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shouldnt the ClC be added?

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RadMan

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PW and Chris what do you find suspect in the CLC stance posted here. Just curious.


[SIZE=+2]A History of the CLC, and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Differences between other Lutherans[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Prof. John Lau 07/09/95[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]The Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC) considers itself to be the true spiritual descendant of the Evangelical Lutheran Synodical Conference, which was formed in 1872 and lasted until the early 1960s. As that association of formerly conservative Lutheran church bodies in North America was drawing its last breath, the CLC was just becoming a church body.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The CLC emerged from three of the former member churches of the Synodical Conference: primarily from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), but also from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS). The Synodical Conference had originally been formed on the basis of full agreement in doctrine and practice on the part of the member churches; it broke apart when that basis and the biblical doctrine of church fellowship on which it rested was no longer fully practiced by the member churches.
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Members of the CLC are eager to testify to the truths that had been held by the Synodical Conference in the days when it had been faithful to the doctrines of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, as found in the Book of Concord of 1580; thus the name that was chosen: Church of the Lutheran Confession.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]This desire is also attested by the CLC's adopting the Brief Statement of 1932 as one of the confessional writings cited in its constitution. Thus the CLC confesses: "In our teaching and preaching we rely wholly upon the Bible, the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. We regard this Book of Books as the Word of God, verbally inspired and wholly without error as written by holy men of God. We consider our mission to be that of communicating the words and message of this Book to those who will hear them; and we know of no other divine source of true doctrine and instruction in the way of salvation and in God-pleasing living."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Further: "We therefore reject as sacrilegious and destructive every effort by which the intellect or science of man would modify or set aside a single inspired word. We deplore the wide-spread apostasy...which reduces the Bible to the status of a human document containing errors and myths."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]In the above-mentioned doctrine of the Scriptures the CLC differs widely from the most liberal branches of general Lutheranism, namely those Lutheran churches found in European nations and, in the United States, that Lutheran church body identifying itself, since 1988, as the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The ELCA is admittedly not agreed in doctrine among the church bodies which formed it through merger. Even its most conservative wing would not accept the high view of the Scriptures as verbally inspired and wholly without error, which is unashamedly taught in the CLC.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]As the ELCA is the most liberal of the Lutheran church bodies in the United States, so the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) may be regarded as the moderate, more middle-of-the-road, wing of American Lutheranism. It does not as yet go so far, for example, as the ELCA in permitting women to serve as parish pastors (although a poll of LCMS pastors reported that more than 1,000 of them had no objection to women clergy), yet it has changed its former position (as held by earlier leaders C.F.W. Walther and F. Pieper) and now permits women to vote and hold office in the church. This is one illustration of the present-day attitude of the LCMS toward the inviolability of Scripture. The LCMS espouses the notion that the words of St. Paul regarding women in the church were culturally-affected and are no longer applicable in today's society. The CLC, on the other hand, holds that St. Paul, writing words which were verbally inspired and inerrant, was expressing the eternal will of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Another illustration of this difference can be seen in the doctrine of the Church, particularly in reference to church fellowship. Because we of the CLC deplore any attempt to modify or set aside a single inspired word of Scripture, we also wish to be obedient to those words of God which instruct regarding the Church and the practice of fellowship. We firmly believe that the Church consists of all who, by God's mercy and according to His own purpose and grace, were from eternity ordained unto eternal life, and that the factor uniting the Church is "the one true faith." Faith cannot be seen by human eyes, and therefore the very existence of the Church is an article of faith. Since the word of God promises it, we believe that where the gospel in word and sacrament is in use there true believers are present.