Sin No More

[Montalban]

Now, imagine this exchange taking place in real life, with an as-of-yet uncrucified Jesus replying to an actual question, NOT addressing a reading posterity who imbues that line with all sorts of hindsights.

What would that reply have conveyed to the person who was asking, at that time?

Especially in the context that Jesus was saying that people must really eat his body and drink his blood to have everlasting life

 

[anada]

So you're punished in heaven? Or is this purgatory you believe in?

Here on earth mate. Read the passage.

How would you know when you don't know anything about my church?

Yeah you've for the most part done a good job of keeping quiet about that in this thread. However I gather you don't trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation? Would I also be right in guessing that you believe any of these:
-The equal authority of church tradition and Scripture
-Discouragement of individuals interpreting the Bible apart from tradition
-The perpetual virginity of Mary.Do you pray to Mary? Is she the "Queen of Heaven"?
-Prayer for the dead
-Baptism of infants without reference to individual responsibility and faith
-The possibility of receiving salvation after death
-The possibility of losing salvation

Feel free to correct me, I'm only asking to better understand where you are coming from since you disagree with nearly everything.

If believing were enough Jesus wouldn't have given us the whole 'separation of the sheep from the goats' episode.

Do I really need to track down the countless verses which say salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone?

It doesn't say to baptise someone at 20, or at 18, or 65.

No it doesn't specify any age. Christian baptism is, according to the Bible, an outward testimony of what has occurred inwardly in a believer’s life. Christian baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. The Bible declares, “Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life” (Romans 6:3-4). In Christian baptism, the action of being immersed in the water symbolizes dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection. So how then can a baby make any such distinction or declaration of their faith? I will repeat: infant baptism is a church tradition with no Biblical basis. Conversely- Christian baptism is a step of obedience in publicly proclaiming their faith in Christ, and is Biblically based. A baby cannot proclaim their faith in Christ.

 

[Montalban]

Here on earth mate. Read the passage.

If you're punished on earth, it sounds a lot like karma

How's God punish you?

Yeah you've for the most part done a good job of keeping quiet about that in this thread.

My faith icon is there for everyone to see. Hasn't changed since 2003

However I gather you don't trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation?

I don't believe I said that. I rely on God's grace, but I have to be an active particpant - else there's no free will

Would I also be right in guessing that you believe any of these:
-The equal authority of church tradition and Scripture

Well as Paul preached the NT without it being set down he too didn't believe in the ultimate authority of Scipture, and in fact commends people to keep to his oral teachings as well

-Discouragement of individuals interpreting the Bible apart from tradition

Private interpetation leads to everyone being their own infallible Pope

-The perpetual virginity of Mary.

Yes

Do you pray to Mary?

And the saints

Is she the "Queen of Heaven"?

I'm not sure of that phrase. We call her "Theotokos" though... "Mother of God"

-Prayer for the dead

Yes

-Baptism of infants without reference to individual responsibility and faith

Baptised infants don't grow up without responsibilities

-The possibility of receiving salvation after death

I don't know about that one. I don't posit myself as the expert on Orthodoxy

-The possibility of losing salvation

I've already said that 'salvation' is a long process

Feel free to correct me, I'm only asking to better understand where you are coming from since you disagree with nearly everything.

I just disagree with heterodox teachings

Do I really need to track down the countless verses which say salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone?

Obviously then you have a contradiction between your understanding of those verses and the verses that say "faith and works"

No it doesn't specify any age.

Then you have no point

Christian baptism is, according to the Bible, an outward testimony of what has occurred inwardly in a believer’s life.

No. It's a rebirth - we're born into the church

Jesus said how happy we would be if we came to him like a group of children.

 

[anada]

Especially in the context that Jesus was saying that people must really eat his body and drink his blood to have everlasting life

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63-64).

"He who comes to Me will never be hungry, he who believes in Me will never be thirsty" (John 6:35).

Jesus is not commanding people to literally eat His flesh and drink His blood, He is telling them the core of all Christian doctrine: belief in Jesus Himself.

Jane, while His disciples may not have always understood exactly who Jesus was, they did eventually. Everything He said obviously stuck with them enough for it to be recorded, and for them to carry on his ministry, and spread the good news! After everything they'd witnessed I'm sure they trusted Jesus. And it did happen in real life.

