Signs of the Times... what do you see?

[dad]

Not so much.
None of this is prophesy, it is all past tense,....

Wow.

Ok so let's cut to the chase here. Do you think Revelations is also in the past?

 

[parousia70]

Notice the wording used by James
Behold, the JUDGE is standing at the door! This is talking about a Judgment of God who was going to happen soon concerning the EARLY CHURCH.

I agree!
And Jesus refers to that 1st century Judgement as "the coming of the lord of the vineyard"
Matthew 21:40

That is confirmed by John in the TREE First Chapter of Revelation ...a Judment is going to happen soon upon the 7 Churches that were in existence at the Time ...

And that Judgement, according to John, was the "coming of Christ as a thief" Revelation 3:3

 

[parousia70]

Wow.

Ok so let's cut to the chase here. Do you think Revelations is also in the past?

First of all, it's the Book of RevelatioN. There is no S at the end.

And secondly, yes. It was written and addressed to the 7 first century churches of Asia Minor about soon coming events that were about to befall them.

The text is glaringly clear about that.

 

[Riberra]

I agree!
And Jesus refers to that 1st century Judgement as "the coming of the lord of the vineyard"
Matthew 21:40



And that Judgement, according to John, was the "coming of Christ as a thief" Revelation 3:3

Notice that the Coming of Jesus as a thief mentioned in Revelation 16:15-16 is still yet to Come...

 

[Blade]

Hmm Jesus said He went to make us a home and will come back and get us. So the time? I am looking up...cant you see the door wide open the foot of Him coming through? Now anyone can say pre mid or post yet.. it changes nothing. He went to make us a home. He said.. so when He comes back.. He takes us/gets us/receives us unto Himself so where He is we will be. Where He went we know. How He went we know. What each of us personally believe is NOT HIS WORD. It will never happen my way our yours.

Now.. if Jesus never lied about anything then.. we best be knowing HE is coming back NOW to get us period. Why believe some not all? To those not looking not ready not believing. To them like the 5 other virgins.. it will be like a thief in the night to them. A thief come takes something and you never seen it.

So there is nothing written that has to happen for Jesus to come get His people. So it can be NOW or another 20years. I hope and pray its another 20. If we go..someone stays and we know what is coming that is written there has never been a time so evil so bad or so much death suffering. As long as WE are still here ..NO devil no demon no fallen angel has power over us. Greater is HE that is in us then he thats in the world.

And man we should NEVER play with God. He has not changed. Did you read the OT? yeah.. OLD is the wrong word you know that right? You can say JESUS JESUS JESUS all you want.. GOD has not changed. There are things NO people on this earth could get away with with out some judgment. God told Israel this and that even the land will spit you out ..like it did them. I am not one of those.. hoping praying telling people JUDGMENT is coming. Jesus.. does not judge or condemn. But...when this WORD is all over the world. See its not every person that hears it.. its nations. And it has reached all nations.

This is just ME talking. If you want facts.. that is.. YOUR thoughts my thoughts your ways my ways are NOT His. So what WE think should happen or will happen is not HIM talking but man. For me.. I repent.. I stand in the gap for anyone or nation so my Father does not have to judge. This battle is not with man..flesh. This is written. But.. when flesh picks a side that is NOT GOD.. there is a price to pay.

means nothing.. I use to always be able to see to so to speak. Every time some one said this will happen or that.. I just new in my spirit not yet. means nothing.. I cant see any more. Its all gray. I have this .. not fear ..but.. I BETTER be watching praying always.. be ready NOW! Seems GOD has always done things HIS way.

SO you can say all you want this or that..but what Jesus said what is written will happen period. How it happens when.. DUH the season is now. Be ready now.. oil filled.

 

[dad]

First of all, it's the Book of RevelatioN. There is no S at the end.

And secondly, yes. It was written and addressed to the 7 first century churches of Asia Minor about soon coming events that were about to befall them.

The text is glaringly clear about that.

Great so you are admitting you think it is in the past. So please explain how these two things were done already...

A great quake that levels every tower on earth, and even all mountains....

All the water turned to blood on earth...seas rivers etc

?

Ha

 

[PollyJetix]

Why does a simple question of what signs have you seen... have to turn into a knock-down, drag-out fight?
Why do Christians gravitate toward fighting over prophecy?
This is disgusting.

 

[parousia70]

• Notice that the Coming of Jesus as a thief mentioned in Revelation 16:15-16 is still yet to Come...

• Just How many Comings of Christ as a thief are there?

 

[parousia70]

Great so you are admitting you think it is in the past. So please explain how these two things were done already...

As I have been saying, and you have yet to refute with scripture, they happened the same way they always happen when God Comes down to earth in judgement upon nations. All God's previous judgements follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, blood as deep as Horses bridles, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings as scripture testifies time and time again.

