Sin is a matter of ones personal conscience.

Aldebaran said:

That wasn't in the scripture, so I don't know.

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I think it's safe to say that we didn't have faith before he died for us. We didn't even exist yet. In fact, he was chosen from before the creation of the world to die and rise again for us.

So, to answer your question in post #80, I think Jesus would have died and risen again for people who are without faith, given that his sacrifice occurred well before many had faith, let alone even existed. While we were yet sinners (which could also involve a lack of faith), Jesus died for us. Even from before the creation of the world, he did this (probably because, being outside of time, his sacrifice was a done deal before the foundation of the world... something that will rupture my cerebral cortex if I contemplate it too long ).

Aldebaran said:

Ok, what you need to understand is that there are people in this world who are simply selfish. They don't care about others. We are basically born that way, which is why our parents who raised us had to teach us to share and be considerate of others. If you want to know what sin is, just read the ten commandments about what we're to do. Do people naturally follow them? If a person is angry enough with another, they will kill them. If a person wants something from another person bad enough, they will steal. Those are just a couple examples of sins. The Apostle Paul gives a good sized list of others. But you get the idea.

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Yes, I get that.
I think we're on the same page on that point.

SkyWriting said:

Knowing is pretty deep in the Greek. Not shallow hearing or even reading.
More like knowing your spouse.

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Seems like his opinion, because he obviously claims to know God's opinion.

SkyWriting said:

Sin is a matter of ones personal conscience.
Yes it is startling. But I come from a period where I
have taken scripture literally, as a good fundamentalist
should. It was Henry Morris from the Creation
Research Institute who taught his followers to aceept
the simplest reading of any passage as the base message
and then allow other versions to explain more.

As a result, taking scripture literally as a Fundamentalist,
has moved me into a catagory of being socially progressive.



2 Peter 2:21
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them.

James 4:17
16 As it is, you boast in your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, whoever knows the right thing to do, yet fails to do it, is guilty of sin.

John 9:41
"If you were blind," Jesus replied, "you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” Matthew 7:1-2
So, as you can read, Sin is a matter of ones personal conscience.
Yes it is startling.

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II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate's cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas' betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter's denial and the disciples' flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.

III. THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF SINS

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."127

1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.

IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:



When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134



While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

Aseyesee said:

In the end sin is a relative truth, not being about the law that is transgressed, but the soul that is condemned of itself for doing so.

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there is a huge theme of spirit vs the mere law that I have been seeing. in the bigger picture the law has an end compared to the rest God wishes to give to us. so to exalt the law to too high a degree seems to be a sin against the Spirit. the law is only fulfilled in the Spirit and the Spirit is greater than the law in the sense that eve was taken from adams curve/rib.

I think that this is a spiritual matter and not a legalistic one. I think that I get that this comes down to each person rather than the law since the law itself is only a manifestation against sin and it would not exist if sin did not exist since the law exist because of a reaction against sin. so the law properly understood (without sin polluting it) merely reveals sin and states that we should not be sinful because it is not good for us to be that way. or if you are spiritual the law reflects upon spiritual things. if sinful then the law reflects sin.

Gal 5:18-23 (YLT)
and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law. And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit. And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;

then why did God tell adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? are you saying that adam would have been fine if he ate of the tree that God told him to not eat of? how could adam be okay after doing something that God told him not to do? but adam obeyed a voice that was not Gods and he thus suffered over it. so this is not about commandments in the normal sense that people think but rather how God talks is in a "matter of fact" way. God speaks the truth and reality, he does not issue commands like a king that trys to force people to obey his ideas, rather God speaks about reality.

it seems that sin is relative because it is a condition of our being. it does not seem like a problem of the law but rather a problem in ourselves. most of us know that sin is described as "missing the mark" ( and who else could be the target but God?) and that the law itself is warped by sin because those who have sin have a warped perception of the law and use the law in sinful ways. the law can become a kind of idol that causes one to sin.

so what did God mean to adam when he told adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? you said that God said "who told you that you were naked?" and that answer seems to me to be:

the tree of knowledge of good and evil told him he was naked. and that the serpent told him as well... the serpent seems to be a symbol of both knowledge and of sin. perhaps the serpent is masculine and the tree of knowledge of good and evil is feminine. so to me it seems like a corrupted reflection of adam and eve. so it is a state of being that adam became and started to exist in which caused him to sin against what God told him.


now it seems that God telling adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the very tree of knowledge of good and evil but adam turned it into a law and thus set the law above himself and above God. if God was this very tree then it must be the law itself that gives the knowledge of good and evil, but it was only one thing God said and not his full infinite being/Spirit that we are to live in and with all that we are and that he gives to us freely and we are to give all we are to God because love wants it.

so since adam only clung to a partial truth that God gave to us for our good adam thought himself to be naked and was ashamed because the fullness of God is full clothing but to be in part is like having your clothing ripped off you. or to be naked and unashamed would mean that you are innocent and completely trusting towards God and being in his glory have no reason to be ashamed if nothing of you seemed to be against him.

so because of love adam must have his own perception and his own will and thus there must be more voices than only Gods voice but self-love kills us because Gods love goes out to us and so our image that we are as love going out to God is corrupted when it is only in itself or towards something inferior and not going out to God.

so Christ dying for our sins is to lead us back to God and not to condemn us who are already condemned. to acknowledge Christ is not to merely believe or confess a few words, to acknowledge Christ means to follow him and to live in him and he in you.

