"Sinless Perfection" before God.

[Psalm 27]

had nothing to do with the concept of needing to be sinless.

Really?

 

[Soyeong]

Really?

Yes, really, there is nothing in the context of Matthew 5:48 that speaks about needing to have perfect obedience.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, really, there is nothing in the context of Matthew 5:48 that speaks about needing to have perfect obedience.

There is a lage difference between sinlessness and not sinning through the power of the Holy Spirit. The first is not scriptural. The second is. Read Galatians 5 about the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit breaks no law.

 

[reddogs]

The word he used an also mean "whole" or "complete", which would be a better translation considering the context of what he was speaking about, which had nothing to do with the concept of needing to be sinless.

No, it is clear that the meaning is without sin before God. And this is how we must be before Christ comes, or He will say 'I never knew you' if we still continue in iniquity...

 

[Soyeong]

No, it is clear that the meaning is without sin before God. And this is how we must be before Christ comes, or He will say 'I never knew you' if we still continue in iniquity...

In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus spoke about having a love where we did not just love our neighbor, but also loved our enemies, which fits with have a love that is whole or complete, but has nothing to do with the concept of needing to have sinless obedience in order to make it into heaven. So please give justification from the surrounding context for why you reject what I said and justification from the surrounding context for why you interpret it as referring to sinless obedience.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again, he said nothing about needing to have perfect obedience. The Bible never speaks about anything special that is earned as a result of having perfect obedience or about what we fail to earn if we fail to have perfect obedience, but rather it denies that someone would earn their righteousness as a wage even if they managed to have perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5). Likewise, the Bible never states that the way to know God is through perfect obedience, but rather it speaks about the way to know God through acting in accordance with His nature in obedience to His law and about people who did that, but all of sinned and fallen short of perfect obedience, so knowing God does not require anyone to have perfect obedience.

 

[Soyeong]

There is a lage difference between sinlessness and not sinning through the power of the Holy Spirit. The first is not scriptural. The second is. Read Galatians 5 about the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit breaks no law.

Agreed. In Galatians 5:19-23 everything listed as works of the flesh are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that His law is intended to teach us how to express, are are also the way to know God and Jesus (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), which is eternal life (John 17:3), and which is not something earned as a wage even through perfect obedience.

 

[Gary K]

No, it is clear that the meaning is without sin before God. And this is how we must be before Christ comes, or He will say 'I never knew you' if we still continue in iniquity...

I disagree. Jesus liveth ever to make intercession for us. Meaning we will always have an intercessor. We must as all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Not so when the HS is the motivating spirt of our actions But; those are not our acions but God's.

 

[Gary K]

Agreed. In Galatians 5:19-23 everything listed as works of the flesh are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that His law is intended to teach us how to express, are are also the way to know God and Jesus (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), which is eternal life (John 17:3), and which is not something earned as a wage even through perfect obedience.

Notice fruit is singular. It is a package deal. When we abide in Him we do not sin. It is the constancy of our abiding that makes the constancy of our behavior. Both John and Paul make this clear.

Morris Venden also makes this clear.

 

[Psalm 27]

Yes, really, there is nothing in the context of Matthew 5:48 that speaks about needing to have perfect obedience.

We must be reading different Bibles

 

[Soyeong]

We must be reading different Bibles

In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus spoke about having a love where we did not just love our neighbor, but also loved our enemies, which fits with have a love that is whole or complete, but has nothing to do with the concept of needing to have sinless obedience in order to make it into heaven. So please give justification from the surrounding context for why you reject what I said and justification from the surrounding context for why you interpret it as referring to sinless obedience.

 

[Gary K]

No, it is clear that the meaning is without sin before God. And this is how we must be before Christ comes, or He will say 'I never knew you' if we still continue in iniquity...

Read CHS page 176. Jesus moves from. one phase of atonement to another. That means He never stops working in our behalf.

We .must harmonize all statements to find the truth.

 

[Gary K]

Jesus did say "perfect" though? Thats His words, not mine

No. Jesus spoke no Engish. We just have to go by the original language the author used. Even them Strong's can be unclear sometimes. Not being experts in Greek limits us.

I think we would do eell to use multiple trsnslatios to get the broadest sense of the Greek.

 

[Psalm 27]

No. Jesus spoke no Engish. We just have to go by the original language the author used. Even them Strong's can be unclear sometimes. Not being experts in Greek limits us.

I think we would do eell to use multiple trsnslatios to get the broadest sense of

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Matthew 5:48
Be therefore perfect, just as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.”

 

[Psalm 27]

In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus spoke about having a love where we did not just love our neighbor, but also loved our enemies, which fits with have a love that is whole or complete, but has nothing to do with the concept of needing to have sinless obedience in order to make it into heaven. So please give justification from the surrounding context for why you reject what I said and justification from the surrounding context for why you interpret it as referring to sinless obedience.

If we did love our enemies, that would pretty much be perfection. (Impossible to do, in our own strength)
Jesus perfects people. Without Him, we could do nothing.

 

[Gary K]

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Matthew 5:48
Be therefore perfect, just as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.”

Interesting. My Bible software has a lot of translations but

 

[Soyeong]

If we did love our enemies, that would pretty much be perfection. (Impossible to do, in our own strength)
Jesus perfects people. Without Him, we could do nothing.

Someone can love their enemies while not going through their life with sinless obedience to God's law, so that is not the same. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trust worthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on what He has instructions, while someone is not giving credit where it is due if they think that their reliance on what God has instructed is acting in their own strength. Jesus perfects people and obedience to God's law is what that looks like.

 

[Gary K]

I hate using a phone to post as I always have all kinds of errors but my laptop is no more. Hackers bricked it for me.

I never knew this before. Thanks.

 

[Gary K]

I hate using a phone to post as I always have all kinds of errors but my laptop is no more. Hackers bricked it for me.

I never knew this before. Thanks.

Someone can love their enemies while not going through their life with sinless obedience to God's law, so that is not the same. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trust worthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on what He has instructions, while someone is not giving credit where it is due if they think that their reliance on what God has instructed is acting in their own strength. Jesus perfects people and obedience to God's law is what that looks like.

Agreed.

 

[Gary O']

Interesting confab

Me, I'm just happy knowing The Holy Spirit is changing me
It's a rest
a joy I've not long experienced

I won't soon let Him go

 

[Psalm 27]

Someone can love their enemies while not going through their life with sinless obedience to God's law, so that is not the same. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trust worthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on what He has instructions, while someone is not giving credit where it is due if they think that their reliance on what God has instructed is acting in their own strength. Jesus perfects people and obedience to God's law is what that looks like.

All glory to God