Should you believe in the trinity II

[YeshuamySalvation]

The part about my belief that no one else seems to hold to is that Yeshua is the son of God, literally. Everyone else says that Yeshua is a manifestation of God. That's what I do not understand or believe. And words made flesh? That does not make logical sense to me.

Theres alot of troubleshooting for some reason and i ended up lossing my whole post. Let me try again! So how exactly could Yeshua be the son of God if he only resembles God in his image not his flesh for God is not man Num 23:19? Not everyone says that Yeshua is a manifestation of God. Unitarians declare that he is not God and not divine, but that he is literally the son of God. Trinitarians say the same, he was the son but he was divine. It is biblical to say that a multitude of people can be one. Echad means to bring into unity, same goes for the union between husband and wife Gen 2:24. I believe the fact that God dwells outside of time and space pretty much settels it. God can be Three person at once as evident in Yeshua's baptism. This does not mean that God is three person in one. This means that a God as great as the God we serve who is not a person nor confined to space, can simultaneously be the person of the Father, the person of the Son and the person of the Spirit which descended bodily like a dove personified. I believe as a proselyte once said before Yeshua that Mashiyach would be God's Memra. The Aramic Memra means speech. If Yeshua is God's speech become flesh, then it is only in this sense that he was the son of God. God dwells in unapproachable light. Yeshua was man, experienced limitations as men and was confined to time and space. God doesn't always make logical sense to us. That is why it is not about human logic!

 

[Simonline]

I know Tripersonal means three persons indeed. From the way Trinitarians sell it to us, it seems to me that what they mean is that the person of the godhead has double or triple personalities, something like a bipolar per'se. It should be worded tripersonality rather then tripersonal, since tripersonal means three as you correctly pointed out!

Except that YHWH is neither schizophrenic nor bipolar (?!), He is Tri-Personal. The One True God Eternally and Immutably Exists as Three distinct (though not separate) non-corporeal Persons. Unlike schizophrenia, Tri-Personality (at least in YHWH's case) is not a psychological illness or aberation.

It should be worded 'Tri-Personal' because that is exactly how YHWH exists, not 'Tri-personality' because YHWH is NOT a Mono-Personal entity with psychological problems?!

The passage says in the name not in the names.We are not told throughout the brit-hadasha to baptise in the name of the trinity but in the name of Yeshua.

Not true, that's Oneness heresy being superimposed upon the Scriptures. According to the 'Great Commission' (Matt.28:19-20) the Messiah commanded His disciples to 'Go into all the world and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.' and what, according to the Scriptures themselves, is the name [singular] of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Ex.3:14)? The Son, incarnate as a human creature may well be called Jesus of Nazareth but the Father and the Holy Spirit are not called Jesus of Nazareth since they have never incarnated. The only single name which all Three Persons of the One True God ligitimately share is YHWH (Ex.3:14; Jn.8:58)

However, if we are to baptise in three names then what are the names? Is a name ever assigned to the Ruach Hakodesh? No. So what names? The proof trinity text is also missing from the hebrew of the gosple of Matthew. I'm starting to suspect that it may be another addition just like 1 John 5:7.

According to the Scriptures (rather than ecclesiastical tradition), the single name that all Three Persons share (as I have just said) is YHWH. We are commanded to baptize in the name (singular), not names (plural), of the One True God, i.e. YHWH.

Just because the Scriptures never explicitly refer to the Holy Spirit as YHWH does not mean that the Holy Spirit is NOT YHWH (Acts.5:3-4). If the Holy Spirit is God then, by definition, the Holy Spirit is YHWH because God has revealed Himself to Man as YHWH (Ex.3:14; Jn.8:58).

To which 'Trinitarian proof text' are you referring when you unjustifyably declare that it is missing from the gospel of Matthew?

1Jn.5:7 would not be a part of the canon of Scripture unless it were true. YHWH has so superintended the formation of the canon that it includes nothing that is not true (otherwise the entire canon must be rejected wholesale as untrustworthy). It is not for nothing that the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are declared to be the very Word of God.

Ok, now my question is, what truths do those terms convey? If the terms do not appear, then you are arguing from silence.

Not at all. Trinitarianism is definitely not based on arguments from silence?! As I have said before Trinitarianism is not false simply because the theological terminology that was not fully developed until the fourth century (long after all the writers of Scriptures had 'gone the way of all flesh' (i.e. died)) is not itself to be found in the Scriptures, and to try and argue that the Trinity is false on that basis is just facile (i.e. ultra-stupid) in the extreme.

