Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

[Job 33:6]

At the time of Creation people lived for hundreds of years. I do not know what type of environment allowed that but it was different from what we have now. Was there some type of dome? I don’t know. The environment was not the same as we know it today.

Ok, well when you figure out whether or not the sky in 300 AD was made out of copper or iron, you let me know. Until then, I'm not going to take your rhetoric seriously.

The dishonesty of YECism is so bad that people have to sit around contemplating whether or not there was literally a solid sky dome. Rather than just acknowledging that the Bible simply describes the same ancient cosmological perspectives of a solid sky, that literally every other ancient nation of the time did.

Remember, even the Greeks held to views of crystalline spheres surrounding the earth.

It's just a fact of history. This is how these things were described. And there was an ocean above this solid firmament that was firm. And that ocean gave the sky it's blue color.

That's why in Genesis 7:11 and 8:2 we read about floodgates in the sky opening and closing to release the flood waters.

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

The Bible really just can't state these things more plainly.

 

[Platte]

Ok, well when you figure out whether or not the sky in 300 AD was made out of copper or iron, you let me know. Until then, I'm not going to take your rhetoric seriously.

Pretty ironic considering copper and iron are in the atmosphere.

 

[Job 33:6]

Pretty ironic considering copper and iron are in the atmosphere.

So much so that you might pick it with an axe or auger through it after ascending a tower?

 

[Platte]

So much so that you might pick it with an axe or auger through it after ascending a tower?
View attachment 358068View attachment 358069

I have no idea what you are quoting. It’s not from the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

There is no solid dome stated in the Bible. There was a different atmosphere but you don’t know and neither do I what it was.

The only person who doesn't know what's going on here, is you.

And yes, the Bible very plainly describes a solid sky dome.

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Job 22:14 NRSV
[14] Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

Exodus 24:10 ESV
[10] and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.

When you're ready to be honest about what the Bible says, I'll be here.

 

[Job 33:6]

I have no idea what you are quoting. It’s not from the Bible

Well, maybe you should study up on ancient rabbinic sources so that you'd know them when you see them.

I could share more references, but CF only takes a max of 10 images per post. But the point of the above references is that, this is the historical traditional view of the Bible, held by both Christians and Jews alike. So if anyone comes around saying things like "Well early Jews believed that the universe was 6,000 years old", you can know that early Jews also thought that the earth was flat and covered with a solid sky dome. They were not 21st-century scientists, so if you're goal is to use them as a scientific reference, then unfortunately you are mistaken.

So the question then becomes, did Jews and Christians of antiquity simply misunderstand the Bible? And the answer is nuanced. Yes, they did mess up their interpretation of the Bible in the sense that they thought of it as a scientific treatise or description of the actual universe. When they read Job 38:17 about a sky as hard as cast metal, they believed that. But they misunderstood the Bible as presenting science. Which is what the catholic church persecuted galileo for, and its what modern YECs are doing today.

But, early Jews and Christians did actually properly understand the text in the sense that they knew what it said. They just didn't know how to properly apply God's teaching in terms of theology, rather than science. Because indeed, the Bible does contain an ancient cosmology, as a product of Gods accommodation, much like how kidneys and intestines are referenced throughout scripture as the seat of ones emotions.

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you normally describe the sky as being like pavement of sapphire stone?

No, but I am the last person to ask about how to poetically describe anything.

Exodus 24:10 ESV
[10] and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.


It's the same term, the Hebrew raqia.


When people ask you to describe the sky, is "strong" one of the first adjectives that comes to mind?

From one perspective, it is very resistant to passing through it (one cannot jump off the earth into the sky and pass through it). And it can be very, very strong in certain circumstances (like tornadoes and hurricanes). So yes, that seems like a very appropriate adjective, but seeing as I just said I am not very poetic, it very few adjectives come to my mind readily.

Um no, nobody today describes the sky as a solid dome that restrains water.

Figurative language or not, these passages still say what they say.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

I'm perfectly happy calling these figurative passages. But even still, they still describe a dome in the sky, as is per usual in ancient Israelite cosmology. And this solid vault or dome is described as restraining the waters above:

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

Or do you think that the NASB is "bastardized" when it talks about the sky's floodgates closing up and restraining rain?

