Sin & The Sodomites

[Zecryphon]

Actually, it is you who can keep telling yourself this all day long but it doesn't make it any less of a logical fallacy.

So human logic is superior to God's revealed word? Isn't that what led to all the trouble in Eden in the first place?

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

The model for marriage is given.
​

Then it is truly odd that you can't point out where that model is given in the Bible. Especially since the Bible clearly states polygamous relationships that were approved by God and called marriages.

I have given it, repeatedly. I can't make people accept it as true. That's the job of the Holy Spirit.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Anything that does not fit that model is not a marriage. I think people are smart enough to figure this out. I don't think people need the Bible to be a big rule book that reads like Leviticus, telling them all the things they can and can't do.
​

Except the Bible here clearly contradicts you. You can claim that God just "allowed" polygamy until you are blue in the face, but you can't deny that even God considered all the wives as married. Not only are you trying to depend on a logical fallacy here, but one that is actually disproven by the Bible.

God allowed polygamy to deal with a certain social situation, but it is not His standard. We know from Genesis what the standard is. So I'm not claiming that God just allowed polygamy like it's no big deal.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

In the case of David, the reason that God would have given David more wives is so that David would not have had to murder to get Bathsheba and sin grieviously against the Lord. It's a lesser of two evils kinda thing. But that in no way is God promoting polygamy over His original design for marriage.
​

David was unique in that he was also a conquering king. Kings often took the women of the kingoms they conquered as wives. Since God gave kingdoms over to David, God can be said to have given David his many wives. But this is not God's intent for a proper marriage. Polygamy causes more problems than it solves.
​

The claims of the problems of polygamy were first outlined by the author of that article, not me.

The fact of polygamy in Old Testament times is abundantly witnessed in the cases of Abraham, Jacob, the judges, David, Solomon, etc. It was prevalent in Issachar (1Ch_7:4); among the middle class (1Sa_1:1 f). But it is treated, even in the Old Testament, as incompatible with the Divine ideal (Gen_2:24), and its original is traced to deliberate departure from that ideal by Lamech, the Cainite (Gen_4:19). Kings are warned against it (Deu_17:17; compare Gen_29:31; 30). Noah, Isaac and Joseph had each only one wife, and Bible pictures of domestic happiness are always connected with monogamy (2 Ki 4; Psa_128:1-6; Prov 31; compare Sirach 25:1; 26:1, 13).

Excerpt taken from article on Marriage as found in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
​

Except nowhere is it listed as a departure, rather it simply states, "And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah." Again, nowhere in the Bible does it prohibit polygamy, or even say that it shouldn't be done. By contrast we are told that David was given his wives by God and that the surviving brother should marry his dead brother's childless widow (regardless of if he was previously married). In fact, while a man could refuse to marry his brother's widow it brought disripute on the man and his posterity (Deuteronomy 25:7-10)

Except in this part of the article:

The fact of polygamy in Old Testament times is abundantly witnessed in the cases of Abraham, Jacob, the judges, David, Solomon, etc. It was prevalent in Issachar (1Ch_7:4); among the middle class (1Sa_1:1 f). But it is treated, even in the Old Testament, as incompatible with the Divine ideal (Gen_2:24), and its original is traced to deliberate departure from that ideal by Lamech,

Lamech is seen in the scriptures as the first person to depart from the standard that had been given in Genesis 2:24. Everybody else up until Lamech were following the instructions of God.



Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

You just don't get it. Gay couples can not be married according to the model and standard God set up. A gay couple will never be one man and one woman. Since they are not and can not be married, any sex they have is sinful.
​

I already have, but it's falling upon deaf ears. One man, one woman as seen in Genesis 2:24 as the Divine ideal. Anything that does not fit that model is not a marriage.
​

Again, the Bible does not support that only your "model" is marriage, it is clear that polygamous marriages were equal to monogamous marriages.

It is not my model. It's a model I follow that was instituted by God. It seems Lamech was the one who instituted polygamy, not God. Nowhere do the scriptures say that God blessed Lamech's marriages.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

God is Eve's father. He gave Eve to Adam to be Adam's wife. I don't know how much clearer it can be that a homosexual couple will never meet the criteria set forth by God as to who can be married.
​

Of course, Adam and Eve were the only two people on Earth at the time you claim God created that "model"; so logically God was talking about the two people that existed and not stating it as the only acceptable standard. If that were the only acceptable model per God then I would expect that somewhere in the Bible God would have stated exactly what marriage is in a way that doesn't require logical fallacies to "interpret".

When we see a departure from the standard given in Genesis 2:24 by Lamech, we see no approval from God on Lamech's actions. If God approved of this marriage of Lamech's wouldn't it make sense that God would have told Moses that He approved of this and that this new poly-marriage was good? He called everything else He made good. Why not this? Why is God silent here?

 

[Maren]

So human logic is superior to God's revealed word? Isn't that what led to all the trouble in Eden in the first place?

Not what I said at all. I said that the Bible never talks of a "model" or a "standard" or an "ideal". To create those things from what the Bible does say requires logical fallacies.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

The model for marriage is given.
​

I have given it, repeatedly. I can't make people accept it as true. That's the job of the Holy Spirit.