Do the Scriptures teach that there is ONLY One True God (Isa.43:10-13)? YES!

Do the Scriptures teach that the Father is the One True God (Rom.1:7; 2Cor.1:2-3; Eph.4:6 etc.)? YES!

Do the Scriptures teach that the Son is the One True God (Jn.1:1,14; 8:58; Acts.20:28(b); Rom.9:5; Heb.1:8-12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13)? YES!

Do the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is the One True God (Acts.5:3-4)? YES!

Do the Scriptures teach that ONLY the Father is the One True God? NO!

Do the Scriptures teach that ONLY the Son is the One True God? NO!

Do the Scriptures teach that ONLY the Holy Spirit is the One True God? NO!

Therefore, if the Scriptures clearly and unequivocally teach a) that there is ONLY One True God, b) that the Father IS the One True God, c) that the Son IS the One True God and d) that the Holy Spirit IS the One True God then what is the only logical conclusion, based on ALL the evidence of Scripture (and not just some of the evidence cleverly presented in order to make the Bible appear to say something that they in fact do not say)?!

The answer is that there is ONLY One True God who, rather than existing only as Mono-Personal like His corporeal human creatures, actually simultaneously exists as Tri-Personal [i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit] i.e. Trinitarian! This is why the Church has always insisted that God is Trinitarian in Nature rather than Unitarian.

Scripture doesn't say God is Tripersonal so why should i believe it?

Yes, they do (they just don't say it using the term 'Tri-Personal', that's all). So how do the Scriptures say that God is Tri-Personal? By declaring a) that there is only ONE True God, b) that the Father IS that ONE True God; c) that the Son IS that ONE True God and d) that the Holy Spirit IS that ONE True God. When one brings all those separate declarations together (if one is honest in one's assessment?) then one is left with no alternative than to conclude that the ONE True God is Tri-Personal [i.e. Trinitarian] in Nature.

Judaism has never believed nor taught a God that consists of multiple personalities and distinct but inseperable godhead or triad.

That is only true of post-inter-testamental period Rabinical Judaism, not Biblical Judaism (See: The Jewish Trinity by Yoel Natan http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Trinity-Yoel-Natan/dp/1593300689 )

Actually it is a contradiction to say that they are distinct but inseperable, just the fact that they are distinct means they are seperable.

Not so, distinct does not mean separate (otherwise there would be no need for two words meaning exactly the same thing, would there?).

If God consists of three person, then he is limited to space and time and is not omnipresent.

Also not true, since the One True God, as Absolute Reality, is both Infinite and Eternal which means He (even as Tri-Personal) exists without time and/or space. Each and every one of the Divine attributes apply to YHWH as ONE SINGLE ENTITY not to each of the Three Persons individually as Three Distinct Persons of that ONE SINGLE ENTITY (otherwise that would mean '3 of everything' and that would be metaphysically and philosophically absurd because, by definition, there cannot be more than ONE Absolute Reality).

Your belief not only promotes a triad, that is three persons in a godhead.

Not 'in a Godhead' (Divinity is not a gossamic sheath that covers the Three Persons of the One Eternal and Immutable, Tri-Personal Creator God, YHWH)?! but existing AS the Godhead.

It is a deniel of God's omnipresence, and it confines him to time and space as if he were man Jeremiah 23:24; Kings 8:27; Deut 10:14; Matt 10:30; Proverbs 15:3; Psalms 68:33.

Nonsense. You clearly do not comprehend how non-corporeal Divinity exists without time and space in a way that is totally other to the way that His finite corporeal creatures exist within both time and space.

The One True, Tri-Personal God [i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is Omnipresent or He is NOT God (Psalm.139:7-12) since Omnipresence is a pre-requisite of being Divine.

Correct; and he alone stretches out the heavens and all there host has he commanded Isa 45:12. Notice he does it alone, there is no other God beside him.

Then, in the light of Isa.43:10-13; 45:12,18-19 explain Col.1:15-17 (and trust me, it cannot be done without either acknowledging that the One True God is Tri-Personal and not Mono-Personal or dishonestly manipulating the Scriptural text...for which one are you going to go)?!

If God was tripersonal as you insist, then he would be divided which contradicts scripture.

