowing love which is often felt even in a justified state.

'It seems likewise most agreeable to the great promise: "From all your filthiness I will cleanse you; a new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you' (Ezek. xxxvi. 25,26).

'But I do not think of them all alike: there is a wide difference between some of them and others. I think most of them with whom I have spoken, have much faith, love, joy, and peace. Some of these, I believe, are renewed in love, and have the direct witness of it; and they manifest the fruit above described, in all their words and actions. Now, let any man call this what he will, it is what I call perfection".

 

[Carl Emerson]

My definition of 'perfection' is to be identical to Jesus in Character and Obedience.

I do no believe this can happen before resurrection time.

 

[Gary K]

My definition of 'perfection' is to be identical to Jesus in Character and Obedience.

I do no believe this can happen before resurrection time.

What is the discussion about? I see no differences in your beliefs from what you've both posted. I think you're talking past each other. Been there and done that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Mmm...

PS27 seems to suggest total perfection is possible before death and I don't agree.

 

[Gary K]

Mmm...

PS27 seems to suggest total perfection is possible before death and I don't agree.

I don't see that in what he says. I know I've gotten into debates in the past in which I was so sure of what I thought another person was saying my misperception was really hard to get past.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't see that in what he says. I know I've gotten into debates in the past in which I was so sure of what I thought another person was saying my misperception was really hard to get past.

Yes that has happened to me one time, possibly the case here, PS27 could confirm ?

 

[Psalm 27]

I believe that sinless perfection is God's gift, for born again believers, before they die.

'If thou desirest to be perfect, that is to be a real Christian' wesley

 

[Gary K]

I believe that sinless perfection is God's gift, for born again believers, before they die.

'If thou desirest to be perfect, that is to be a real Christian' wesley

Well it looks like I'm the one doing the misunderstanding.

Have you ever heard of the "holy flesh" fanaticism? Ellen White condemned it very strongly.

Selected Messages Book 2

m.egwwritings.org

 

[Gary K]

I believe that sinless perfection is God's gift, for born again believers, before they die.

'If thou desirest to be perfect, that is to be a real Christian' wesley

Read chapter 4 of Selected Messages volume 2. It's devoted entirely to this teaching.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sinless perfection from God's viewpoint begins at rebirth because He views us through Jesus Blood; but our human actions are a different story.

Apart from that, I cant see how claiming to have the perfection of Jesus as fallen man before death can be anything else but pride and arrogance.

 

[Gary K]

Sinless perfection from God's viewpoint begins at rebirth because He views us through Jesus Blood; but our human actions are a different story.

Apart from that, I cant see how claiming to have the perfection of Jesus as fallen man before death can be anything else but pride and arrogance.

According to Ellen White it is a specific last day deception designed to make Christians look ridiculous to unbelievers because of where it ends up leading people. In her day it lead to people claiming to not sin no matter what their behavior. An entire conference was taken over by this deception and devotees to it ended swapping wives as well as other immoral behaviors all the while claiming to not sin.

 

[Lost Witness]

LORD have Mercy on me a Sinner

 

[Psalm 27]

Can we deny The Divine power of The Lord?

 

[Gary K]

Can we deny The Divine power of The Lord?

No. But we can deny false doctrine as we have Ellen White's word that your belief is a tool of
Satan. That alone scares me away from your belief.

I'm pretty sure you're taking John Wesley out of context as I've never read anything about him that would cause me to believe he held such a belief. And why would you take his word over Ellen White's? Did he even claim to be a messenger for God and receive visions.

 

[Psalm 27]

No. But we can deny false doctrine as we have Ellen White's word that your belief is a tool of
Satan. That alone scares me away from your belief.

I'm pretty sure you're taking John Wesley out of context as I've never read anything about him that would cause me to believe he held such a belief. And why would you take his word over Ellen White's? Did he even claim to be a messenger for God and receive visions.

Context?

'A plain account of Christian perfection' John Wesley.