Sin No More

[Huldah]

Maybe we can't be completely sin free but I think that we will pay for the sins that we retain. We should try as hard as we can to as close to sin free as possible so payment won't be as severe. I also think that some use the fact that we are flesh as an excuse to sin. I believe that we'll have to pay for every sin we garner after baptism. Here are some things I found in the Bible.

1 JOHN 3:8-10--8-He that commiteth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9-Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
10-In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not rightousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

2 JOHN 1:6-7--And this is love, that we walk after His commandment. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. (refer to Alpha)

2 PETER 2:20-22--For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning
21-For it had been better for them not to have known the way of rightousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22-But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and, The sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1 PETER 1:14-17--As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15-But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16-Because it is written, Be ye holy for I am holy
17-And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning hear in fear:

HEBREWS 6:4-8--For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5-And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6-If they should fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame
7-For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs for them by whom it is dressed, recieveth blessing from God
8-But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unot cursing; whose end is to be burned

HEBREWS 10:26--For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

JOHN 5:14--Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and saith unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

MATTHEW 10:24-25--The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord
25--It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelezebub, how much more shall they call them of HIS household?

LUKE 12:47-48--47- And the servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48-But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have commited much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Hakan101]

Hey Huldah, we know that Jesus died for all of our sins, that in him we might have eternal life. His sacrifice covers all of our sin, no matter what we do his grace is far greater.

I don't see why we would only have to pay for some of our sins, and not all. Even so, we are unable to do it, just like those who are unsaved. If we were able to pay for our sins, then Jesus would not have needed to die. Those who would be "unsaved" could also simply pay for their sins, and be done with damnation. But that's not what the Scripture shows. We cannot pay for our own sins, we need Jesus.

 

[Montalban]

Hey Huldah, we know that Jesus died for all of our sins, that in him we might have eternal life. His sacrifice covers all of our sin, no matter what we do his grace is far greater.

This is more a general theology issue - this mistake.

If what you say is true then you could go out and murder people and there would be no consequence to you (in regarding God) to your actions because the 'sin' has already been paid for.

 

[Hakan101]

This is more a general theology issue - this mistake.

If what you say is true then you could go out and murder people and there would be no consequence to you (in regarding God) to your actions because the 'sin' has already been paid for.

Care to explain this more? It's awfully annoying to correct me only halfway.

 

[Montalban]

Care to explain this more? It's awfully annoying to correct me only halfway.

Are you saved?

Yes?

Then is there any sin you can now do that can change that status?

No?

Then you could murder.

 

[MorganFamilyMinistry]

In my opinion if a person is saved, Their salvation is secure. The work that Christ did on the cross covers all their sins past present and future.

Now rewards in heaven are NOT secure.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NIV 1984)
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Scott

 

[Rationalt]

In my opinion if a person is saved, Their salvation is secure. The work that Christ did on the cross covers all their sins past present and future.

Now rewards in heaven are NOT secure.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NIV 1984)
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Scott

That is interesting.Can you expand on the reward aspect ?.

 

[Montalban]

In my opinion if a person is saved, Their salvation is secure. The work that Christ did on the cross covers all their sins past present and future.

Now rewards in heaven are NOT secure.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NIV 1984)
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Scott

That means you can go out an be a murderer

James Hogg lampooned this stance in The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner

 

[Fuzzy]

Hey Huldah, we know that Jesus died for all of our sins, that in him we might have eternal life. His sacrifice covers all of our sin, no matter what we do his grace is far greater.

In my opinion if a person is saved, Their salvation is secure. The work that Christ did on the cross covers all their sins past present and future.

Even the sin of non-belief? Or, as Montalban states, committing sins after salvation?

 

[MorganFamilyMinistry]

That is interesting.Can you expand on the reward aspect ?.

First of all I would like to state that I serve God out of love. I'm not waiting expectantly for the rewards that are promised. If my reward is nothing more than being able to be near to God in heaven then that is enough.

Now, as for the rewards in heaven. Here are a few verses that talk about it. There are more, But I don't want to make this post to long.

1 Samuel 26:23 (NIV 1984)
23 The LORD rewards every man for his righteousness and faithfulness.

Proverbs 14:14
14 The faithless will be fully repaid for their ways,
and the good man rewarded for his.


Matthew 5:11-12
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 6:1
“Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Christianity is not just about salvation. There is so much more to the christian life. It can be rewarding now as well as in heaven. And if we are not living like we should, we can loose those rewards.

That means you can go out an be a murderer
[/B]

Jesus said in Matthew 5:21-23
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Have you hated some one? God has a plan of restoration if we fall.