Not true. God is Tri-Personal not Tri-theistic (which is another metaphysical impossibility because, as I have already said there cannot be more that ONE Absolute Reality so each of the three gods of any Tri-theism would have to be finite creatures within a finite tempero-spacial reality (which could also not exist because there would be no Absolute God to create it for them)?!

From what i understand trinitarians believe the father makes up one third of the godhead, the son two thirds. This is confusing and unscriptural.

No. We should not think of each Person of the One Tri-Personal God as being 'one third' of the sum total of the One Tri-Personal God. In the case of God, as Absolute Reality, it doesn't work like that. God is Infinite, not finite. God is not a giant cheese that can be cut into three equal parts (otherwise the three parts would no longer, in and of themselves, be Infinite). To think of each Person as 'one third' of God is unscriptural which is why Trinitarianism (when taught correctly) is not taught in that way.

There is but one God period, who was the Word become flesh.

Yes, there is only ONE TRUE GOD (Deut.6:4 - this is the absolute foundation of any and all Judeo-Christian understanding of God - even as Tri-Personal) but no, God is STILL the Word become flesh. The existence of the Messiah as YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man, is everlasting. He will live forever. He is NOT temporary. The Messiah is still authentically human even whilst He is seated at the right hand of His Father and will return as human at the Second Advent. If the Messiah as Divine is separated from the Messiah as human then it will totally destroy the Messiah. The Messiah is ONE PERSON who absolutely CANNOT be separated, Divine from human nature (though His TWO NATURES CAN be distinguished from each other).

continued...

 

[Simonline]

Coated himself with humanity and died for the sins of the world.

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! The Messiah is NOT 'God in a gorrilla suit'?! The Messiah is God Himself, incarnate as a man. ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (mutually exclusive) WAYS as TWO (distinct but NOT separate) NATURES.

It was YHWH Himself who sacrificed Himself, incarnate as a man, for the sin of His Creation as His own 'Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world' (Acts.20:28(b)) otherwise, YHWH is guilty of murder in unlawfully murdering a person (i.e. Jesus of Nazareth), separate to Himself, for the crimes of other people when He Himself has always declared that murder is wrong and is to receive mandatory capital punishment (Gen.9:6)?!

We can't eat our cake and have it. If God is Unitarian in Nature then, in sacrificing the Messiah, He was committing murder?! However, if, as orthodox Christianity teaches, God is Trinitarian in Nature and that on that basis YHWH has incarnated as a human creature and sacrificed Himself as a sacrifice for His sinful creatures then He has demonstrated the supreme act of Love (1Jn.4:8,16) in sacrificing Himself for His sinful creatures (Acts.20:28(b)).

God can manifest as he wants.

Indeed He can but whilst He can theophanize as often as He wants, He can only incarnate once.

He appeared as a man to Abraham and ate under a tree with the other two angelic man Gen Chapter 18

If indeed they were 'angelic men'? There are those who believe that the three Persons who appeared to Abraham prior to the destruction of Soddom and Gommorrah were the Three Persons of the One Tri-Personal God, YHWH [i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit], though personally, I am not yet fully persuaded either way.

He wrestled with Jacob as a angelic man Gen chapter 32.

Then why did Jacob declare that he had seen God face to face and yet lived (Gen.32:30)? Jacob knew that the 'man' with whom He had wrestled through the night was no creature (angelic or human) but a theophanic visitation (another term that isn't in the Scriptures).

He appeared to Manoa as the angel of the Lord judges chapter 13. He retrieved his Ruach Hakodesh from king Saul and sent an evil spirit from him to torment the wicked king Sam 16:14. God can manifest as he choses for he is not limited as we are. Certainly, his dabar is a manifestation of him. The Son and Holy Spirit are manifestations of God not three persons that make up a godhead, or as trinitarians would say, compound unity.

Of course the Son and the Holy Spirit are manifestations of God, that's because they ARE the ONE TRUE GOD. All three Persons are as Eternal and Immutable as each other because the ONE God Himself [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is both Eternal and Immutable. That means that God does NOT change, EVER (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17). YHWH is both Eternally and Immutably Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

To believe, as you believe, that only the Father is God and therefore only the Father is both Eternal and Immutable and that the Son and the Holy Spirit are mere temporal manifestations of the Father is blasphemous heresy and makes the Messiah out to be a liar (Jn.8:58; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13)?!

