Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
This is how I feel as well, quite strongly.
P.S. Simon, I responded to you above but we posted at the same time. You may not have caught it.
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Should you believe in the trinity II
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This is how I feel as well, quite strongly.
P.S. Simon, I responded to you above but we posted at the same time. You may not have caught it.
Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
I have a question.
Those of us who believe in non-trin or unitarian way are often accused of using intellect to create our own version of God. But isn't intellect a necessary component? I know there is a strong argument for faith, but aren't we also called to be on the lookout for false prophets? How are we do that without using our intellect to be able to sort out the true from the false?
Those of us who believe in non-trin or unitarian way are often accused of using intellect to create our own version of God. But isn't intellect a necessary component? I know there is a strong argument for faith, but aren't we also called to be on the lookout for false prophets? How are we do that without using our intellect to be able to sort out the true from the false?
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Simonline
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Based on the evidence so far, I believe that, unlike many on this forum, you are honestly seeking after the truth and I pray that YHWH will, by His Spirit, lead you into His truth (Jn.14:6)
OK. At least you're honest.
Then that begs the questions 'How do you conceive the God of the Bible as existing?' and 'Do you believe that the Messiah is God Himself, incarnate as a human creature, or an entirely separate, non-Divine, finite human creature from that of the Eternal and Immutable Creator as Absolute Reality?'
Have you ever honestly considered the Person of the Messiah and His incredible claims, both about Himself (as YHWH, incarnate) and about the rest of created reality?
I recommend the book: Jesus - Man of Many Names by Steve Maltz http://www.stevemaltz.com/books.htm (as well as the first two books of his trilogy The Land Of Many Names and The People Of Many Names which can also be obtained from the same website).
We all have to start somewhere. The issue is not when or from where we start but the attitude of our heart whilst we are on the way. Only if we seek God with all our heart will we truly find Him (Jer.29:13).
So was/is the Messiah. Just because we are human does not mean that we are incapable of communicating the truth with integrity. The canon by which all men should be assessed is the canon of Scripture itself (Acts.17:11) no matter how great is the man. Even the Messiah taught that he should be believed not on the basis that he was a miracle worker (since he wasn't the only miracle worker) but on the basis that everything He said and everything He did was a direct fulfilment of the Scriptures. It was His total conformity with the Scriptures as truth (the only canon that God has given Man by which to determine the veracity or falsehood of everything else that exists) that both authenticated and vindicated the Messiah's ministry as YHWH, incarnate as a man.
That's a good sign. Some people still have the same understanding of reality that they had when they first started out on the way many years earlier?!
Keep seeking. If you are open to the truth then eventually God will reveal Himself to you as Trinitarian. If you are not open to the truth then you will always believe that God is essentially Unitarian in Nature and nothing will ever change that.
That's all that I can ask. There is nothing wrong with saying that you are considering the argument but that you are not yet convinced.
Sadly, there are some on this site who are not interested in arriving at the truth. They are only interested in advancing their own (or those of the organization to which they belong) theological presuppositions and no matter what evidence is presented in favour of Biblical truth they will never accept it.
I do not believe that you are one such person.
Simonline.
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YeshuamySalvation
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Please address the above honest arguments properly without resorting to fabrications. If you are going to continue fabricating and discussing what wasn't said rather then what was actually said. Then and only will i stay put and enjoy my cup of ice cream while watching you get all tied up in your contradictory and Judgemental philosophical knots!
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Simonline
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I don't need to 'invent' an argument. All I have to do is follow in the footsteps of those more than able apologeticists who have gone before me (Jude.1:3)
You don't have to say something explicitly in order to 'say' it. I can tell from the reasoning of your arguments that what I have said about you is absolutely true. You have been 'brain-washed' by the culture of which you are a part to think of truth as being relative rather than absolute (otherwise you would believe all that the Scriptures actually teach about God rather than just your own personal opinion about God on the basis of a few Unitarian 'proof-texts' since, as every good Bible scholar will tell you, 'a text out of context is a pretext').
Then why have you responded?