It is clear from the Creation narrative and from other passages that there was a shell of water above the Earth as well as under the Earth in addition to the oceans and seas. Gen 7 and 8 tell us that these waters, above and below, were all released. There is nothing that says that these waters were replaced after the Flood, so what we have today is not what existed before the Flood. We have no frame of reference for understanding what it looked like, or how it worked when there was that shell of water around the Earth. But it is clear that it was there for the first 1658 years that the Earth existed.

And again, before you go on saying "well this is figurative and poetic and that's metaphorical yadda yadda"

Remember, metaphorical or not, it still says what it says. The text is still describing the sky with solid qualities, and in these instances, the sky is also restraining water above it (because that's what solid floodgates do, flood gates restrain flood waters).

It just seems like time and time again, you just have a problem with what the Bible says.

No, I don't have a problem with what the Word of God says. I have a problem with people trying to take figurative language and portray it as literal, and then saying that this constitutes the actual thinking of the people in that time.

 

[Job 33:6]

No, but I am the last person to ask about how to poetically describe anything.

Deferring to the Bible as poetry. Ok. Are you aware that this poetry is still describing a sky of a solid nature?

Again, just because something is poetry, that doesn't change what it says:
Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Job 22:14 NRSV
[14] Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

Exodus 24:10 ESV
[10] and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.


If I said that an object is "hard as a cast metal mirror", there are only so many ways to interpret that. If I said that, under my feet was a pavement of sapphire stone, again, there are only so many ways to interpret that.

It is fine to acknowledge these as poetry, but they still say what they say. This is similar to passages in the Bible about the earth resting on pillars. It's ok to call it poetry, but it still describes earth as though it were on pillars that hold it up.

Or, passages about our kidneys and intestines. It's ok to call it poetry, but it still says something that responsible readers of the Bible can't ignore.

It is clear from the Creation narrative and from other passages that there was a shell of water above the Earth as well as under the Earth in addition to the oceans and seas. Gen 7 and 8 tell us that these waters, above and below, were all released. There is nothing that says that these waters were replaced after the Flood, so what we have today is not what existed before the Flood. We have no frame of reference for understanding what it looked like, or how it worked when there was that shell of water around the Earth. But it is clear that it was there for the first 1658 years that the Earth existed.

No, it doesn't say that the waters were all released. In Genesis it says that the floodgates closed and the rains were restrained.

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

As noted above, the "waters above" are referenced later in scripture as well, as still being present. For example:

Psalm 148:4 NASB1995
Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens! Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place FOREVER AND EVER, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

No, I don't have a problem with what the Word of God says. I have a problem with people trying to take figurative language and portray it as literal, and then saying that this constitutes the actual thinking of the people in that time.

Says the person who believes in young earth creationism?

It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

Again, even if we acknowledge the poetic nature of this literature,
A. it still describes concepts of ancient Israelite cosmology, much like the poetic nature of the Bible's use of kidneys and intestines of ancient Israelite anatomy.

And B. Again, this is normal stuff. A solid sky, the waters above the solid sky. The earth over pillars, the underworld sheol. These are all common aspects of ancient cosmology observed both inside and outside of the Bible. The difference is, I don't treat it like science.

This is really what young earth creationism is when we actually begin studying scripture. People who claim to take the Bible literally, and not poetically or metaphorically. But then when we actually begin reading the Bible, all of a sudden, all they want to do is cry out "its poetry!" "Its metaphor!"

Ok fine. If that's how you want to treat the Bible, then stop reading the Bible like a science textbook, and start practicing what you preach.

Everyone wants to act like they read the Bible "literally", but then as soon as we start reading the Bible, all of a sudden, everyone backs down. But I bet as soon as someone starts talking about geology, all of a sudden those same YECs will switch back into their "literal" mode and act like they arent internally contradicting themselves.

 

[Job 33:6]

No, but I am the last person to ask about how to poetically describe anything.

From one perspective, it is very resistant to passing through it (one cannot jump off the earth into the sky and pass through it). And it can be very, very strong in certain circumstances (like tornadoes and hurricanes). So yes, that seems like a very appropriate adjective, but seeing as I just said I am not very poetic, it very few adjectives come to my mind readily.

It is clear from the Creation narrative and from other passages that there was a shell of water above the Earth as well as under the Earth in addition to the oceans and seas. Gen 7 and 8 tell us that these waters, above and below, were all released. There is nothing that says that these waters were replaced after the Flood, so what we have today is not what existed before the Flood. We have no frame of reference for understanding what it looked like, or how it worked when there was that shell of water around the Earth. But it is clear that it was there for the first 1658 years that the Earth existed.