Your attacks are against unitarians.

My attacks are against that which is not true (i.e (in this case) Unitarianism).

Launching these attacks against unitarians only derails us from the point that has been established.

With the exception of those heretics who are inimically hostile to the truth and have no intention of ever embracing it but who instead devote all their time and energies to undermining the truth at every opportunity (such as '2ducklow') I try and avoid ad hominem attacks though I will always earnestly contend for the faith once and for al delivered to the saints (Jude.1:3) which will invariably involve both undermining and repudiating that which is false.

I wasn't aware that any point had been established?! Did I miss something?

Trinitarianism derives from paganism. The Roman Catholics bought the babylonian lie that Samiramis, Nimrod and Tammuz consisted of a divine trinity. Samiramis was considered the mother of the god Tammuz. What did the Christians do? They Christianized Samiramis and converted her into Mary the Mother of God. The Trinity is not scriptural but pagan. Ezekiel 8:12-18 describes a meeting of opostate woman worshiping The Babylonian Trinity of Tammuz. From the god Tammuz is where the Trinity derives. You are judging us for not believing a lie.

Oh, do me a favour and spare me the haggard and worn out Unitarian mantra about the supposed 'Pagan origins' of Trinitarianism?! I have already demonstrated the truth of Trinitarianism on the basis of what the Scriptures explicitly declare (so it isn't, as you falsely asserted, 'an argument from silence')

I don't, for it derives from paganism. Scripture tells us not to immitate the pagans.

No it isn't. That's just anti-Trinitarian propaganda oft espoused on the propagandic principle that if you say it long enough and loud enough then eventually everyone will believe it...well I for one will never believe it because it simply isn't true. The truth is that non-Judeo-Christian trinities are demonic counterfeits of the Judeo-Christian original.

Scripture plainly doesn't teach the trinity; there are some though that take God's manifestations to be different persons of his nature.

Actually, as I have demonstrated above, the Scriptures DO teach the Trinity, its just that some people have come to the facile conclusion that they don't, simply because the Trinitarian theological terminology, that was only developed during the fourth century, is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures that were written during the first century (Doh!)?!

If that's so, then God is much more then just tripersonal. If i take Revelation 4:5 and say that the Seven lamps of fire which are the seven Spirits of God should also be added to a divine Godhead that consists of many but remains one, i can say that. Does that make my argument valid? Ofcourse not!

Except that it isn't the 'seven spirits of God' at all its the ONE 'seven-fold' Spirit of God (cf. Isa,11:2) Just as the fruits of the Spirit (Gal.5:22) are the ONE 'nine-fold' Spirit or, as David Pawson says, 'one Spirit with nine different flavours'. These are all obviously different facets of the ONE Spirit...so my Trinitarian argument still stands. YHWH is both Eternal and Immutable so there has ALWAYS been Three Persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit], there ARE Three Persons [Father Son and Holy Spirit] and there ALWAYS will be Three Persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] and since the ONE TRUE GOD is both Eternal and Immutable then that HAS NEVER nor WILL EVER change (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17). In other words, there will NEVER be anything other than Three Persons who are the ONE AND ONLY Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH?!

I agree with almost everything your saying, but am opposed to your last statement where you say that the word was made which he wasn't.

You really don't understand the Incarnation, do you? As the Divine Creator, YHWH, the Son (like the Father and the Spirit) is both Eternal and Immutable and in no way exists as a finite creature (Jn.1:1). However, as an incarnate human creature (Jn.1:14), the Son had to have come into finite temporal existence at a specific point in history (i.e. the incarnation/Virgin Birth). Now the Son is ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO WAYS as TWO NATURES - one the Eternal and Immutable Divine Creator - the other as a temporal and mutable human creature. As a result of the incarnation, the Son/Word, as the Messiah, is now simultaneously both the Divine Creator and a human creature and will remain so forever.

As God, the Son/Word CANNOT possibly have been made (otherwise He can't be both Eternal and Immutable which is a pre-requisite of being the One True God) but as a human creature, the Son/Word CANNOT possibly have NOT been made (otherwise He can't be a human creature because being made as a finite creature is part of what it means to be a human being).

The greek says ginomai which means became not that he was made.