Secondly, I don't believe that a person can have the love of Christ in them and then go out and physically murder some one. I'm not talking about acts done in war or in self defense, but just cold blooded murder. Verse 22 (above) eludes to this when it says that any one who calls his brother a fool is in danger of the fire of hell.
We are to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us. What did Stephen pray when he was being martyred? He said “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” (Acts 7:60)

Thanks,
Scott

 

[MorganFamilyMinistry]

Even the sin of non-belief? Or, as Montalban states, committing sins after salvation?

Like I said, "IF a person is saved". Which would imply that they were not only believers, But they had accepted the gift of salvation. As Paul said, You have to believe that God exists to have Faith.

Yes, sins committed after salvation are covered as well.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

I know a woman who went from Christianity to Witchcraft. She was angry with God for a time. She was even turning other Christians away from God. Then she wanted to come back to Christ, But she Kept hearing the lie that there was no hope for her. When I met her she was in a miserable state. I shared with her that God wants reconciliation. No matter what she had done, God would forgive her. I shared the passages about how Paul had persecuted Christians and yet God used him in a mighty way. You should have seen the relief the brought to her. She was crying, because she was so grateful to God.

There seems to be a belief among some of the unsaved that God will not accept them because of what they have done or they are not good enough to be saved. This is a lie from the pit of hell. 1 John 1:9 (Above) tells us that he will cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Jesus never said to get a hair cut and clean up your act before you come to him. He just said COME!

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Hakan101]

Are you saved?

Yes?

Then is there any sin you can now do that can change that status?

No?

Then you could murder.

Still not what I'm looking for. We all sin, before and after salvation. Why don't you give me a more complete answer?

 

[Huldah]

It is true that God will cleanse us from our sins. How might this be done? Will it be painful or will he just simply say--You're just fine for the unrepented sins you have commited. All WILL be saved. But there is a judgment of it wouldn't be called thus and I don't believe it'll be just for rewards.
Yeshua Bless You

 

[MorganFamilyMinistry]

It is true that God will cleanse us from our sins. How might this be done? Will it be painful or will he just simply say--You're just fine for the unrepented sins you have commited. All WILL be saved. But there is a judgment of it wouldn't be called thus and I don't believe it'll be just for rewards.
Yeshua Bless You

Sanctification can be painful especially if we don't want to let go. But the life afterwards is worth it.

Colossians 1:21-22
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

I agree that the judgment is not just for rewards. There are passages that talk about how people who have much (money, wisdom, scriptural knowledge, etc.) much will be demanded. There are also verses that talk about different levels of punishment.

 

[Fuzzy]

Like I said, "IF a person is saved". Which would imply that they were not only believers, But they had accepted the gift of salvation. As Paul said, You have to believe that God exists to have Faith.

Then your salvation comes in response to the payment (by Man) by belief, obeisance, and orthodoxy, in addition to the previously cited payment of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Yes, sins committed after salvation are covered as well.

Why are they covered? Wouldn't it be better to not sin? We'll assume, for the sake of discussion, that Man can actually overcome being a sinful entity.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

And people still wonder why some of us regard (certain manifestations) of Christianity to be morally and intellectually bankrupt?

 

[MorganFamilyMinistry]

Then your salvation comes in response to the payment (by Man) by belief, obeisance, and orthodoxy, in addition to the previously cited payment of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.


Why are they covered? Wouldn't it be better to not sin? We'll assume, for the sake of discussion, that Man can actually overcome being a sinful entity.

When you say payment (by man), that would imply that man must pay something in order to obtain salvation. That isn't so. Christ offers it as a gift. Man can either accept it or reject it. You don't "pay" for a gift by accepting it.

Sanctification on the other hand does require us to give up our old selves. But the benefits out weigh the cost.

I'm not sure what you are asking in the second part. It would be better not to sin. That should be our goal. But there are sins that people unknowingly commit.

Romans 5:20-6:4 (NIV 1984)
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 6:14-15
14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

How do you reject an abstract "gift"?

If you are a prisoner, and a general pardon is issued - you walk free, even if you insist that you don't want it.

Or, on a more personal level: if you wrong me, yet I forgive you - then you are forgiven. You needn't even know about it, let alone "accept" it.

Christians like yourself talk a lot about "unconditional forgiveness" - and then you attach all sorts of conditions to it.

Imagine the following scenario:

You bump into my car. After surveying the damage, I tell you:

"It's okay, I forgive you. Even though it is your fault, I will pay for the damage in full, absolving you of the burden. And I expect nothing in return."
Now, let's assume that you accept this offer (as we've already gone through the other scenario), relieved to find yourself let off the hook.
But then I continue: "Of course, to show me that you fully accept my unconditional gift to you, I expect you to get on your knees and confess to me that you are guilty and undeserving of my forgiveness. If not, you have rejected my unconditional gift, and I will see to it that you'll have to pay the price in full."

Is that unconditional forgiveness? If not, why not?