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In the exercise of fellowship in worship (praying together) and joint church work, we cannot recognize our brethren by the faith in their hearts, which is not visible to us. Instead, by the grace of God and in accordance with His instruction, we are permitted to exercise fellowship only with those who in their confession and life bow to the rule of the divine word of God. Because Christ Himself urged: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"; and because the Holy Spirit inspired St. Paul to write: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" - we know in faith that it is the divine will that Christians are to be perfectly united in doctrine and practice, and that they are not to be indifferent in this matter (perhaps "agreeing to disagree agreeably") but are to seek agreement on the basis of God's word. Where there is such unity in doctrine and practice there is to be the practice of fellowship in all its phases; where there is not such unity, God's word in Romans 16:17 sets forth the God-pleasing refusal of the practice of fellowship: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark (keep on taking note of) them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The CLC, accordingly, upholds the following in the Brief Statement of 1932: "Since God ordained that His Word only, without the admixture of human doctrine, be taught and believed in the Christian Church (1 Pet. 4:11; John 8:31,32; 1 Tim. 6:3,4) all Christians are required by God to discriminate between orthodox and heterodox church-bodies, and, in case they have strayed into heterodox church-bodies, to leave them (Rom. 16:17). We repudiate unionism, that is, church-fellowship with adherents of false doctrine, as disobedience to God's command, as causing divisions in the Church (Rom. 16:17; 2 John 9,10), and as involving the constant danger of losing the Word of God entirely (2 Tim. 2:17-21). ... The orthodox character of a church is established not by its mere name nor by its outward acceptance and subscription to, an orthodox creed, but by the doctrine which is actually taught in its pulpits, in its theological seminaries, and in its publications."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]In place of the above, which was once held by the LCMS, that church body now practices what they term "levels of fellowship," according to which fellowship may be practiced among Christians of varying confessions under certain curcumstances: such as open communion, ecumenical services and the like.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) and the Evangelical[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Lutheran Synod (ELS) are in fellowship with each other, though not completely agreed on the involvement of admonition in the process of terminating fellowship on their part with a church body which has "become infected with error." Both bodies, however, do maintain that it is necessary to make the judgment ("come to the conviction") that "admonition is of no further avail" before termination of fellowship can take place. The CLC, on the other hand, holds that such a subjective judgment regarding the further results of admonition is not only impossible, because only God can read human hearts, but also unnecessary; for Rom. 16:17 says only that when it has been ascertained that an individual or a church body is causing divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine of Holy Scripture, the directive to avoid is as binding as any word addressed to us by our Savior God in Holy Scripture. The apostle's premptory "avoid!" is the voice of the Good Shepherd Himself, as He lovingly protects His sheep and lambs from the deception of error and as He graciously gives warning to the false teacher. ... We reject any interpretation of Rom. 16:17-18 which, in the name of Christian love, would make the avoiding of causers of divisions and offenses contingent upon the subjective judgment that admonition is of no further avail and that an impasse has been reached.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It might be felt that the CLC exists merely to testify against the errors of others. The truth is that the CLC is, in fact, for something very precious, namely the full and complete revelation of God's word to the world of sinners, among whom we include ourselves. Surely, then, the CLC is an evangelical church, in the full sense of the term; our most important mission is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news that God has redeemed the whole world and has declared it righteous through the death and bodily resurrection of the God-Man, Jesus Christ; and that believers in Him will inherit everlasting life in heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]As part of its mission, the CLC is deeply interested and involved in Christian education. Christian day schools, taught by professionally trained teachers, are operated by more than one-fourth of its congregations. The CLC also educates young people for leadership as dedicated lay members, Christian day-school teachers, or pastors, at its Immanuel Lutheran College in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. The college has three departments: high school, liberal arts college, and theological seminary. There are four-year programs leading to a bachelor's degree in elementary education or pre-theological studies, and a two-year general studies program granting an associate degree.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Member congregations of the CLC are located in 23 states and Canada, and the church body presently supports missions in 18 U.S. cities. While not in fellowship with any other U.S. Lutheran body, the CLC has fellowship with three overseas church bodies it is helping to support in India and Nigeria.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The CLC has three official publications: Ministry by Mail, Lutheran Spokesman, and Journal of Theology.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Prof. John Lau[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]07/09/95[/SIZE]
 