The Incarnation is all about the Divine Son/Word (Jn.1:1) coming into existence as a finite spacio-temporal human creature (Jn.1:14; 1Jn.4:1-3) that means that, as He didn't 'borrow' or 'steal' someone else's human nature, He would have had to have created His own as part of the process of Incarnation. In that sense the Messiah, at least as human, was 'made' (i.e. created) because no human (including the Messiah) is the Divine Creator.

You also say he was made in the mono-personal likeness of his tripersonal creator. I think it is statements as these that has us going in different directions. The Word has no creator for he is the creator of all things.

Not as human he isn't. What you have said here is only true of the Messiah as Divine. The very idea that a finite human creature brought the Creation into existence is preposterous (utterly absurd)?!

I agree, you have just denied the Trinity by stating the above.

How have I denied the Trinitarian Nature of God by asserting that the Messiah is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a human creature (especially since only ONE PERSON [i.e. the Son/Word] has incarnated as a human creature (because, unlike God, humans, as finite creatures, being incapable of existing as Tri-Personal, are strictly Mono-Personal in Nature)?!

I don't know [to]what Trinity you are refering

The original Judeo-Christian one, of course (since all non-Judeo-Christian trinities are Satanic counterfeits of the original)?!

in your previous statement you denied it unknowingly.

No, I didn't. You can assert that I did but actually demonstrating that your assertion is true (Q.E.D.) is something completely different?!

You've become like one of us, a heretical. We are only considered Heretical's because we refuse to believe in the mother of the incarnate God Tammuz who is three in one with Nimrod and the child.

The term is 'heretic'. And you are a heretic not because you refuse to believe 'in the mother of the incarnate [god], Tammuz, who is three in one with Nimrod and the child' (?!) but because you refuse to believe the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that declare that the One True God, YHWH, simultaneously exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and does so both Eternally and Immutably.

As far as Judeo-Christianity is concerned that is non-negotiable.

Actually, i am not the one using intellect. It is you who is looking for hundreds of ways to defend your escatalogy.

The trinitarian Nature of God and the Incarnation are Theology, not eschatology (please don't use 'big words' if you don't know what they mean)? There is nothing wrong with using intellect since God has given us intellect and He expects us to worship Him with all our minds as well as with all our hearts, souls and strength (Matt.22:37-38) The human intellect is not necessarily contrary to the things of the Spirit.

I am doing as the Jews in berea did, by putting your escatalogy to the biblical test.

If only that were true?! The Truth is that you cannot see the truth because, like all heretics, you are superimposing your own theological and metaphysical presuppositions onto the Scriptures rather than allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

Like I said, The Trinitarian Nature of YHWH and His incarnation as the Messiah is theology propper and NOT eschatology [Eschaton - the End / Eschatology - study of the End Times].

It is not passing it by the way, since you have utterly failed to show us from scripture where does it say God is Tripersonal or the Holy Trinity. Scripture doesn't even imply what you are proposing to us!

Once again, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

Hey Simonline, thanks for bringing up the 'attack anyone personally who denys the trinity" proof of Trinity. It's, from a nontrinitarian perspectif, an excellent reason, though not the main one, for denying the trinity.

With the exception of those heretics who are inimically hostile to the truth and have no intention of ever embracing it but who instead devote all their time and energies to undermining the truth at every opportunity (such as '2ducklow') I try and avoid ad hominem attacks though I will always earnestly contend for the faith once and for al delivered to the saints (Jude.1:3) which will invariably involve both undermining and repudiating that which is false.

I wasn't aware that any point had been established?! Did I miss something?

heretic and unorthodox are dirty words IMO. THey are buzz words used so often in the past to burn and torture people to death, such as servetus. But then I recall you saying something t o the effect that the inquisition was an enlightened age and that it would be good if we should return to those days.
Attacking people personally in defence of trinity is no different than what John Calvin did with Servetus's non trinitarianism.

"To rescue Servetus from his heresies, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his 'Institutes of the Christian Religion,' which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's [sic] pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."(6)​

"Convicted of heresy by the Roman Catholic authorities, Servetus escaped the death penalty by a prison break. Heading for Italy, Servetus unaccountably stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers. He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin."(7)​

In the course of his flight from Vienne, Servetus stopped in Geneva and made the mistake of attending a sermon by Calvin. He was recognized and arrested after the service.(8)​

"Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death."(9)​

From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:

" ... in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities."(10)​

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm


Attacking people personally for rejecting the trinity is what John calvin did. Same ball game just minor leagues here in CF but major leagues in the inquisition days.