We have no scriptural basis or instruction to hyper literalize this language the way you seem to want to.

A great quake that levels every tower on earth, and even all mountains....

Just like the quake that happened when David defeated Saul, that laid the foundations of the entire earth Bare, that I cited previously.

All the water turned to blood on earth...seas rivers etc

Indeed, Just like what happened at Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Egypt in approx 600BC- Ezekiel 32:2-11
Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him... I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.

Pharaoh was ONE MAN, dad...
Yet God is promising that His 8 pints of blood will cover all the land, even to the mountains, and it will FILL the rivers.

Lest be honest. Even you don't take that literally dad, because you are a smart man. You recognize the literary tool of Hyperbole & Metaphor when you see it.

Ezekiel continues... notice the familiar language...

And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD....I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. For thus saith the Lord GOD, the sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.


Question for you now...

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Do you believe the moon will turn into actual Blood?
Will it be Human Blood, Animal blood? What kind of Blood?
Will the Blood just be covering the surface or will it be exactly like the scripture says and the entire moon will turn into a dripping, wet ball of Blood all the way to it's core? or, again, do you recognize this language to be metaphor and not speaking of ACTUAL BLOOD?

Ha

Indeed.

Note that whenever God has come in judgement in biblical times, earth-destroying, mountain-melting, humanity-destroying doom language is applied. I can (and will be more than happy to) list dozens of other examples of past judgments that use that language to describe God's hand in the rise and fall of civilizations and empires.

 

[Douggg]

Nothing faulty about my logic. Others have picked other points in scripture as the signal of the end times in the past. Thus far all have been wrong.



No, but you are roughly picking the time when He will return. Why does it matter? Why not just live every day as if Jesus could return that day?

The problem with making predictions is that it discredits Christianity why the prediction fails.

You are predicting that you will be resurrected and have eternal life, right? Does that discredit Christianity because it hasn't happened yet? Where are you getting that prediction? The same place where I am getting "the prediction" regarding the parable of the fig tree - Jesus.

Jesus's words matter because heaven and earth shall pass away but his words will remain forever - so it matters
because Jesus said to look up - your redemption draws near when we see those things about to come up on the earth that he spoke of in Matthew 24 start to happen - and the parable of the fig tree identifies the specific generation.

Taking the attitude "just live every day as is Jesus could return that day" is to me setting on the sidelines of being a Christian - I have a problem with the word "just". I say live every day as Jesus said.. and also participate in the hope of the glorious appearance of our Lord and savior. Participating means enthusiastic looking forward to according to the signs given in the bible. Which in turn, a person has to study the bible regarding the end times to know what it says. Which in turn means sharing with each other, comforting and encouraging each other accordingly.

Them who choose to cite failed predictions, without acknowledging specifically exactly, case by case, why those predictions did not come to pass, are against Christianity to start with - the failed predictions for them is an excuse not to believe Christianity they already had.

 

[Douggg]

Do you ?The parable of the fig tree /Matthew 24:32-33/ is about Jesus Second Coming mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31.

Verse 33 that the pre-tribbers wifully always ignore: tell us that when we will SEE ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENING WE WILL KNOW THAT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS TO ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM ON THE EARTH WILL BE NEAR.
Again there is nothing in these verses about a supposed pre-tribulation rapture.

Matthew 24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Whether a person is of the pre-trib view or not, the window for which the rapture must happen is rapidly narrowing.... because the fig tree generation puts a cap on it.

If Jesus said when these things are about to finish - then look up, you would have more of a case against pre-trib rapture, and for post-trib. I am anytime rapture btw, it might happen pretrib (pre-70th week) or might not. But not post trib.

 

[parousia70]

Jesus's words matter because heaven and earth shall pass away but his words will remain forever

He must be referring to a Different Heaven and earth here than the heaven and earth God established FOREVER here, yes?

Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passes away, and another generation comes;
But the earth abides forever.

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights,
Like the earth which He has established forever.

Psalms 89:36-37
His seed shall endure forever,
And his throne as the sun before Me;
37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
Even like the faithful witness in the sky.”

Psalms 104:5
You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,

Psalms 148:4-6
4Praise Him, you heavens of heavens,
And you waters above the heavens!
5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
For He commanded and they were created.
6 He also established them forever and ever;
He made a decree which shall not pass away.
(Bonus points if you can cite chapter and verse of this "decree")

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Taking the attitude "just live every day as is Jesus could return that day" is to me setting on the sidelines of being a Christian - I have a problem with the word "just". I say live every day as Jesus said.. and also participate in the hope of the glorious appearance of our Lord and savior. Participating means enthusiastic looking forward to according to the signs given in the bible. Which in turn, a person has to study the bible regarding the end times to know what it says. Which in turn means sharing with each other, comforting and encouraging each other accordingly.