 

[Fuzzy]

When you say payment (by man), that would imply that man must pay something in order to obtain salvation. That isn't so. Christ offers it as a gift. Man can either accept it or reject it. You don't "pay" for a gift by accepting it.

Sanctification on the other hand does require us to give up our old selves. But the benefits out weigh the cost.

I can only receive Salvation, forgiveness for all sins (past, present, and future) that was covered by God's Sacrifice on the Cross by believing in His Authority to forgive me. That's quid pro quo.

I'm not sure what you are asking in the second part. It would be better not to sin. That should be our goal. But there are sins that people unknowingly commit.

How can they be sins if I don't know I'm committing them? How can I seek forgiveness if I don't know I've sinned? Wouldn't the sins I unknowingly commit be automatically forgiven if I adhere to the conditions of Salvation, all the moreso since they are so trivial as to not be known, or I'm such a wretched thing that I cannot tell Right from Wrong?

 

[MorganFamilyMinistry]

How do you reject an abstract "gift"?

If you are a prisoner, and a general pardon is issued - you walk free, even if you insist that you don't want it.

Or, on a more personal level: if you wrong me, yet I forgive you - then you are forgiven. You needn't even know about it, let alone "accept" it.

Christians like yourself talk a lot about "unconditional forgiveness" - and then you attach all sorts of conditions to it.

Imagine the following scenario:

You bump into my car. After surveying the damage, I tell you:

"It's okay, I forgive you. Even though it is your fault, I will pay for the damage in full, absolving you of the burden. And I expect nothing in return."
Now, let's assume that you accept this offer (as we've already gone through the other scenario), relieved to find yourself let off the hook.
But then I continue: "Of course, to show me that you fully accept my unconditional gift to you, I expect you to get on your knees and confess to me that you are guilty and undeserving of my forgiveness. If not, you have rejected my unconditional gift, and I will see to it that you'll have to pay the price in full."

Is that unconditional forgiveness? If not, why not?

On December 6, 1829 two men, George Wilson and James Porter, robbed a United States mail carrier in Pennsylvania. Both men were subsequently captured and tried. On May 1, 1830 both men were found guilty of six indictments which included robbery of the mail "and putting the life of the driver in jeopardy." On May 27th both George Wilson and James Porter received their sentences: Execution by hanging. The sentences were to be carried out on July 2nd, 1830.

James Porter was executed on schedule. George Wilson was not. Shortly before the set date a number of Wilson’s influential friends pleaded for mercy to the President of the United States, Andrew Jackson, on behalf of their friend.

President Jackson issued a formal pardon. The charges resulting in the death sentence were completely dropped.

Incredibly George Wilson Refused The Pardon!

According to the official report, THE UNITED STATES VERSUS GEORGE WILSON (Peters 7 Report Sections 150-163) Wilson was returned to court as they attempted to "force" the pardon on him. It is recorded that George Wilson chose to:

"...waive and decline any advantage or protection which might be supposed to arise from the pardon referred to..." Wilson also stated that he "...had nothing to say, and that he did not wish in any manner to avail himself in order to avoid sentence ..."

The case reached the Supreme Court. The Attorney-General made the following comments:

"The court cannot give the prisoner the benefit of the pardon, unless he claims the benefit of it... It is a grant to him: it is his property; and he may accept it or not as he pleases."

Chief Justice John Marshall wrote the following in the decision:

"A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the individual, on whom it is bestowed, from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed...

"A pardon is a deed, to the validity of which delivery is essential; and delivery is not completed without acceptance. It may then be rejected by the person to whom it is tendered; and if it be rejected, we have discovered no power in a court to force it on him.

"It may be supposed that no being condemned to death would reject a pardon, but the rule must be the same in capital cases and in misdemeanors."

In other words, George Wilson committed a crime. He was tried and found guilty. He was sentenced to be executed. A presidential decree granted him a full pardon. But George Wilson chose rather to refuse that pardon. The courts concluded that the pardon could not be forced upon him.

George Wilson Chose to Die!

That was in response to your first statement.

As for your second statement that if you forgive me then I am forgiven. As far as you are concerned that is correct. You no longer have that burden on your soul. But I'm still accountable to God for my actions. When Stephen was being stoned. He didn't just forgive the people. He asked God to forgive them. King David said that it was only against God that he had sinned.

As far as the scenario of me hitting your car. I see your point, but I think salvation would be more like you saying, "I forgive you, I will pay for everything all you have to do is admit that it was your fault and you need me to do this." Then I have the choice to make. Maybe I'm prideful and don't want to admit it was my fault.

We say that salvation is free or unconditional because we don't have to work for it. No matter how sinful a person is, they can come to Christ if they want to. Jesus said that the prostitutes and the tax collectors were entering the kingdom of heaven ahead of the religious leaders because they knew that they could not get there on their own.

Thanks,
Scott