It stands to reason that if you're going to put your faith in someone then, for your faith to be valid, you need to put your faith in the real person who actually exists, and not just in an idea that is more consistent with your own personal preferences?! If you have put your faith in anyone other than YHWH as revealed throughout the Judeo-Christian Scriptures then you are still dead in your trespasses and sins and the fact that you are sincere in your faith won't make the slightest bit of difference if the object of your faith doesn't actually exist?! It is possible to be sincerely wrong.
Furthermore, I have never said that one has to fully understand the Trinitarian Nature of God in order to be 'saved' (since that would not be true). All I have said is that since God has revealed Himself to be Trinitarian in Nature then if we are going to place our faith in Him we need to acknowledge that He exists as Trinitarian rather than Unitarian, even if we don't fully understand exactly what that means. We are saved by grace through faith but it is faith in the God who really exists and who really exists as Trinitarian and not Unitarian. Faith in any other conception of God is idolatry since God has not revealed Himself to be anything other than Trinitarian in Nature.
Unless you yourself are Omniscient how do you know that it is impossible for any fallible human being to understand God as Trinitarian?! Only one who is Omniscient can make such a statement and I know for a fact that you are NOT Omniscient?!
It is not impossible for fallible human beings to understand the Trinitarian Nature of God at all and the fact that you personally do not understand the Trinitarian Nature of God does not make it so. Don't assume that just because you don't know then no-one else can know either, since that is utterly presumptuous.
The Scriptures have reaveled that there is only one true God and that He exists (both Eternally and Immutably) as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. On that basis, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from all the evidence is that there is only one true God who is both Eternally and Immutably Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal in Nature (i.e. Trinitarian). Now you can spend your whole life denying what God has revealed but eventually the Messiah (as God Himself, incarnate as a man) is going to force you to publically acknowledge this truth as a prelude to being cast into outer darkness for spending your entire life trying to deny and supress it.
Philosophies are necessary for everyone, not just for the Greeks. Philosophy is the means by which we seek to make sense of the reality in which we find ourselves and there are good philosophies (i.e. authentic Judeo-Christianity) and bad philosophies (e.g. Atheistic Humanism). The Scriptures exhort us to steer clear of bad philosophies, not all philosophies (Col.2:8)?!
Simonline.
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Simonline
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This is how I feel as well, quite strongly.
P.S. Simon, I responded to you above but we posted at the same time. You may not have caught it.
Thats because it is a statement of absolute and incontravertable fact. Finite human minds cannot fully comprehend the Infinite but that doesn't mean that we cannot comprehend the Infinite at all (otherwise how could God possibly reveal anything to us)?! Whilst what God reveals to us is absolutely true, He doesn't reveal everything to us (nor can He because the finite cannot handle Absolute Infinity (but we can handle Absolute Infinity revealed in finite terms to which we can relate)).
I think I have caught all your posts but let me know if I haven't?
Simonline.
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Simonline
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Intellect is an integral part of who we are as human beings made in the likeness of the Creator and as such He expects us to use the intellect with which He has endowed us. We are commanded to worship God with all our mind as well as with all our heart, soul and strength and I have great difficulty with those who say that human intellect is 'anti-Christian' and should play no part in our Christian lives?! Such people, whose entire Christian life is based solely on their own subjective feelings, determine truth, not on the basis of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as the Word of God, but on the basis of how any and every religious experience makes them feel?! If the experience makes them feel good and positive then the experience is deemed to be 'good' and 'true' whereas if the religious experience makes them feel 'bad' and 'negative' then the experience is deemed to be 'bad' and 'false (demonic/Satanic)'?! Such people are ripe for being lead off into Perdition since their only 'canon' is their own fickle feelings which can so easily be manipulated by the Evil One.