My question on that would be, what did the Christian from the 1400's or 700's. or 1700's do to "Participate" in that Hope if there were, as you say, no signs (and therefore no hope) at all while they were alive?... we know for a fact many of them BELIEVED they saw the signs, yes?, and even taught their own flocks that there were signs to be seen in their day...

Does living with false hope count as "participatory"?

Them who choose to cite failed predictions, without acknowledging specifically exactly, case by case, why those predictions did not come to pass, are against Christianity to start with - the failed predictions for them is an excuse not to believe Christianity they already had.

The Bible has an air tight answer to those critics of Christianity who cite failed prophesies as their "proof". It's called Preterism. The skeptics have no retort to the "Fulfilled" answer to their "failed" objection.

 

[Archivist]

You are predicting that you will be resurrected and have eternal life, right? Does that discredit Christianity because it hasn't happened yet? Where are you getting that prediction? The same place where I am getting "the prediction" regarding the parable of the fig tree - Jesus.

No it doesn't discredit Christianity because I'm not tying a date to it. Jesus will come again. Maybe tomorrow, maybe 10,000 years.

Jesus's words matter because heaven and earth shall pass away but his words will remain forever - so it matters
because Jesus said to look up - your redemption draws near when we see those things about to come up on the earth that he spoke of in Matthew 24 start to happen - and the parable of the fig tree identifies the specific generation.

And other statements in scripture have been identified as signaling the end times and thus far they have all been wrong.

Taking the attitude "just live every day as is Jesus could return that day" is to me setting on the sidelines of being a Christian - I have a problem with the word "just". I say live every day as Jesus said.. and also participate in the hope of the glorious appearance of our Lord and savior. Participating means enthusiastic looking forward to according to the signs given in the bible. Which in turn, a person has to study the bible regarding the end times to know what it says. Which in turn means sharing with each other, comforting and encouraging each other accordingly.

No, I look forward to the return of Jesus. I trust that He will return. I just don't put a date on it.

Them who choose to cite failed predictions, without acknowledging specifically exactly, case by case, why those predictions did not come to pass, are against Christianity to start with - the failed predictions for them is an excuse not to believe Christianity they already had.

And what happens if Jesus does not return by 2030? You will be just as disappointed as everyone else has been.

 

[jgr]

The rest of your post seems to be more blatant out of context nonsense. Sorry.

Future or fulfilled?

Psa. 18
7 Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
14 He sent out His arrows, and scattered them,
And lightning flashes in abundance, and routed them.
15 Then the channels of water appeared,
And the foundations of the world were laid bare
At Your rebuke, O Lord,
At the blast of the breath of Your nostrils.
16 He sent from on high, He took me;
He drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy,
And from those who hated me, for they were too mighty for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the Lord was my stay.
19 He brought me forth also into a broad place;
He rescued me, because He delighted in me.

 

[dad]

As I have been saying, and you have yet to refute with scripture, they happened the same way they always happen when God Comes down to earth in judgement upon nations. All God's previous judgements follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, blood as deep as Horses bridles, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings as scripture testifies time and time again.

We have no scriptural basis or instruction to hyper literalize this language the way you seem to want to.



Just like the quake that happened when David defeated Saul, that laid the foundations of the entire earth Bare, that I cited previously.

A shaking that levels all mountains on earth is not like a quake in Israel thousands of years ago. Otherwise no mountain would exist today for one thing.

Indeed, Just like what happened at Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Egypt in approx 600BC- Ezekiel 32:2-11
Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him... I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.

Pharaoh was ONE MAN, dad...
Yet God is promising that His 8 pints of blood will cover all the land, even to the mountains, and it will FILL the rivers.

Don't be so literal.

Lest be honest. Even you don't take that literally dad, because you are a smart man. You recognize the literary tool of Hyperbole & Metaphor when you see it.

In that case, yes.

Ezekiel continues... notice the familiar language...

And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD....I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. For thus saith the Lord GOD, the sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.


Question for you now...

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Do you believe the moon will turn into actual Blood?
Will it be Human Blood, Animal blood? What kind of Blood?
Will the Blood just be covering the surface or will it be exactly like the scripture says and the entire moon will turn into a dripping, wet ball of Blood all the way to it's core? or, again, do you recognize this language to be metaphor and not speaking of ACTUAL BLOOD?

I don't know. Maybe there will be bloodshed on the moon also in the days it goes dark. Maybe before it goes out, we will see it really red like blood first also. In any case the events of the day of the Lord are specific and recognizable to those familiar with prophesy.

Your claim that there was a quake like the one in the end time in Revelation is shown to be wrong. Nor have all the stars gone OUT. Nor has water turned to blood on all the planet. Nor has all the trees and grass been burned up! Nor have we seen angels flying shouting warnings to the world while flying over! Nor have we seen a one world government and the mark of the beast. Nor have we seen more than half the population of earth die at once. Nor have we seen Christ return from heaven! Nor have we seen the 2 witnesses doing miracles and rising from the dead.