 

[Montalban]

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63-64).

"He who comes to Me will never be hungry, he who believes in Me will never be thirsty" (John 6:35).

Jesus is not commanding people to literally eat His flesh and drink His blood, He is telling them the core of all Christian doctrine: belief in Jesus Himself.

Jane, while His disciples may not have always understood exactly who Jesus was, they did eventually. Everything He said obviously stuck with them enough for it to be recorded, and for them to carry on his ministry, and spread the good news! After everything they'd witnessed I'm sure they trusted Jesus. And it did happen in real life.

Read the whole passage though

He says his Body is real food

He's asked in effect "Are you serious?"

And he repeats it as so

It's not a metaphor

If your first passage is what you think it is then Jesus becoming man (flesh) was pointless (no avail)

 

[anada]

If you're punished on earth, it sounds a lot like karma

How's God punish you?

Perhaps you should read the verse I gave you. I'm tired of playing your games. If we sin after we have been saved God will discipline us as a good father does to his own child. If you want to know how He disciplines us perhaps you should ask Him.

I don't believe I said that. I rely on God's grace, but I have to be an active particpant - else there's no free will

So to get it straight, do you believe placing your faith in Jesus Christ and recognising you are a sinner in need of Him for forgiveness and salvation is what saves you? I'm talking about genuine faith which we know leads to a changed lifestyle than before you were saved (still a sinner)

Well as Paul preached the NT without it being set down he too didn't believe in the ultimate authority of Scipture, and in fact commends people to keep to his oral teachings as well

Yes but he had God's supreme guidance, saw Jesus and was involved with the apostles. He taught salvation through Christ alone.

Private interpetation leads to everyone being their own infallible Pope

And blindly following your church's interpretation leads to unbiblical practices...

Yes

Unbiblical

And the saints

Unbiblical

I'm not sure of that phrase. We call her "Theotokos" though... "Mother of God"

Unbiblical

Yes

Unbiblical

Baptised infants don't grow up without responsibilities

They also don't take the step on their own of Publically proclaiming their faith in our Lord. Which is the point of baptism. Unbaptised infants also don't grow up without responsibilities.

I don't know about that one. I don't posit myself as the expert on Orthodoxy

Do you think it possible though? Or rather, as you aren't allowed to think, have you heard any teaching to this effect?

I've already said that 'salvation' is a long process

Well stop beating around the bush and explain it

I just disagree with heterodox teachings

And I disagree with teachings where church authority is put higher than God's word- resulting in unbiblical teachings.

Obviously then you have a contradiction between your understanding of those verses and the verses that say "faith and works"

Nope, those verses refer to our faith resulting in good fruits, or fruits of the spirit. Not extra works (such as baptism for example) which is necessary for salvation.

Then you have no point

Yes I do, baptism is an individual's choice in a step of obedience honouring God, whether you're 15, 26, 50 or 80 you can make that choice. A newborn cannot.

No. It's a rebirth - we're born into the church

Spiritually. When we make that conscious decision. If I forced an atheist to be baptised what does it achieve? A baby is incapable of faith because it isn't aware. No matter how many times you say it or in how many different ways it doesn't change the fact that it has no basis in Scripture and is purely church tradition.

Jesus said how happy we would be if we came to him like a group of children.

I read a great quote on what that means once.

I can also testify to the fact that the difference in the age groups doesn’t have anything to do with sophistication of the questions but rather the attitude in which the questions are asked.[bless and do not curse] A six year old asks a question because he really wants to know.[bless and do not curse] A thirteen year old wants to play gotcha.[bless and do not curse] A senior in high school already knows the answer and knows you’re wrong.[bless and do not curse] A college kid wants to tell you the answer.[bless and do not curse]

EDIT: What's with all the "Bless and do not curse" through the bit I pasted?

 

[3rdHeaven]

I see we are now arguing baptism of babies lol.

Wow. Just wow.

This is why I could never officially become a OC or RC or any C

too many man made creeds and no room for private opinions and every one is a Bible expert and quick to condemn lol

Simply wow.

Please carry on, perhaps I will check in again when you get to if Adam and Eve had belly buttons or not.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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