That being said, the basic problem that I as a Trinitarian find with those who are Unitarian is that they are generally intellectually dishonest (and those who aren't tend, on the basis of all the Scriptural evidence (once it is honestly presented to them), to become Trinitarians very quickly). Having already decided a priori that God is, like them as finite human creatures, Unitarian in Nature (because, being Unitarian in nature themselves, they find Unitarianism much easier to understand than Trinitarianism) they then look for verses in the Bible that would (when taken in isolation) appear to endorse their own Unitarian understanding of God. Verses such as those which declare that, there is only one God, that the Father is God and that the Messiah is human (all of which are true but they aren't the whole truth about God or the Messiah). At the same time they also either ignore or deny all the verses that declare that the Son and the Holy Spirit are also the One and Only God and that the Messiah is Divine as well as human.
Whilst Trinitarians acknowledge that the Trinitarian Nature of God and His incarnation as a human creature (involving the hypostatic union) are difficult concepts to understand at least we are honest in that we base our theology on the full revelation that is the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and not just on those texts that, when taken out of their original Biblical context, appear to endorse our own theological, philosophical and metaphysical presuppositions?!
Let me ask you a personal question...I know that I can be arrogant and condescending but would you say that I come accross as being dishonest in my arguments? Would you say that I ignore parts of the Scriptures in order to argue my case or would you say that I seek to incorporate the full Scriptural revelation into my theology? Remember, this is God we're discussing here, the Absolute Creator of all else that exists, not just another finite creature. To a Trinitarian, God is not just a bigger version of themselves but without a body. He is Absolute Reality, what it means to exist in absolute terms. If the Scriptures are to be believed (and I absolutely believe that they are) then God cannot possibly be just a bigger version of ourselves but without a body (?!). Nevertheless, reading the way that some Unitarians argue about how they believe that God exists, it is blatantly obvious that that is exactly how they conceive God to be (i.e. 'a bigger version of us but without a body') and furthermore they expect God to exist and behave in the same way that we do too (?!). Such people simply do not understand that God is absolutely 'other' to humans as His finite creatures. The way that God exists as Eternally and Immutably Infinite is so utterly different to the way that we exist as temporally and mutably finite. There are things that are true of God that cannot possibly be true of us and things that are true of us that cannot possibly be true of God because of who and what we are respectively. God is the Divine Creator and we are His human creatures. Divine Nature cannot exist as human nature does and human nature cannot exist as Divine Nature does and yet, God has mananged to incarnate as a human creature?!
The truth is that anyone who has no problem understanding God is not worshipping the God who really exists but instead is worshipping an intellectual idol of their own making (one invariably made in their own Unitarian likeness)?!
Simonline.
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Simonline
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Sorry, but unless you can put together a cohesive argument as to why you believe the Trinity is wrong then I'm just not going to waste any more time with you. I have stated repeatedly why I believe that the Trinity is the truth and like all Unitarians you have just ignored all of my sound counter-arguments because they are theologically unassailable.
If you can show me where the Bible states that 'only the Father is God' or 'only the Son is God' or 'only the Holy Spirit is God' or that 'the Messiah is only human but not Divine', then (and only then) will I take you (or any other Unitarian for that matter) seriously. Until then, any other discussion is irrelevant. I refuse, point blank, to continually justify the truth to you simply because you refuse to believe it. Since Trinitarianism has been orthodox Christian doctrine from the outset the onus is on the Unitarian heretics to disprove it and not on the Church to have to continually justify it to each new generation that refuses to believe it.
The ball is in your court.
Simonline.
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YeshuamySalvation
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You're not counter arguing anything, you have no argument. All you have done is continue to expose your inability to address honest arguments. I'm not here trying to tear down your Trinitarian beliefs. I'm trying to reason with you to see if i can reach the same conclusion you have as far as understanding the nature of God.
Actually, i am not Christian, Unitarian nor Trinitarian, i am Jewish! As a Jew i've come to possibly consider a lot of possibilities regarding the nature of God. One of which maybe a plurality in the nature of the Almighty, though the reality is that there is only one, echad which is to bring into unity! The Shema mentions a pluralness in God's nature not a unitarian nature. Deut 6:4 Shema Israel, Adonai Elohaneu Adonai echad. As i've stated before, if the Shema was only a singular reference, then it would have to read Shema Israel, Adonai Echad only.
Now, if it's not to much to ask. Would you please so kindly address the meanings you are ignoring. This is about the third time i ask you!