Christians have a big problem with thinking that Christianity is about confessing a creed and believing right doctrines. so many have turned Gods temple into a house of thieves and salesmens where all you have to do is buy a few correct words and beliefs to be a christian. you can magically believe you are a unicorn too but if you don't have 1 horn and 4 hooves then how much of a unicorn are you in reality?

SkyWriting said:

So be it. With God, all things are possible.

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All things? It's possible God can lie?
Titus 1:2

Noxot said:

there is a huge theme of spirit vs the mere law that I have been seeing. in the bigger picture the law has an end compared to the rest God wishes to give to us. so to exalt the law to too high a degree seems to be a sin against the Spirit. the law is only fulfilled in the Spirit and the Spirit is greater than the law in the sense that eve was taken from adams curve/rib.

I think that this is a spiritual matter and not a legalistic one. I think that I get that this comes down to each person rather than the law since the law itself is only a manifestation against sin and it would not exist if sin did not exist since the law exist because of a reaction against sin. so the law properly understood (without sin polluting it) merely reveals sin and states that we should not be sinful because it is not good for us to be that way. or if you are spiritual the law reflects upon spiritual things. if sinful then the law reflects sin.

Gal 5:18-23 (YLT)
and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law. And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit. And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;

then why did God tell adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? are you saying that adam would have been fine if he ate of the tree that God told him to not eat of? how could adam be okay after doing something that God told him not to do? but adam obeyed a voice that was not Gods and he thus suffered over it. so this is not about commandments in the normal sense that people think but rather how God talks is in a "matter of fact" way. God speaks the truth and reality, he does not issue commands like a king that trys to force people to obey his ideas, rather God speaks about reality.

it seems that sin is relative because it is a condition of our being. it does not seem like a problem of the law but rather a problem in ourselves. most of us know that sin is described as "missing the mark" ( and who else could be the target but God?) and that the law itself is warped by sin because those who have sin have a warped perception of the law and use the law in sinful ways. the law can become a kind of idol that causes one to sin.

so what did God mean to adam when he told adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? you said that God said "who told you that you were naked?" and that answer seems to me to be:

the tree of knowledge of good and evil told him he was naked. and that the serpent told him as well... the serpent seems to be a symbol of both knowledge and of sin. perhaps the serpent is masculine and the tree of knowledge of good and evil is feminine. so to me it seems like a corrupted reflection of adam and eve. so it is a state of being that adam became and started to exist in which caused him to sin against what God told him.


now it seems that God telling adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the very tree of knowledge of good and evil but adam turned it into a law and thus set the law above himself and above God. if God was this very tree then it must be the law itself that gives the knowledge of good and evil, but it was only one thing God said and not his full infinite being/Spirit that we are to live in and with all that we are and that he gives to us freely and we are to give all we are to God because love wants it.

so since adam only clung to a partial truth that God gave to us for our good. adam thought himself to be naked and was ashamed because the fullness of God is full clothing but to be in part is like having your clothing ripped off you. or to be naked and unashamed would mean that you are innocent and completely trusting towards God and being in his glory have no reason to be ashamed if nothing of you seemed to be against him.

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In some respects like a woman not enclosed by a man, the law not enclosed in spirit reveals our nakedness.

The law of our mother without the commandment of our father leads to a needful confusion, or something through the labor of found impossible to keep, which the journey of there and back again from one place depicts.

SkyWriting said:

I figured out how.

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Sure, cuz you say so. I guess we can just take your word for it with no explanation whatsoever.

SkyWriting said:

Yes, I figured out an answer. You'll have to suffer till you get tired of thinking.

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Well how convenient for you to have us just presume you're right.

lies and truths are the same thing to God because if he were to lie it would simply be the truth.

if God lied then I guess I am that outcome and I know he loves me so i'm okay with it. I will be his lie.

Noxot said:

lies and truths are the same thing to God because if he were to lie it would simply be the truth.

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So, if God were do say, "I am not God, I do not exist," that would be a true statement?

-V- said:

Well how convenient for you to have us just presume you're right.

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Looking at the content of your posts, you appear to do the same.

Aldebaran said:

But here's what's being left out: In John 3:16, it is spelled out that His sacrifice that was done so that those who believe in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. Without this requirement (having faith to believe on the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of their sin), everyone in the world is already saved including those who don't even have faith in Him to save them from their sin.

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Well yes; for every verse that says one thing, it seems there's another that says the complete opposite. We all need to draw our own conclusions as to why that is.

-V- said:

So, if God were do say, "I am not God, I do not exist," that would be a true statement?

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in a sense he did that and many are experiencing it.

also if he said that it would be true because our conception of "God" and "existence" is probably so wrong that if God said that he probably said it for our sake and so yes it is true because it is foolish to think that a finite creature can comprehend an infinite being.

SkyWriting said:

This, then is the one and only definition for sin, refusing the guidance of The Holy Spirit.

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I have already proved that is NOT the case. You are denying scripture to hold that position.