Yet strangely different Christians are claiming the Holy Spirit told them different things and their interpretation of what is written in the Bible is just as supportable logically as what you are claiming.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Anything that does not fit that model is not a marriage. I think people are smart enough to figure this out. I don't think people need the Bible to be a big rule book that reads like Leviticus, telling them all the things they can and can't do.
​

God allowed polygamy to deal with a certain social situation, but it is not His standard. We know from Genesis what the standard is. So I'm not claiming that God just allowed polygamy like it's no big deal.

That sounds like a straw man. Nowhere in the Bible does it sate that God "allowed polygamy to deal with a certain social situation". Nor does it ever state what God's standard is, no matter how you want to stretch Genesis 2 to support your claims.

Except nowhere is it listed as a departure, rather it simply states, "And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah." Again, nowhere in the Bible does it prohibit polygamy, or even say that it shouldn't be done. By contrast we are told that David was given his wives by God and that the surviving brother should marry his dead brother's childless widow (regardless of if he was previously married). In fact, while a man could refuse to marry his brother's widow it brought disripute on the man and his posterity (Deuteronomy 25:7-10)

Except in this part of the article:

The fact of polygamy in Old Testament times is abundantly witnessed in the cases of Abraham, Jacob, the judges, David, Solomon, etc. It was prevalent in Issachar (1Ch_7:4); among the middle class (1Sa_1:1 f). But it is treated, even in the Old Testament, as incompatible with the Divine ideal (Gen_2:24), and its original is traced to deliberate departure from that ideal by Lamech,

Lamech is seen in the scriptures as the first person to depart from the standard that had been given in Genesis 2:24. Everybody else up until Lamech were following the instructions of God.

Are you claiming that article is equal to the Bible? The Bible does not ever mention what God thought or commanded in terms of Lamech's marriage or if there were previous polygamous marriages. The article makes numerous arguments from silence -- he makes assumptions about facts that are not found anywhere in the Bible.

It is not my model. It's a model I follow that was instituted by God. It seems Lamech was the one who instituted polygamy, not God. Nowhere do the scriptures say that God blessed Lamech's marriages.

It is your model because it is what you believe in. It cannot be supported from the Bible that it is God's model without "reading into" what the Bible actually says.

When we see a departure from the standard given in Genesis 2:24 by Lamech, we see no approval from God on Lamech's actions. If God approved of this marriage of Lamech's wouldn't it make sense that God would have told Moses that He approved of this and that this new poly-marriage was good? He called everything else He made good. Why not this? Why is God silent here?

This is a complete straw man; God is only silent if we accept your logical fallacies. As such, you can't actually say that God never approves of polygamy, since marriage is approved. Not to mention it still requires people to ignore the fact that a prophet, speaking for God at the time, says that He gave David his wives and would have given him more -- that indicates more than simply allowing polygamy. It is also interesting to note that Moses was a polygamist as well (married to Tharbis and Zipporah). Even more interesting, when Miriam and Aaron tried speaking against Tharbis, Moses' Cushite wife, God rebukes them saying, "But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" (Num 11: 7,8) God saying that Moses is faithful "in all my house" definitely implies the Lord's approval (and not just an allowance) of Moses' polygamy.

 

[Zecryphon]

Not what I said at all. I said that the Bible never talks of a "model" or a "standard" or an "ideal". To create those things from what the Bible does say requires logical fallacies.

Right, the Bible never talks of a model, it simply gives one. Heterosexual marriage is the only model seen. No, it just requires drawing a conclusion.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

The model for marriage is given.
​

I have given it, repeatedly. I can't make people accept it as true. That's the job of the Holy Spirit.
​

Yet strangely different Christians are claiming the Holy Spirit told them different things and their interpretation of what is written in the Bible is just as supportable logically as what you are claiming.

Strangely, this response doesn't disprove my statement regarding Genesis 2:24 being the standard God set for marriage, which seems to be what you're objecting to.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Anything that does not fit that model is not a marriage. I think people are smart enough to figure this out. I don't think people need the Bible to be a big rule book that reads like Leviticus, telling them all the things they can and can't do.
​

God allowed polygamy to deal with a certain social situation, but it is not His standard. We know from Genesis what the standard is. So I'm not claiming that God just allowed polygamy like it's no big deal.
​

That sounds like a straw man. Nowhere in the Bible does it sate that God "allowed polygamy to deal with a certain social situation". Nor does it ever state what God's standard is, no matter how you want to stretch Genesis 2 to support your claims.