This is more play on words, you have repeated that they are distinct but not separate. I have provided the definition of distinct and you've ignored it. Why? Lets try this once more, look below at the previous question i asked in which you exploded resorted to personal attacks.
Distinct >
1: distinguishable to the eye or mind as discrete : separate <a distinct cultural group> <teaching as distinct from research> 2: presenting a clear unmistakable impression <a neat distinct handwriting>3archaic : notably decorated4 a: notable <a distinct contribution to scholarship> b: readily and unmistakably apprehended <a distinct possibility of snow> <a distinct British accent>
— dis·tinct·ly
\-ˈstiŋ(k)-tlē, -ˈstiŋ-klē\ adverb — dis·tinct·ness
\-ˈstiŋ(k)t-nəs, -ˈstiŋk-nəs\ noun synonyms distinct, separate, discrete mean not being each and every one the same. distinct indicates that something is distinguished by the mind or eye as being apart or different from others <two distinct versions>. separate often stresses lack of connection or a difference in identity between two things <separate rooms>. discrete strongly emphasizes individuality and lack of connection <broke the job down into discrete stages>.
synonyms see in addition evident
Previously by Yeshua My Salvation > Distinct means different but not disconnected where as separate means complete disconnection. You said Yeshua is YHVH but distinct, how exactly does that happen? How can he be different and the same?
Previously by Yesuamysalvation > No i don't, not because i can't comprehend but simply because it makes no-sense. How in the world could Tri-Theism be different then what you are proposing? If being Trinitarian is not Polytheistic, then neither is Tri-Theism. If you tell me you believe in three deities in one then that sounds a lot more logical then saying three are one but different and the same. You can't have it both ways. It is either Tri-Theism or nothing.
I don't have a problem with the above statement. But only if you understood it as you are explaining it. One God simultaneously existing in three persons is not a Trinity. If you really see it as one God existing in three person simultaneously, then you wouldn't be saying that the persons are distinct or different. If there is a difference, or distinctiveness then it is not just one deity at work, it is three of them! If you say three deities can be one then i will regard you as honest, rather then standing there and playing this very dishonest word game with us!
What are you talking about. You did say YHVH is Yeshua. This is exactly what i believe, yet you contradict yourself by turning around and saying that the Father is distinct from the Son and Spirit, and the Spirit is also distinct from both. This means that there is three YHVH in your theology. Please explain this dilemma.
Please begin explaining the most crucial arguments that you continue refusing to address, only then can we proceed.
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
Absolutely not. You are very honest in your arguments, but I see that others who have participated are as well. Everyone is just looking at this quite differently. I see proof on both sides of this very complex issue.
I think you may ignore scripture that non-trinitarians bring to the table. Ignore may too harsh a word.
In any case, everyone here seems to have put real thought AND heart into the argument.
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Everyone uses intellect, and logic in trying to interpret the word of God except when they have some doctrine that is contradictory, nonsensical, illogical and or contradictory, in which case they poo poo anyone who tries to point out thier illogic. Otherwise, in every other doctrine that they have that makes sense, they will always use logic to point out how it is true. people only throw intellect or logic out the window when it affects there doctrine negatively. EVen then they try and use as much intellect or logic as they can in interpreting scripture to support their illogical contradictory doctrine. Logic is only thrown out the window even then when absolutely necessary to hold on to their contradictory beliefs.
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That is much of the problem, people have vested intrests in their beliefs because they spent so much time developing them. but then everyone who disagrees with me would probably say the same about me.
Ignoring scriptures and arguments is universal in CF theology. Some do it more than others, however. No one is completely honest with themselves or others.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
However, some are less dishonest than others. If we were all always completely honest with God, we would all be like Jesus, and we aint. However , knowingly being dishonest is another matter. But who can say when someone is knowingly being dishonest or when the person is just deceived?