No, I don't have a problem with what the Word of God says. I have a problem with people trying to take figurative language and portray it as literal, and then saying that this constitutes the actual thinking of the people in that time.

Here is the tablet of Shamash for example. It is an artifact from the 9th century BC, ancient Babylon. And it depicts a heavenly ocean above a firmament, and the sun god Shamash, enthroned above the waters. And the stars are set in the firmament.

You can call this poetry if you want to. But you should be aware that there is a cultural history behind these ideas. It's not just in the Bible.

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

Genesis 1:14 NIV
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

Lights in the vaulted dome. Waters above the vaulted dome.

 

[Job 33:6]

View attachment 358091
Here is the tablet of Shamash for example. It is an artifact from the 9th century BC, ancient Babylon. And it depicts a heavenly ocean above a firmament, and the sun god Shamash, enthroned above the waters. And the starts are set in the firmament.

You can call this poetry if you want to. But you should be aware that there is a cultural history behind these ideas. It's not just in the Bible.

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

Genesis 1:14 NIV
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

Lights in the vaulted dome. Waters above the vaulted dome.

And I'm not saying the Bible is copying different ancient pagan religions.

What I'm saying is that, the Bible says things that are "normal" or "common" with respect to cosmology of ancient times.

Just like with the kidneys and intestines topic. Some things are normal. The ancient Egyptians also never talked about the brain and they valued other organs like the kidneys as well.

This is a part of the cultural context of the ancient world.

 

[Diamond72]

Rather than just acknowledging that the Bible simply describes the same ancient cosmological perspectives of a solid sky

Did you read this in your science book? We talk about the windows of heaven. Do people think this is a literal window? When the Bible was written they did not have glass like we do today. If we listen to the weather man he talks about high and low air pressure. My son was working on temperature control for quality control in a factory that builds nano resisters. He said it is all about air pressure. When you open a window you equalize the pressure inside and out.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here is another artifact, @Doug Brents . The unfinished kudurru, 1100 BC.

Earth on pillars. Sheol below.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4 NASB

It even has a leviathan there, swimming in the deep. A common concept of the OT.

It's not as though the waters above went anywhere. That's just part of their ancient cultural perspective.

 

[Diamond72]

The ancient Egyptians also never talked about the brain

Moses said in the Hebrew to Love God with all of our heart, should & strength. Jesus in the Greek said heart, mind, soul and strength.

• Heart (Lev): Represents the inner self and emotions.
• Soul (Nephesh): Signifies the essence of life and being.
• Strength (Me'od): Implies might, resources, and all one's abilities.

• Heart (Kardia): Similarly reflects the inner emotions and will.
• Soul (Psyche): Corresponds to the life and essence of a person.
• Mind (Dianoia): Adds the element of intellectual and thoughtful devotion.
• Strength (Ischys): Indicates physical and all-encompassing effort.

 

[Job 33:6]

Did you read this in your science book? We talk about the windows of heaven. Do people think this is a literal window? When the Bible was written they did not have glass like we do today. If we listen to the weather man he talks about high and low air pressure. My son was working on temperature control for quality control in a factory that builds nano resisters. He said it is all about air pressure. When you open a window you equalize the pressure inside and out.

I get my information about the Bible from Christian Evangelical Bible scholars. That is what my background is.

 

[Doug Brents]

Deferring to the Bible as poetry. Ok. Are you aware that this poetry is still describing a sky of a solid nature?

Northern Lights​

Ghosts of dead rainbows dancing through the sky,
All heaven quivering to their noiseless feet,
Hand held in hand in eager circles fleet,
Sharp phalanxes that pierce, and darts that fly,
And ranks that shiver up to where on high
Spirits of light and ghosts of color meet
In a trembling phantom heart, whose pulses heat
With pallid beauty, palpitate, and die.

This poem is a contemporary poem I just found online (I did not write it). Are any of the things depicted here literal? Are the northern lights really the ghosts of dead rainbows? No, this is figurative, poetic language, and yes, it says what it says, but that doesn't mean that the author believed that what he said was literally true. It just makes for good (or not so good) poetry.

Again, just because something is poetry, that doesn't change what it says:

But it changes our understanding of what is said. It means that we don't take the words literally, but look behind the words at the image, the meaning being demonstrated by the words, to find the truth that the author is trying to get across.

