Sin is...

[Aseyesee]

Yes, God foreknows what will happen in the future, but in my post I said foreknowledge does not demand, require predetermination.

What do you call it, when you know the result of your actions before you do it, but do it any way ...

 

[Si_monfaith]

But they did sin and God's perfect justice does not allow sin to go unpunished...no unconditional eternal security for the Christian that will not repent of his sins...and the wages of sin is (spiritual) death.

Sin of choosing the law is what adam & Eve did.

Thereafter people sin by violating the law.

Sins are not imputed for those who know they are set free from the law (romans 5:13).

 

[Si_monfaith]

This is not to be found in the bible at all.

Either God or Adam was culpable for Adam sinning.

Romans 3: 20

 

[Aseyesee]

This is not to be found in the bible at all.

No ... it's not found in God at all.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Romans 11 fleshly Israel was God's elect but they were cast off, lost.

Election is not based on biological continuity.

 

[Si_monfaith]

There's a vast difference between loving, and being love ...

What is the connection between my statement and yours?

 

[Hammster]

You asked (in blue)

He forgave all our trespasses by canceling the record of debt.

So, were all of our trespasses forgiven? Yes? No?

1) Christ's death on the cross did not unconditionally forgive ANYONE's treaspasses.

2) when you use the word "our" I will assume you are referring to the group called "Christian". In this case, one must CONDITIONALLY obey the gospel and become a Christian to have all the trespasses he has committed forgiven. Then this Christian must continue to walk in the light to have all future sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ, 1 John 1:7.

So then you still disagree with Paul that our sins were forgiven. You will have to correct him and say that our sins will be forgiven if we do certain things because Christ's death was not sufficient.

 

[TheSeabass]

The atonement was only for the elect.

Isaiah 53:12

"and he bare the sin of many"

Christ died for every man Heb 2:9, for those that are not Christians and those that are Christians 1 John 2:2.

Isa 53:12 says nothing about sins being forgiven unconditionally or that Christ died for pre-select individuals that were selected unconditionally.

 

[TheSeabass]

So then you still disagree with Paul that our sins were forgiven. You will have to correct him and say that our sins will be forgiven if we do certain things because Christ's death was not sufficient.

Paul's position and my position is sins are forgiven of those that conditionally obey the gospel.

Romans 6:17-18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified

Being freed from sin (forgiveness) is conditional upon obeying. So Christ's death is sufficient to remit all the sins of those that obey Him, Hebrews 5:9. The bible says nothing at all about certain individuals being unconditionally selected by God before the world began and all of their sins were unconditionally forgiven. No one's sins are unconditionally forgiven.

 

[TheSeabass]

What do you call it, when you know the result of your actions before you do it, but do it any way ...

I call it freely choosing what I want to do knowing what the consequences are, whether they be good or bad.
You still have not proven that knowledge required predetermination.

 

[Hammster]

Paul's position and my position is sins are forgiven of those that conditionally obey the gospel.

Romans 6:17-18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified

Being freed from sin (forgiveness) is conditional upon obeying. So Christ's death is sufficient to remit all the sins of those that obey Him, Hebrews 5:9. The bible says nothing at all about certain individuals being unconditionally selected by God before the world began and all of their sins were unconditionally forgiven. No one's sins are unconditionally forgiven.

So you believe part of Paul, when taken out of context, but disagree with him elsewhere when taken in context.

That must be tiring.

 

[TheSeabass]

Sin of choosing the law is what adam & Eve did.

Thereafter people sin by violating the law.

Sins are not imputed for those who know they are set free from the law (romans 5:13).

"The law" in Romans 5:13 is referring to the OT law of Moses. It is not referring to Christ's NT law which Paul himself said he was under, 1 Corinthians 9:21. Paul is pointing out in Rom 5:13 that even before the law of Moses was given there was sin in the world which means before the law of Moses (time between Adam & Moses) there was some law in effect which is generally referred to as the Patriarchal Law. If there were no law before the Law of Moses then sin could not be imputed to those that lived prior to the law of Moses for again if there were no law there would be no sin. But since people did sin prior to the law of Moses there must have been a law that existed.

 

[TheSeabass]

So you believe part of Paul, when taken out of context, but disagree with him elsewhere when taken in context.

That must be tiring.

Nothing was taken out of context nor did you prove such. Not in any context ever did Paul say anyone's sins are forgiven unconditionally. Such an idea is being read into the contexts.

 

[Aseyesee]

You can complete the statement so I can understand the idea.

There is mutiple ways to see it (in picture form), God played his part, as Adam played his, Judas played his part as God played his; a beginning and an end, in the person of God, as the reality that he purposed in himself.

 

[Hammster]

Nothing was taken out of context nor did you prove such. Not in any context ever did Paul say anyone's sins are forgiven unconditionally. Such an idea is being read into the contexts.

having forgiven us all our trespasses.

That's past tense.

 

[Aseyesee]

What is the connection between my statement and yours?

He pays, or removes sin by being all in all, one who who both wills and does of his good pleasure in us, which like Jesus becomes who we are.

 

[TheSeabass]

having forgiven us all our trespasses.

That's past tense.

Col 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

"Having forgiven you (those who had already obeyed the gospel in baptism becoming Christians verses 11,12) all trespasses".

In Rom 6:17,18 that form of doctrine they obeyed was water baptism just as those in Colosse were baptized then freed from sin. No sins of the Christians in Rome or Colosse was unconditionally forgiven.

 

[Aseyesee]

I call it freely choosing what I want to do knowing what the consequences are, whether they be good or bad.
You still have not proven that knowledge required predetermination.

Are we not predestined to be conformed into his image?

 

[Hammster]

Col 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

"Having forgiven you (those who had already obeyed the gospel in baptism becoming Christians verses 11,12) all trespasses".

In Rom 6:17,18 that form of doctrine they obeyed was water baptism just as those in Colosse were baptized then freed from sin. No sins of the Christians in Rome or Colosse was unconditionally forgiven.

Where in Colossians does it say that they were quickened when after they obeyed?

 

[JIMINZ]

God gave man free will and allows man to use that gift. Therefore God did not cause man to do anything against man's will. So God is not the author of sin nor culpable for man's choices/actions.

.
Chapter and verse where God gave Free Will to man?
God gave man Dominion, not Free Will.