 

[2ducklow]

Here is another good reason for not believing the Trinity.

[SIZE=+2]WHY WE BELIEVE IN ONE GOD AND
REJECT THE TRINITY THEORY [/SIZE]​

It was the Trinity Doctrine that has brought much controversy and confusion to the world. When it was introduced to the Church of Alexandria in Egypt, it brought about the great Arian controversy in which thousands gave their lives rather than accept this doctrine. Keep in mind that the Bible declares that "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." 1 Cor. 14:33. Fighting, confusion, and killing is not Gods way of converting people to believe in a Biblical doctrine. However; this is what early Trinitarian advocates did. "The day was to come when the Nicene (Trinitarian) party won out completely and then the emperors, who wished to prevent any more quarrels, decreed that one who denied the Trinity should be put to death. This law was later to be used against the Unitarians (or One God, Oneness people). At the earlier time; however, the bishops were horrified that truth (or the Trinity) should be defended by the shedding of blood." (or murder). Also, in the laws written and compiled by Emperor Justinian (called the code of Justinian) we find that the practice of murdering all non-Trinitarians continued well past A.D. 550. "The code says that any who refuse to believe in the Trinity and any who repeat baptism shall be put to death." The Church of our Fathers by R. H.. Bainton page 46, and 63. Think of it, a little helpless six year old girl could be beaten by Knights, and Clergymen and put to a brutal death simply because she was not a Trinitarian! Many modern day Trinitarians would be shocked of their Trinity Doctrine's true origin and history. The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill." EX 20:13, the spirit of the Early Trinitarian founders and forefathers is not of Christ. This site had provided the book "Foxes Book of Martyrs" for you to verify the martyrs of Christ. You will observe how the Popes of Rome persecuted any and all Oneness believers who stood fast to the One God faith:
Foxes Book of Martyrs - by John Fox (or Foxe) - 1563 ​

http://www.thunderministries.com/history/triad/onlyone.html

killing people for doctrine is dispicable.

​

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Except that YHWH is neither schizophrenic nor bipolar (?!), He is Tri-Personal. The One True God Eternally and Immutably Exists as Three distinct (though not separate) non-corporeal Persons. Unlike schizophrenia, Tri-Personality (at least in YHWH's case) is not a psychological illness or aberation.

Lots of shooting up in the air but no text. Can you prove from a biblical stand point that God exists in three distinct non corporeal persons? Can you find just one text that defines God as existing in three distinct non-corporeal persons? The fact that they are distinct screams out polytheism for they are different and separate. In Judaism this is unheard of; only in Christianity is this normal.

It should be worded 'Tri-Personal' because that is exactly how YHWH exists, not 'Tri-personality' because YHWH is NOT a Mono-Personal entity with psychological problems?!

Nobody understands what you mean by Trinpersonal, for you continue to say that the divine nature is distinct or different but not separate. If they are distinct then they are separable. I consider Mormons a lot more honest in there explanation of what they mean when they say three deities can actually be one, only in purpose. What you are saying is that three deities exist, but they cannot be separated. This is not Monotheism, as much as you'd like to explain it away with intellect.

Not true, that's Oneness heresy being superimposed upon the Scriptures. According to the 'Great Commission' (Matt.28:19-20) the Messiah commanded His disciples to 'Go into all the world and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.' and what, according to the Scriptures themselves, is the name [singular] of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Ex.3:14)?

And did they ever baptize in those names or in the name of Yeshua > Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27. I agree that Yeshua is the same YHVH as this is explicitly clear in Isa 40:3. But there is no such instance in scripture where any of his disciples actually baptized in those names as you are insisting. This was added later to support the notion that God lives as three different persons! It does not support it for it does not say the names, but the name. It is in his name that the disciples baptized not in the names of the three deities. Rome bought the Babylonian lie and sold it to the Christians.

The Son, incarnate as a human creature may well be called Jesus of Nazareth but the Father and the Holy Spirit are not called Jesus of Nazareth since they have never incarnated. The only single name which all Three Persons of the One True God ligitimately share is YHWH (Ex.3:14; Jn.8:58)

By saying they, you have already stated you are polytheist unknowingly, for God is never refer to in scripture as they. God is never said to share names with anyone either, so, this is more of your speculation which you are requiring important for our salvation. I am not told in scripture that i must believe Simonlines speculations and conjectures to merit salvation. It is you who is imposing this on others. The Father, Son and the Spirit are simultaneously the same one God and cannot be divided nor distinct nor separate. It is God himself who manifests in those ways while remaining singular, not that he consists of three different deities. Why would God need to split himself like you say into three distinct not separate deities? Is he not almighty? Why not just accept that he can do it because he is almighty rather then using man made terms imposed on others as divine truths?