If I said that an object is "hard as a cast metal mirror", there are only so many ways to interpret that. If I said that, under my feet was a pavement of sapphire stone, again, there are only so many ways to interpret that.

It is fine to acknowledge these as poetry, but they still say what they say. This is similar to passages in the Bible about the earth resting on pillars. It's ok to call it poetry, but it still describes earth as though it were on pillars that hold it up.

What are the pillars that hold up the Earth? It is God's power. Not some physical thing, visible or invisible, but simply God's everlasting, omnipotent power.

Or, passages about our kidneys and intestines. It's ok to call it poetry, but it still says something that responsible readers of the Bible can't ignore.

Sure, it says that we have feelings when we encounter the God who made us, and see His handiwork.

Says the person who believes in young earth creationism?

It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

"Evening and morning the first day"
"Evening and morning the second day"
"Evening and morning the third day"
"Evening and morning the fourth day"
"Evening and morning the fifth day"
"Evening and morning the sixth day"
What is figurative about this? There is one evening and one morning in any one day. This accounts for six days. This is not poetic, or figurative, or metaphorical. Yes, I believe that the Earth is only 5923 years old. All Scripture should be taken as literal unless there is good reason to understand it as figurative. All of the passages you keep citing are obviously figurative, but the Genesis account is not figurative for the most part.

Again, even if we acknowledge the poetic nature of this literature,
A. it still describes concepts of ancient Israelite cosmology, much like the poetic nature of the Bible's use of kidneys and intestines of ancient Israelite anatomy.

No, it does not describe their cosmology. Any more than the poem above describes our cosmology today.

And B. Again, this is normal stuff. A solid sky, the waters above the solid sky. The earth over pillars, the underworld sheol. These are all common aspects of ancient cosmology observed both inside and outside of the Bible. The difference is, I don't treat it like science.

It is not science. Science is: "the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained."
And it demands that a hypothesis be testable, repeatable, and observable. We cannot observe the events depicted in Scripture. We cannot test them, nor can we set up a laboratory and repeat them. So there can be no "science" in Scripture. But there is truth there, and that truth tells us that God made everything from nothing in six days, and from there the genealogy of the world ran straight from Adam to Noah (who was born in 1057 and died in 2007 after creation), and then split into numerous families beyond him.

 

[Job 33:6]

Northern Lights​

Ghosts of dead rainbows dancing through the sky,
All heaven quivering to their noiseless feet,
Hand held in hand in eager circles fleet,
Sharp phalanxes that pierce, and darts that fly,
And ranks that shiver up to where on high
Spirits of light and ghosts of color meet
In a trembling phantom heart, whose pulses heat
With pallid beauty, palpitate, and die.

This poem is a contemporary poem I just found online (I did not write it). Are any of the things depicted here literal? Are the northern lights really the ghosts of dead rainbows? No, this is figurative, poetic language, and yes, it says what it says, but that doesn't mean that the author believed that what he said was literally true. It just makes for good (or not so good) poetry.

Sure, but again, it still says what it says. Even as poetry, what comes to mind when you read it? Rainbows for example. You know what that is, and so do I. That word means something. And even as poetry, we cant simply ignore what it says. It holds meaning.

Saying that things in the Bible are poetry, doesn't really give us the right to essentially ignore what it is saying.

But it changes our understanding of what is said. It means that we don't take the words literally, but look behind the words at the image, the meaning being demonstrated by the words, to find the truth that the author is trying to get across.

What are the pillars that hold up the Earth? It is God's power. Not some physical thing, visible or invisible, but simply God's everlasting, omnipotent power.

Well that's really the whole point, isn't it? That, in essence, is Genesis in a nutshell. It's not about the literal history of say, the earth rising out of some kind of supernatural ocean or, God snapping his finger and trees just magically appearing.

We know that the sky dome with flood gates that open and close in the sky to release and restrain the waters above is not literally scientifically real. And yet, that is what Genesis plainly states in verses 7:11 and 8:2 for example.

Actually, I'll give you time to respond to my other comments for now. Unless your intent is to just shut off your brain and to ignore me.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure, but again, it still says what it says. Even as poetry, what comes to mind when you read it? Rainbows for example. You know what that is, and so do I. That word means something. And even as poetry, we cant simply ignore what it says. It holds meaning.

