Sin, chaos, and entropy

[Grip Docility]

Right.


Technically, that is the change of entropy, not entropy itself.



The total energy of a closed system (which the universe is considered to be, despite its expansion) remains constant over time.



The scientific definition of entropy does not depend on time.

You need to distinguish between the concepts of entropy H, and the change of entropy ΔH.

Allow me to step beyond "semantics". It takes Energy without limit to have a system that shows no signs of "Entropy" or Entropy Delta. Science observes that some form of an "event" that introduced active energy conversion into our universe, occurred.

 

[tonychanyt]

Science observes that some form of an "event" that introduced active energy conversion into our universe, occurred.

reference?

 

[Grip Docility]

It takes Energy without limit to have a system that shows no signs of "Entropy" or Entropy Delta. Science observes that some form of an "event" that introduced active energy conversion into our universe, occurred.

reference?

The observable Universe. Astro Physics can only speculate what precedes the observable universe.

It’s the entire reason that we have colliders. Science is trying to find out what mysterious force preceded the observable.

“For ever since the creation of the universe His invisible qualities — both his eternal power and His divine nature — have been clearly seen, because they can be understood from what He has made. Therefore, they have no excuse;”

 

[tonychanyt]

“For ever since the creation of the universe His invisible qualities — both his eternal power and His divine nature — have been clearly seen, because they can be understood from what He has made. Therefore, they have no excuse;”

Do you have a scientific reference?

 

[Grip Docility]

Do you have a scientific reference?

The Author of everything that Creation scientifically studies lives in yours and and my soul.

If Entropy is infinite, Usable Energy is reduced to zero. If Usable Energy is infinite, Entropy would measure at zero infinitely.

This is simple. Why should it take a text book or Empirical paper written by another grass hoper dwelling in a well with the accolades of other grass hoppers dwelling in the same well that have no idea that an entire realm exists outside of said well?

This is posted in "Exposition". I would think that verses like this are more than sufficient.

"“For ever since the creation of the universe His invisible qualities — both his eternal power and His divine nature — have been clearly seen, because they can be understood from what He has made. Therefore, they have no excuse;”

Rom 1:20 Cross References (32 Verses)

www.openbible.info

 

[Mark Quayle]

It’s not quite fair to use semantics in an entropy discussion, in my opinion. Entropy is present where time is present. It is a state of decay that occurs due to the conversion of energy into mechanical work. The energy doesn’t naturally re-establish itself without some form of intervention. Does one have to back up and say “subject to time” to re-establish that entropy impacts things? Is Heaven subject to time?

Entropy:

1. a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
   "the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"
   
   
2. lack of order or predictability; gradualdecline into disorder.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Entropy is the progressing state of disorder that occurs over time as energy is expended through mechanical conversion.
   
   
   
   

The whole notion you present seems to me to depend on some relation to our current "reality" as if it is "what is", rather than being what Scripture describes as a passing vapor. GOD is the only solid reality, and entropy is only one of his inventions useful (as far as I know) only for this temporal universe, which, as I understand it, will pass away.

 

[Grip Docility]

The whole notion you present seems to me to depend on some relation to our current "reality" as if it is "what is", rather than being what Scripture describes as a passing vapor. GOD is the only solid reality, and entropy is only one of his inventions useful (as far as I know) only for this temporal universe, which, as I understand it, will pass away.

God is the source of all infinitely usable energy. There is only measurable "entropy" because of the deceitful change in Management, long ago in Ga' Eden. The Creation can't sustain the Creation. Entropy exists in Heaven, from the stand point of the scientific measure, but it is perpetually at 0.

That's the actual insinuated point when it is discussed as proof of biblical accuracy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is the source of all infinitely usable energy. There is only measurable "entropy" because of the deceitful change in Management, long ago in Ga' Eden. The Creation can't sustain the Creation. Entropy exists in Heaven, from the stand point of the scientific measure, but it is perpetually at 0.

That's the actual insinuated point when it is discussed as proof of biblical accuracy.

I like that.

But I doubt that God categorizes "useable" the way we do.

 

[DamianWarS]

Over the years, I have encountered a few Christians who relate entropy to sin, chaos, and death. Is this justified?

I don't think so, at least not scientifically.

Given a system, such as a room, the planet, or the universe, its entropy measures the system's thermodynamic state in units of J/K. When a system exists, its entropy exists and is theoretically measurable. Joules relates to dynamic energy; Kelvin relates to thermo temperature.

The second law of thermodynamics states that a system's entropy increases over time. No external physical force acts upon the closed system; it is just the nature of atoms and molecules residing inside the system.

Technically, entropy is not a force, and it does not measure the level of chaos either.

How do we understand the ratio J/K? What is this per Kelvin degree?

Given a system at any given time, its absolute entropy H is extremely difficult to calculate accurately. In solving practical problems, scientists often calculate ΔH, the change of entropy of the system over 2 instances of time, temperatures K1 at time 1 and K2 at time 2. When the temperature changes by 1 unit, Kevin, how much of the thermodynamic energy has changed? This is the unit J⋅K−1.