According to the Scriptures (rather than ecclesiastical tradition), the single name that all Three Persons share (as I have just said) is YHWH. We are commanded to baptize in the name (singular), not names (plural), of the One True God, i.e. YHWH.

There is no three persons for God is not a person. He became a person through the manifestation of his saying, born of a virgin, he Tabernacled and dwelt among us. There is just no need to split God's nature into three distinct individual.

Just because the Scriptures never explicitly refer to the Holy Spirit as YHWH does not mean that the Holy Spirit is NOT YHWH (Acts.5:3-4). If the Holy Spirit is God then, by definition, the Holy Spirit is YHWH because God has revealed Himself to Man as YHWH (Ex.3:14; Jn.8:58).

I agree that the Holy Spirit is Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey. I just don't agree with your concept that he is the result of some unity different from God. He is God because God works in plural manifestations, he is not a different person.

To which 'Trinitarian proof text' are you referring when you unjustifyably declare that it is missing from the gospel of Matthew?

There are no Trinitarian text in scripture. It is men who have tampered with God's word by adding to it while ignoring that the almighty has already stated not to add nor diminish from his sayings in the Torah Deut 4:2; Deut 12:32; Rev 22:18-19.

1Jn.5:7 would not be a part of the canon of Scripture unless it were true. YHWH has so superintended the formation of the canon that it includes nothing that is not true (otherwise the entire canon must be rejected wholesale as untrustworthy). It is not for nothing that the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are declared to be the very Word of God.

1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The passage is absent from all the Greek mss. known, accept for four of them. And these four contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a recension of the Latin Vulgate. Furthermore, the passage is not mentioned by any of the church Fathers. Hence, its a addition that does not appear in the Geek manuscripts until the version of the Latin Acts of the Lateran Council in the 1215.

Not at all. Trinitarianism is definitely not based on arguments from silence?! As I have said before Trinitarianism is not false simply because the theological terminology that was not fully developed until the fourth century

The New Testament authors never argued nor gave any salvific importance to the Trinitarian dogma, so why should you?

Do the Scriptures teach that there is ONLY One True God (Isa.43:10-13)? YES!

Agree!

Do the Scriptures teach that the Father is the One True God (Rom.1:7; 2Cor.1:2-3; Eph.4:6 etc.)? YES!

Of-course.

Do the Scriptures teach that the Son is the One True God (Jn.1:1,14; 8:58; Acts.20:28(b); Rom.9:5; Heb.1:8-12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13)? YES!

Agree to the fullest.

Do the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is the One True God (Acts.5:3-4)? YES!

Correct.

Do the Scriptures teach that ONLY the Father is the One True God? NO!

The Term Father is as i've mentioned before, a Rabbinical Term which shows appreciation for God. God is not a literal human Father. Yeshua is simultaneously Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. He is YHVH!

Do the Scriptures teach that ONLY the Son is the One True God? NO!

Yes > John 1:1-14; John 20:28.

Do the Scriptures teach that ONLY the Holy Spirit is the One True God? NO!

Yes, because he is God's Spirit not a distinct entity.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Therefore, if the Scriptures clearly and unequivocally teach a) that there is ONLY One True God, b) that the Father IS the One True God, c) that the Son IS the One True God and d) that the Holy Spirit IS the One True God then what is the only logical conclusion, based on ALL the evidence of Scripture (and not just some of the evidence cleverly presented in order to make the Bible appear to say something that they in fact do not say)?!

Wow, i've been trying t make this fit for more then half and hour, takes two post i guess. If the Spirit is the one true God and the same is true of the Father and Son, then the most logical conclusion is that it is God manifesting himself as the person of the Son, Father and Spirit and not three distinct entities.

The answer is that there is ONLY One True God who, rather than existing only as Mono-Personal like His corporeal human creatures, actually simultaneously exists as Tri-Personal [i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit] i.e. Trinitarian! This is why the Church has always insisted that God is Trinitarian in Nature rather than Unitarian.