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rockytrails

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It's just that both the CLC and the WELS have made statements about the LCMS that we do not believe are accurate.

Also, Herman Otten does not represent the LCMS in any way.

My post was not meant to be an attack or argumentative. While the WELS do claim some things about the LCMS that we believe are not accurate, we still get along and we honor their confessionalism.

My previous post has been edited.



yes Iam aware that pastor Otten does not officialy represent
the LC-MS .
you sound as if thats a good thing?
but the truth is
unlike him their are "some" hedrodox lutheran men that have.
certainly you have heard of seminex and those of their same mindset.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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[SIZE=-1]The WELS and ELS [/quote][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]are in fellowship with each other, though not completely agreed on the involvement of admonition in the process of terminating fellowship on their part with a church body which has "become infected with error." Both bodies, however, do maintain that it is necessary to make the judgment ("come to the conviction") that "admonition is of no further avail" before termination of fellowship can take place. The CLC, on the other hand, holds that such a subjective judgment regarding the further results of admonition is not only impossible, because only God can read human hearts, but also unnecessary; for Rom. 16:17 says only that when it has been ascertained that an individual or a church body is causing divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine of Holy Scripture, the directive to avoid is as binding as any word addressed to us by our Savior God in Holy Scripture. The apostle's premptory "avoid!" is the voice of the Good Shepherd Himself, as He lovingly protects His sheep and lambs from the deception of error and as He graciously gives warning to the false teacher. ... We reject any interpretation of Rom. 16:17-18 which, in the name of Christian love, would make the avoiding of causers of divisions and offenses contingent upon the subjective judgment that admonition is of no further avail and that an impasse has been reached.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]This may be what I take exception to, because it stems way way way back to when we were slow to split with the LCMS. it wasn't because we couldn't agree on when, it was because we were still extending grace to LCMS and hoping the synod would change its ways. CLC got impatient and basically said "to heck with you guys, we're gettin out now" and they've held that against us ever since then. If you look at WELS and ELS we are spot on together on every aspect of doctrine. If we were not, we wouldn't be in fellowship, for the very reasons the CLC puts forth above.

Of course, this is just a layperson's view of things. I could be wrong, but for me, that might be what grates on me.
[/SIZE]
 
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DaRev

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yes Iam aware that pastor Otten does not officialy represent
the LC-MS .
you sound as if thats a good thing?

It is a good thing.

but the truth is
unlike him their are "some" hedrodox lutheran men that have.
certainly you have heard of seminex and those of their same mindset.

I certainly wouldn't call Otten "orthodox". He is just on the opposite end of the spectrum from the seminex ilk. Neither of them are orthodox.
 
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DaRev

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[SIZE=-1]This may be what I take exception to, because it stems way way way back to when we were slow to split with the LCMS. it wasn't because we couldn't agree on when, it was because we were still extending grace to LCMS and hoping the synod would change its ways. CLC got impatient and basically said "to heck with you guys, we're gettin out now" and they've held that against us ever since then. If you look at WELS and ELS we are spot on together on every aspect of doctrine. If we were not, we wouldn't be in fellowship, for the very reasons the CLC puts forth above.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Of course, this is just a layperson's view of things. I could be wrong, but for me, that might be what grates on me.[/SIZE]

I don't believe that the WELS and the ELS have the same view of church and ministry.
 
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RadMan

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[SIZE=-1]The WELS and ELS [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]are in fellowship with each other, though not completely agreed on the involvement of admonition in the process of terminating fellowship on their part with a church body which has "become infected with error." Both bodies, however, do maintain that it is necessary to make the judgment ("come to the conviction") that "admonition is of no further avail" before termination of fellowship can take place. The CLC, on the other hand, holds that such a subjective judgment regarding the further results of admonition is not only impossible, because only God can read human hearts, but also unnecessary; for Rom. 16:17 says only that when it has been ascertained that an individual or a church body is causing divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine of Holy Scripture, the directive to avoid is as binding as any word addressed to us by our Savior God in Holy Scripture. The apostle's premptory "avoid!" is the voice of the Good Shepherd Himself, as He lovingly protects His sheep and lambs from the deception of error and as He graciously gives warning to the false teacher. ... We reject any interpretation of Rom. 16:17-18 which, in the name of Christian love, would make the avoiding of causers of divisions and offenses contingent upon the subjective judgment that admonition is of no further avail and that an impasse has been reached.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]This may be what I take exception to, because it stems way way way back to when we were slow to split with the LCMS. it wasn't because we couldn't agree on when, it was because we were still extending grace to LCMS and hoping the synod would change its ways. CLC got impatient and basically said "to heck with you guys, we're gettin out now" and they've held that against us ever since then. If you look at WELS and ELS we are spot on together on every aspect of doctrine. If we were not, we wouldn't be in fellowship, for the very reasons the CLC puts forth above.

Of course, this is just a layperson's view of things. I could be wrong, but for me, that might be what grates on me.
[/SIZE]
Except for some things NOT mentioned in the CLC website and mentioned on the CLC website I don't see a bit of difference between the WELS and CLC statement. It's been awhile since I checked the ELS website so I can't say for sure with them.

WELS states that the office of ministry extends to anyone called to a position in the "church". Something that I totally agree with. Is that correct?
 
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PreachersWife2004

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To be honest, I would need to check with hubby on that. Yes, I think you are correct there as far ministry goes. We call pastors and principals and teachers, and they are all divine calls. The synod, too, is a church. I would have to check again with hubby on whether the ELS agrees with that, but since we often take their calls as pastors and teachers, it is my assumption that they do. Given WELS and its very very strict adherence to fellowship principles, I can't see them taking actual leadership positions in a sister-synod that didn't see ministry the same way.