It is patently absurd to claim this was all history. Utterly impossible.

Indeed.

Note that whenever God has come in judgement in biblical times, earth-destroying, mountain-melting, humanity-destroying doom language is applied.

Any actions of God in the past pale in comparison to the time of His wrath at the appointed time.

I can (and will be more than happy to) list dozens of other examples of past judgments that use that language to describe God's hand in the rise and fall of civilizations and empires.

Strawman. No one questioned whwther God was with His people of old and also judged certain peoples and kinds etc in the past.

 

[dad]

Future or fulfilled?

Psa. 18
7 Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
14 He sent out His arrows, and scattered them,
And lightning flashes in abundance, and routed them.
15 Then the channels of water appeared,
And the foundations of the world were laid bare
At Your rebuke, O Lord,
At the blast of the breath of Your nostrils.
16 He sent from on high, He took me;
He drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy,
And from those who hated me, for they were too mighty for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the Lord was my stay.
19 He brought me forth also into a broad place;
He rescued me, because He delighted in me.

Both!?

 

[parousia70]

A shaking that levels all mountains on earth is not like a quake in Israel thousands of years ago. Otherwise no mountain would exist today for one thing.

It's HYPERBOLE.

Don't be so literal.

EXACTLY. We are making progress.

In that case, yes.

More progress! Hurray!
Tell me, Where does scripture teach you to to take this language as metaphor in one part of the bible but Hyper literalize the same language in another?

I don't know. Maybe there will be bloodshed on the moon also in the days it goes dark. Maybe before it goes out, we will see it really red like blood first also.

So you allow for some wiggle room between the literal and the figurative.
Good to know.

In any case the events of the day of the Lord are specific and recognizable to those familiar with prophesy.

Exactly what I have been saying.

Your claim that there was a quake like the one in the end time in Revelation is shown to be wrong.

Where?

Nor have all the stars gone OUT.

Did you even read Ezekiel 32?
According to Ezekiel, the stars went out when Babylon invaded Egypt and watered all the land and filled all the rivers with Pharaoh's Blood.
And you previously agreed it happened!

It is patently absurd to claim this was all history. Utterly impossible.

It's a fact. And your wooden literalism has been show to be faulty, for when pressed, even you don't believe in it with any consistency...

Strawman. No one questioned whwther God was with His people of old and also judged certain peoples and kinds etc in the past.

Hardly straw...I have show that you agree that when God judged OT peoples in the past and the prophets used language of physical visible calamities, trumpets blaring, mountains melting, stars going dark, moon turning to blood, God being seen riding a cloud, wielding His sword, destroying his enemies with He brightness, etc, etc, etc.. YOU AGREE that this language is Hyperbolic metaphor...

The challenge for you now is to demonstrate where scripture teaches you to Hyper literalize the same prophetic language when the Prophets applied to Christ's coming In Judgement.

I've got plenty of time.

 

[parousia70]

Both!?

Great!

Please explain to us HOW it was fulfilled in the past then.

 

[dad]

It's HYPERBOLE.

You can't say that is fiction, yet the part about Jesus returning is not. Package deal. The events are not given as anything but fact. Where there is symbolism, that is clear. Even still, in those parts, the symbolism at least equals reality.

More progress! Hurray!
Tell me, Where does scripture teach you to to take this language as metaphor in one part of the bible but Hyper literalize the same language in another?

No such thing as 'this language'. That language is called prophesy!

Where?

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


If the shaking took place so did His wrath. Seriously??

Did you even read Ezekiel 32?
According to Ezekiel, the stars went out when Babylon invaded Egypt and watered all the land and filled all the rivers with Pharaoh's Blood.
And you previously agreed it happened.

Watch out for prophesy. Intermediate fulfillments and final ones.

It's a fact. And you wooden literalism has been show to be faulty, for when pressed even you don't believe in it with any consistency...

The day of the Lord is found in the old testament also. Very consistent in all the things listed to happen.

Hardly straw...I have show that you agree that when God judged OT peoples in the past and the prophets used language of physical visible calamities, trumpets, mountains melting, God being seen riding a cloud, wielding His sword, destroying his enemies with He brightness, etc, etc, etc.. that that language is Hyperbolic metaphore...

Any judgments were small compared to the great day of the wrath of the Almighty. A prophesy can launch way into the future in the middle of a chapter or verse and often does, so those looking only to the past get left in the dust.

 

[dad]

Great!

Please explain to us HOW it was fulfilled in the past then.

The bits that were about the past are in with the bits best applied to the future.

Looking at a few verses it seems apparent that this is mostly about David's life in the past.

17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me. 18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay. 19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.