Sure it holds meaning. But not the meaning that the words literally depict. The northern lights are not the ghosts of rainbows. We know that the light doesn't go out of a rainbow and hang out in the sky until enough of them are together and then, poof, we get the ghosts of those rainbows dancing in the sky. This is not literal language. It does not, and cannot be construed as, a depiction of our concept of how the world works.

Saying that things in the Bible are poetry, doesn't really give us the right to essentially ignore what it is saying.

No, but it means that we must treat it as figurative, not a literal depiction of what the contemporary audience believed was how the world worked.

Well that's really the whole point, isn't it? That, in essence, is Genesis in a nutshell. It's not about the literal history of say, the earth rising out of some kind of supernatural ocean or, God snapping his finger and trees just magically appearing.

Yes, it is a literal depiction of God speaking and trees, fully grown and bearing fruit, appeared. As did fully grown and mature animals, land and sea and air. That is not figurative language. It is literal, and must be taken as true.

We know that the sky dome with flood gates that open and close in the sky to release and restrain the waters above is not literally scientifically real. And yet, that is what Genesis plainly states in verses 7:11 and 8:2 for example.

Do we know that is not literal? No. We have no way of going back and seeing what the sky looked like before the Flood. We do know that it did not rain before the Flood; God watered the Earth with dew, but there had been no rain before the Flood. So we don't really know how the world worked back then. Only 8 people on Earth ever lived in both the pre-Flood and post-Flood worlds. And they didn't leave any kind of record. Only God's Word through Moses gives us any idea of what it was like during that period.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure it holds meaning. But not the meaning that the words literally depict. The northern lights are not the ghosts of rainbows. We know that the light doesn't go out of a rainbow and hang out in the sky until enough of them are together and then, poof, we get the ghosts of those rainbows dancing in the sky. This is not literal language. It does not, and cannot be construed as, a depiction of our concept of how the world works.

No, but it means that we must treat it as figurative, not a literal depiction of what the contemporary audience believed was how the world worked.

Yes, it is a literal depiction of God speaking and trees, fully grown and bearing fruit, appeared. As did fully grown and mature animals, land and sea and air. That is not figurative language. It is literal, and must be taken as true.

Do we know that is not literal? No. We have no way of going back and seeing what the sky looked like before the Flood. We do know that it did not rain before the Flood; God watered the Earth with dew, but there had been no rain before the Flood. So we don't really know how the world worked back then. Only 8 people on Earth ever lived in both the pre-Flood and post-Flood worlds. And they didn't leave any kind of record. Only God's Word through Moses gives us any idea of what it was like during that period.

Are you really arguing that there may have actually been literal floodgates in the sky that opened and closed to release and restrain the waters above?

from my prior post:

No, it doesn't say that the waters were all released. In Genesis it says that the floodgates closed and the rains were restrained.

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

As noted above, the "waters above" are referenced later in scripture as well, as still being present. For example:

Psalm 148:4 NASB1995
Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens! Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place FOREVER AND EVER, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

 

[Job 33:6]

Are you really arguing that there may have actually been literal floodgates in the sky that opened and closed to release and restrain the waters above?

from my prior post:

No, it doesn't say that the waters were all released. In Genesis it says that the floodgates closed and the rains were restrained.

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

As noted above, the "waters above" are referenced later in scripture as well, as still being present. For example:

Psalm 148:4 NASB1995
Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens! Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place FOREVER AND EVER, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

@Doug Brents

Here's another thing too that is worth noting. Let's look at Genesis "literally" as you seem to want to do:

Genesis 1:6-8, 14-19 NASB1995
[6] Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. [8] God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
[14] Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; [15] and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. [16] God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. [17] God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, [18] and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. [19] There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Did you catch that?

You see, the firmament is in the midst of the waters, with the waters above, those restrained above, being above the firmament, or raqia.

And yet, the stars themselves are within or set in the firmament.

Meaning that the floods that destroyed the earth actually came from above the stars.

This is all normal stuff in ancient cosmology. It is exactly what is depicted on the tablet of shamash for example, an artifact of ancient Mesopotamia.

But what do you make of this? Are these floodgates, opening and closing in the sky, do you think that they are in deep space somewhere?

 

[Doug Brents]

Are you really arguing that there may have actually been literal floodgates in the sky that opened and closed to release and restrain the waters above?

A literal wall of wood or steel or such that restrained the waters? No. But even today we speak metaphorically of the "heavens being opened" or "the floodgates of the sky being released" when there is a major rainstorm (ie: hurricane).