Like I said, my perception has always been that the CLC still is mad at us for not breaking with LCMS sooner. Perhaps the paragraph I singled out isn't addressing that.

But there's a reason we're not in fellowship with them. Gosh, maybe if I ask Matt THAT question he would know - and then I could quit guessing and showing off my ignorance!! ^_^
 
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RadMan

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PW said:
Yes, I think you are correct there as far ministry goes. We call pastors and principals and teachers, and they are all divine calls. The synod, too, is a church.
Yes, thats what I think would defeat any PLI initiatives and CEO's in the WELS. A pastor cannot claim jurisdiction as the total head of a congregation because there are many called to the ministry. Is that right PW?





.
 
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RadMan

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Taken from the WELS Site. This is the statement I'm referring to. Something that I would adhere to.

Wisconsin’s theological journal pointed out that God has prescribed no legal regulations for the New Testament church. Hence, as Acts 6:1-6 shows, the church is free to establish whatever forms of public ministry it in Christian wisdom and in keeping with good order and love considers useful. Likewise, in Christian liberty it can organize itself in whatever ways it chooses in accordance with these principles. The articles recognized that the pastorate of a congregation as we know it today cannot be equated with any office of the public ministry mentioned in the New Testament.

In the articles, it was noted that there is no passage in the New Testament which establishes the pastorate of a local congregation as the one divinely instituted form of the public ministry, nor is there a passage which establishes the local congregation as the one divinely instituted form of the church. Various kinds of public servants of the Word are Christ’s gift to his church, as is clear from Ephesians 4:11, 1 Corinthians 12:28, and other passages, and the gathering of Christians into various groups is the work of the Holy Spirit, as Luther’s Explanation of the Third Article states.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Yes, thats what I think would defeat any PLI initiatives and CEO's in the WELS. A pastor cannot claim jurisdiction as the total head of a congregation because there are many called to the ministry. Is that right PW?
.

Not exactly. The pastor is always the head of the flock. He is the one who holds the divine call to preach.

A councilman, for example, holds a call to be on the council and serve the church. He is NOT called to preach, but can occasionally be called to assist with the sacrament - if one of the presiding pastors is sick/ill and whatnot. Same thing with the principal of a school attached to the church (or several churches). Part of a principal's divine call is that he might be called upon to assist in church functions as well, whether that be in reading the liturgy or assisting with communion.

(I do know that ELS also follows this as I was very recently at an ELS church where the president of the congregation did the service and the sacraments because the pastor was away and there was no sub available.)

We have found on the synodical level that CEO line of thinking has pushed the synod to its financial breaking point. Don't know if that caters to anything in the discussion though.

Churches maintain power of their own congregations, but the synod acts like a supervisor. It makes it so that a congregation cannot just arbitrarily fire their pastor because they don't like his preaching method. And, the synod puts the pastor in check if needs be, too. Have seen it on both sides.

Hubby still hasn't answered my email about fellowship - I think he might've given up the ghost and gone to bed. :sleep:
 
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rockytrails

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Ever seen Sach's cartoons? How is that putting "the best construction on all things"?

You're tired of hearing unfounded ideas, yet you read Otten's rag? That's a contradiction of terms. :doh:


me thinks you Have Took a peek now and then at Christian News.

Good for you.

I think he use to send it free to lcms churches .

perhaps you get a different copy?

Because pastor Otten speaks quite highly of lc-ms pastors
who are confessional.

but yes he and some lcms pastors do not like each other .

But he gives them a chance of a say also in his paper.

exactly what do you want him to do ? Hide his head in the sand
and pretend every thing is fine with his beloved lcms synod?
when he truly believes it is not.
 
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BakaFidelis

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Actually over the past few years there have been a couple of close calls in breaking fellowship between the ELS and WELS. I believe they are still in talks over those issues.

One instance was WELS wanting to give women the authority to give communion to other women.

Another was ELS's recent controversy over a finalized doctrine concerning the office of the Keys and to whom it extends to publicly. And how the ELS president skipped over procedure and went straight for the defrocking of a major opponent to the doctrine.

Overall I am a bit confused over the ELS issue. I wasn't all in the best mind when it was happening and now that I try to review it, I get lost :D what I really need to do is get to a printer and just sit down with a hard copy and figure it all out! LOL
 
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rockytrails

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Not exactly. The pastor is always the head of the flock. He is the one who holds the divine call to preach.