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Greetings Simonline,
I think you jump to conclusions concerning my belief by thinking that I base it on "one" verse taken "completely out of context". What you fail to realize is that your answer hurts your position. Why? Because Jesus as a man would not "live because of" any person of the Trinity if he was 100% God and 100% man at the same time. He would live because of his "godly nature" which he supposedly shared with the Father and holy spirit, but not by an individual "person" of that divine nature. Notice too what the Father granted "the Son":
John 5:26 - For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
This "life in himself" was some that was given to the Son by the Father. Again, this does not work in a Trinitarian Godhead because all 3 would have life in themselves, not because of the other 2 persons but because of the divine nature they share. Are you saying that God would have to be given life when taking on another form even if he still keeps his divine nature in that form?
I appreciate the comment, but next time you may want to think about what you say before making statements about people basing belief on one text.
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simonline said:
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
The bible doesn't say that it says God the Father is the only true God, not Jesus.simonline said:
It doesn't say Jesus is a chicken either but he aint a chicken, It doesn't say that Jesus isn't a hog, butJesus isn't a hog, it doesn't say that JEsus isn't an american, but he isn't an american, etcetera etcetera etecetera. It does say he is a man right now.simonline said:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
we got scriptures sayin that God the Father is God and that YHWH is God, we don't got no scripture sayin God the Father is not a man so by your logic we gotta believe God the Father is a man cause no scripture says he aint. which isn't any logic but is illogic supremo.
Trinity isn't truth, it isn't even in the bible. and my take on your posts is that you refuse point blank to prove your doctrine from scripture. all you have are scriptures that you intepret to mean trinity, nothing else.simonline said:
says you not history. history says trinity came about from the council of nicea. your facts are all screwed up.simonline said:
ah what is a proof of t rinity without calling us heretics. heretic is a word invented to scare people into believeing the nonsensical doctrine of the tirnity cause it is so illogical, contradictory, and nonsensiocal that no one would believe it otherwise.simonline said:
no bible proof of trinitysimonline said:
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
Let's just look at the one bible verse 2duck provided. To me, this ONE verse points both ways.
Clearly this points to a unitarian God and rejects the trinity.
What do we do this? One Lord? How is the word Lord used in Hebrew? I equate it with God. Isn't this line saying Jesus is God?
The stumbling block is the word "and". Essentially, the verse is saying there is one God and also one Jesus, whom the scripture refers to as "Lord".
Am I talking in circles?
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The bible says that there is one Lord one faith one baptism. But there are 2 baptisms. the baptism of the Holy spirit and water baptism. there are two Lords, the Lord God and the Lord Jesus, so the question is who is the one Lord. Discounting the argument that 2 beings are one being( as most christians presume0 based on the fact that it is nonsensical to the max.Let's just look at the one bible verse 2duck provided. To me, this ONE verse points both ways.
Clearly this points to a unitarian God and rejects the trinity.
What do we do this? One Lord? How is the word Lord used in Hebrew? I equate it with God. Isn't this line saying Jesus is God?
The stumbling block is the word "and". Essentially, the verse is saying there is one God and also one Jesus, whom the scripture refers to as "Lord".
Am I talking in circles?
Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.
one body is the church,
one spirit is the spirit of God
one Lord is the Lord God based on the context of this passage.
one faith is faith in Jesus which is our commonality faith
one baptism probably refers to water baptism but the emphasis is that we are baptised all the same, in the name of Jesus (this was written prior to the catholic insertion of the spurious reading of matthew 28.19 which has the triatic formula for baptism)
One God, well it states who the one God is The Father.
On the other hand one lord could be refering to the Lord Jesus, or both Jesus and God the Father, in as much as they are one in purpose as testified to in this verse.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jesus gave us the glory of God's own self (which is why we know God personally) that we the church could be one the same way that Jesus and God the Father are one, in purpose or inaction or totally united in everything, except of course our being, I will never be you because Jesus prayed that you and I would be one the same way that he and the father are one, thereforfe Jesus isn't the Father and they are not one being, and "one Lord" cannot mean that jesus and the Father are one LOrd literally but it could mean that they are one figuratively in that God manifests himself to the world in Jesus, whom he indwells.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
so since God was in christ god cannot be christ for that would be nonsense to say god was in and is Christ.
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