I'm not stretching anything. The model in Genesis 2 is the only model given by God for marriage. Even polygamy must follow that model. You've gotta have one wife before you can have more.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Except nowhere is it listed as a departure, rather it simply states, "And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah." Again, nowhere in the Bible does it prohibit polygamy, or even say that it shouldn't be done. By contrast we are told that David was given his wives by God and that the surviving brother should marry his dead brother's childless widow (regardless of if he was previously married). In fact, while a man could refuse to marry his brother's widow it brought disripute on the man and his posterity (Deuteronomy 25:7-10)

Except in this part of the article:

The fact of polygamy in Old Testament times is abundantly witnessed in the cases of Abraham, Jacob, the judges, David, Solomon, etc. It was prevalent in Issachar (1Ch_7:4); among the middle class (1Sa_1:1 f). But it is treated, even in the Old Testament, as incompatible with the Divine ideal (Gen_2:24), and its original is traced to deliberate departure from that ideal by Lamech,

Lamech is seen in the scriptures as the first person to depart from the standard that had been given in Genesis 2:24. Everybody else up until Lamech were following the instructions of God.
​

Are you claiming that article is equal to the Bible? The Bible does not ever mention what God thought or commanded in terms of Lamech's marriage or if there were previous polygamous marriages. The article makes numerous arguments from silence -- he makes assumptions about facts that are not found anywhere in the Bible.

I am not claiming the article is equal to scripture. I am using the article to disprove your previous claim. The model in Genesis 2:24 is the model that is followed until Lamech comes along and deviates from it. God never blessed Lamech's marriage. If it was good, why didn't God say it was good?

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

It is not my model. It's a model I follow that was instituted by God. It seems Lamech was the one who instituted polygamy, not God. Nowhere do the scriptures say that God blessed Lamech's marriages.
​

It is your model because it is what you believe in. It cannot be supported from the Bible that it is God's model without "reading into" what the Bible actually says.

I believe in it, because of what God has said. I don't twist the scriptures to fit my desires.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

When we see a departure from the standard given in Genesis 2:24 by Lamech, we see no approval from God on Lamech's actions. If God approved of this marriage of Lamech's wouldn't it make sense that God would have told Moses that He approved of this and that this new poly-marriage was good? He called everything else He made good. Why not this? Why is God silent here?
​

This is a complete straw man; God is only silent if we accept your logical fallacies. As such, you can't actually say that God never approves of polygamy, since marriage is approved. Not to mention it still requires people to ignore the fact that a prophet, speaking for God at the time, says that He gave David his wives and would have given him more -- that indicates more than simply allowing polygamy. It is also interesting to note that Moses was a polygamist as well (married to Tharbis and Zipporah). Even more interesting, when Miriam and Aaron tried speaking against Tharbis, Moses' Cushite wife, God rebukes them saying, "But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" (Num 11: 7,8) God saying that Moses is faithful "in all my house" definitely implies the Lord's approval (and not just an allowance) of Moses' polygamy.

This is going nowhere. We will have to agree to disagree about God's approval of polygamy.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

What would you call it then? This is the first union God instituted. God is divine. This is clearly the model that He wants followed as He told Moses when Moses penned Genesis 2:24 where a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined with his wife and the two will become one. Sounds like a Divine ideal to me.

If thats what it "sounds like" to you, rather than clearly states, then that, my friend, is a textbook case of interpretation leading to conclusion, rather than specific information.

Genesis 2:24. But you don't accept it as being God's standard. Posting verses that support God's standard over and over is pointless. Either you accept it or you don't. You clearly don't.

You interpret as being God's standard. I don't agree. Again, nowhere does the Bible say anything to the effect "This is God's standard"

Why bother? You'd just argue against it like you argue against everything that doesn't affirm your sexual behavior.

Sounds like a cop out from someone who knows that homosexual and arsenokroites is not as clearly linked as he would like.

There's not that much interpreation needed here as we're not dealing with metaphors or symbolic language. Words in Biblical Hebrew and Greek have fixed meanings. They don't change with the times like the English language does. So they say what they say and are not fluid to fit soceity's changing view of human sexual relations.

Sure Hebrew and Greek words have fixed meanings... and the FACT is that the Greek and Hebrew words in the Bible that have been translated in some versions as "homosexual" are NOT the words that are closest to the available words that would likely reflect homosexuality in the modern sense. All objective scholarly evidence suggests that arsenokroites means idolatrous ritual homosexuality, NOT a genuine monogomous homosexual relationship.

I never claimed I had the sole correct interpretation of the Bible and everyone else is wrong. Show me where I've said that. This is yet ANOTHER LIE by you about me. Are you just totally incapable of telling the truth? It would seem so. I go back to the original languages and find out what those words mean so I can glean the best possible understanding. You however seem to rely on your own personal interpretation and your own personal meditation and your own personal relationship with God. You rely on yourself for correct intrepretation. I do not, I rely on things that can be investigated and verified.

If in doubt, personal attacks?

But tha aside for a moment, if you ARE going back to the original languages, as you claim, then maybe you could explain why so many dedicated language scholars say that homosexual is NOT a valid or accurate translation of the verses in Leviticus and the Epistles?

Because mine is based on solid hermeneutic principles and investigation and yours is based on what you think and feel.

See, I think MINE is based on solid hermeneutic principles and investigation and YOURS is based on traditionalism, appeal to authority, and a desire to justify your pre-existing assumptions.

However, I am prepared to accept the possibility that I may be mistaken. Are you?