There is God who will one day put a stop to the current chaos and sin we observe on planet Earth. Still, the scientific measure of entropy may continue onto the new heaven and new earth. It measures the thermodynamic state of a closed system, not technically the amount of chaos or sin in the system.

before light is spoken is a higher degree of entropy than after light is spoken. day 2 is lower still and so on. day 7 is the state of lowest entropy before sin sets in and things return to chaos. the creation account is a progression of things moving to a more ordered state. Darkness separated from light, water separated from water, land separated from water are all acts of increased organized states and the only way it can do this is through interference from an outside force otherwise alone it would remain a dark formless void. The inverse would be things moving to an increasingly disordered state and this is what entropy is. rest to chaos is an effect of entropic systems. light to darkness is too, formed to unformed, man to earth, etc... these are all the inevitable results of entropic systems Ecc 3:20 "All come from dust, and to dust all return"

like you said the force is not entropic, but rather to sustain an organized state you need a constant flow of outside energy. that energy is God and without God we would all return to chaos. God holds it all together Heb 1:3 "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." without God all things would fall apart, all things fall to disorder. Entropy is the natural movement of all things to a more disorganized state. Perhaps in a closed system but a designed closed system, this natural trajectory of entropy is by design and the only way to keep something decaying forever is to constantly inject it with an outside force.

It's not that I'm calling sin entropy, it's that I'm saying without God the evitable result is the same, sin, death, decay, etc... and this process can be described as entropy. (Sin is the metaphor aspect but the bible takes the same liberties) without intervention from God our death and decay would be endless but with continued intervention from God our lives may be continually sustained. this sounds like eternal life and eternal punishment and that God is the source of eternal life but also the absence of which has an effect of eternal decay and this eternal decay may be called entropy.

we are all in state of entropy, unless there is outside intervention, we will become weaker, death will overcome us, our bodies will turn to dust, and that dust will still move to an even more disorganized state, in a forever state of decay. at some point in this process, we may call this entropic decay hell or with outside intervention, we may call it eternal life.

 

[tonychanyt]

before light is spoken is a higher degree of entropy than after light is spoken.

Define entropy.

 

[DamianWarS]

Define entropy.

Broadly a measurent of disorder. So Gen 1:2 has more disorder than 1:3. Or 1:3 has more order than 1:2. But if you have something to say just say it.

 

[tonychanyt]

Broadly a measurent of disorder. So Gen 1:2 has more disorder than 1:3. Or 1:3 has more order than 1:2. But if you have something to say just say it.

That's not a scientific definition, nor is it a biblical definition. You are using the word without a proper and precise definition.

 

[DamianWarS]

That's not a scientific definition, nor is it a biblical definition. You are using the word without a proper and precise definition.

It's a broad definition that I used in anticipation of your response. I'm not sure why you don't wish to engage. For example a follow up could be to tell me why Gen 1:2 is not a higher degree of entropy then Gen 1:3? What definition would you agree with for entropy?

The bible doesn't use scientific terms so I wouldn't expect it do define entropy. But it does contrast darkness/light, chaos/rest, unformed/formed, disorganised/organised, unseparated/separated, empty/filled etc... these are dichotomies that broadly fit into higher/lower degrees of entropy. These dichotomies are not scientific in nature but can still be characteristic within entropy.

The bible also uses these metaphorically to parallel spiritual dichotomies like sin/righteousness, evil/good, lost/found, unsaved/saved, etc...

It's not that the bible has to spell it out but darkness has a higher degree of entropy than light and that's just as true inside the bible as it is outside. The bible uses these metaphorically for the gospel message which we should easily agree with. The same can be interpreted in the creation account and Paul makes the same liberties in 2 Cor 4:6. These metaphors show us without God is darkness and with God is light.

 

[tonychanyt]

What definition would you agree with for entropy?

See the OP.

To you, what is the difference between entropy and disorder?

 

[DamianWarS]

See the OP.

To you, what is the difference between entropy and disorder?

I don't find the op's definition useful for the conversation. You state entropy is always increasing and "it is just the nature of atoms and molecules residing inside the system". I don't find "residing into the system" a useful way to describe the process of increased entropy. Water residing into a freezer turns into ice. Ice is a lower degree of entropy than water is.

You asked me what's what the difference between entropy and disorder? Disorder is the word I used to decribe the effects of increased entropy. Disorder is my choice word where yours seems to be "residing". You may argue disorder is too agenda driven intentionally choosing a chaos adjacent word but you can't reject it is a common word used, along with randomness, to describe increased entropy. I find disorder a better word than "residing", you may disagree.

Here's oxford (as it pertains to physics)

a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"

Assuming this definition, Gen 1:2 is a higher degree of entropy then 1:3. Day 1 is a higher degree of entropy than day 2. Day 2 is a higher degree of entropy than day 3, etc... and finally day 7 is the lowest state of entropy as compared with the rest of creation.

This is as it pertains to its physical states given to us and these physical states are used metaphorically for spiritual application (liberties the bible takes). I'm not calling sin entropy, but the physical states of creation can be described entropically in descending order. In this way the metapohor can be bridged to measurements of entropy too as their corcolate to their physical states.

 

[tonychanyt]

I don't find the op's definition useful for the conversation.

Right, but I prefer to stick to the precise scientific definition of the term. Most Christians use the term too loosely for my taste.

entropy = disorder?