A councilman, for example, holds a call to be on the council and serve the church. He is NOT called to preach, but can occasionally be called to assist with the sacrament - if one of the presiding pastors is sick/ill and whatnot. Same thing with the principal of a school attached to the church (or several churches). Part of a principal's divine call is that he might be called upon to assist in church functions as well, whether that be in reading the liturgy or assisting with communion.

(I do know that ELS also follows this as I was very recently at an ELS church where the president of the congregation did the service and the sacraments because the pastor was away and there was no sub available.)

We have found on the synodical level that CEO line of thinking has pushed the synod to its financial breaking point. Don't know if that caters to anything in the discussion though.

Churches maintain power of their own congregations, but the synod acts like a supervisor. It makes it so that a congregation cannot just arbitrarily fire their pastor because they don't like his preaching method. And, the synod puts the pastor in check if needs be, too. Have seen it on both sides.

Hubby still hasn't answered my email about fellowship - I think he might've given up the ghost and gone to bed. :sleep:


i hope you don't mind me saying a few things .

the doctrine called vocation .

would include the vocation we know as pastor.

But that Vocation
of pastor is not a higher and better vocation in Gods eyes than the vocation of being a custodian in a public school or a garbage man
for all these vocations are callings of God .
alll these vocation's are vocations where we should declaire the praises of Jesus who called us out of darkness into his wonderful light.
we are all priests before God

the difference now is
The pastor is called by the congregation to publicaly preach the word and administer the sacraments in a orderly manner
now the use of the key's is given to the church and the pastor
is our spokes person in this also.

Now the church is only self governing in matters of indifference to God
exampls of this would be the color of a sunday school classroom.
. things, that God has not commanded or forbidden in scripture's.

Jesus is the only head of the church The church or body of Christ are all equals including our pastor's.


Now their are some wonderful advantages a pastor has over other called worker's .They in general will be able to share Jesus with people others would not normally be in contact with

.And they also have the advantage of biblical studies the rest of us do not.

So we can incourage our young people to pursue such a vocation over other's not because it is better in God's eyes but because of the opportunity's to share Jesus it offers.


all Christians in all vocations are equally righteous before God

SUGGESTED reading
Luthers works 3:128
 
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RadMan

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Not exactly. The pastor is always the head of the flock. He is the one who holds the divine call to preach.

A councilman, for example, holds a call to be on the council and serve the church. He is NOT called to preach, but can occasionally be called to assist with the sacrament - if one of the presiding pastors is sick/ill and whatnot. Same thing with the principal of a school attached to the church (or several churches). Part of a principal's divine call is that he might be called upon to assist in church functions as well, whether that be in reading the liturgy or assisting with communion.

(I do know that ELS also follows this as I was very recently at an ELS church where the president of the congregation did the service and the sacraments because the pastor was away and there was no sub available.)

We have found on the synodical level that CEO line of thinking has pushed the synod to its financial breaking point. Don't know if that caters to anything in the discussion though.

Churches maintain power of their own congregations, but the synod acts like a supervisor. It makes it so that a congregation cannot just arbitrarily fire their pastor because they don't like his preaching method. And, the synod puts the pastor in check if needs be, too. Have seen it on both sides.

Hubby still hasn't answered my email about fellowship - I think he might've given up the ghost and gone to bed. :sleep:
You noticed I said "total" head?. The abuse stems from the use of CEOs in the LCMS and running it like a corporation. There are no checks and balances from the other "ministry" people since there aren't any. THe elders are "yes" men and the congregation has no say in the matter. ELCA does this to. It's a factor that is running rampant in both synods. Part of the Willow Creek format. It's building up steam and more and more churches are falling for it.




.
 
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DaRev

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You noticed I said "total" head?. The abuse stems from the use of CEOs in the LCMS and running it like a corporation. There are no checks and balances from the other "ministry" people since there aren't any. THe elders are "yes" men and the congregation has no say in the matter. ELCA does this to. It's a factor that is running rampant in both synods. Part of the Willow Creek format. It's building up steam and more and more churches are falling for it.

You make it sound like the norm. I would suggest that you do a little homework before making such generalizations... and that does not include Otten's rag.
 
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RadMan

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You make it sound like the norm. I would suggest that you do a little homework before making such generalizations... and that does not include Otten's rag.
I have done my home work and that's why I said it and I didn't get it from OTTEN. But I will ask him this Sunday at church if he knows more about it.

I also know many congregations "personally" in St.Louis that have converted to this position and all you have to do is go to the PLI website and it will give you of the list of turncoats and it's growing everyday. Check out Kieshnicks church to while your at it since you don't believe it's happening.

YOU do your homework and you wouldn't make these uninformed comments.
 
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