And where many have fallen from grace is when they implement these dogmas as important for an individuals salvation.

Yes, they do (they just don't say it using the term 'Tri-Personal', that's all). So how do the Scriptures say that God is Tri-Personal? By declaring a) that there is only ONE True God, b) that the Father IS that ONE True God; c) that the Son IS that ONE True God and d) that the Holy Spirit IS that ONE True God. When one brings all those separate declarations together (if one is honest in one's assessment?) then one is left with no alternative than to conclude that the ONE True God is Tri-Personal [i.e. Trinitarian] in Nature.

Says who? It is you who believes that the above is the only logical conclusions!

That is only true of post-inter-testamental period Rabinical Judaism, not Biblical Judaism (See: The Jewish Trinity by Yoel Natan http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Trinity-Yoel-Natan/dp/1593300689 )

Interesting. Can you provide me with a PDF file of the whole book it. If not i guess i'll just buy it. In anycase, i done my home work when it comes to Jewish history and have never found any support of a Jewish Trinity ever historically speaking. One of the oldest or perhaps the oldest Trinity is that of the Babylonians and the reincarnate Nimrod as Tammuz.

Not so, distinct does not mean separate (otherwise there would be no need for two words meaning exactly the same thing, would there?).

Distinct >
1: distinguishable to the eye or mind as discrete : separate <a distinct cultural group> <teaching as distinct from research> 2: presenting a clear unmistakable impression <a neat distinct handwriting>3archaic : notably decorated4 a: notable <a distinct contribution to scholarship> b: readily and unmistakably apprehended <a distinct possibility of snow> <a distinct British accent>
— dis·tinct·ly \-&#712;sti&#331;(k)-tl&#275;, -&#712;sti&#331;-kl&#275;\ adverb
— dis·tinct·ness \-&#712;sti&#331;(k)t-n&#601;s, -&#712;sti&#331;k-n&#601;s\ noun
synonyms distinct, separate, discrete mean not being each and every one the same. distinct indicates that something is distinguished by the mind or eye as being apart or different from others <two distinct versions>. separate often stresses lack of connection or a difference in identity between two things <separate rooms>. discrete strongly emphasizes individuality and lack of connection <broke the job down into discrete stages>.
synonyms see in addition evident

Distinct means different but not disconnected where as separate means complete disconnection. You said Yeshua is YHVH but distinct, how exactly does that happen? How can he be different and the same?

Also not true, since the One True God, as Absolute Reality, is both Infinite and Eternal which means He (even as Tri-Personal) exists without time and/or space. Each and every one of the Divine attributes apply to YHWH as ONE SINGLE ENTITY not to each of the Three Persons individually as Three Distinct Persons of that ONE SINGLE ENTITY.

If he is a person, then he lives subjected to space and time.

Nonsense. You clearly do not comprehend how non-corporeal Divinity exists without time and space in a way that is totally other to the way that His finite corporeal creatures exist within both time and space.

Neither do you, for that cannot be explained by your intellect nor mine.

Then, in the light of Isa.43:10-13; 45:12,18-19 explain Col.1:15-17 (and trust me, it cannot be done without either acknowledging that the One True God is Tri-Personal and not Mono-Personal or dishonestly manipulating the Scriptural text...for which one are you going to go)?!

The above text do not indicate God is made up of three different deities. Col 1:15-17 demonstrates that Yeshua is God the divine creator, and that he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Not true. God is Tri-Personal not Tri-theistic (which is another metaphysical impossibility because, as I have already said there cannot be more that ONE Absolute Reality so each of the three gods of any Tri-theism would have to be finite creatures within a finite tempero-spacial reality!

Ok, Tripersonal is three, correct? Distinct is different correct? So God is three different right?

No. We should not think of each Person of the One Tri-Personal God as being 'one third' of the sum total of the One Tri-Personal God. In the case of God, as Absolute Reality, it doesn't work like that. God is Infinite, not finite. God is not a giant cheese that can be cut into three equal parts (otherwise the three parts would no longer, in and of themselves, be Infinite). .

Well if he has to split himself into three different person to complete his work then he is finite. For an infinite being has no need whatsoever of dividing himself into different but not separate deities, whatever that may mean.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! The Messiah is NOT 'God in a gorrilla suit'?! The Messiah is God Himself, incarnate as a man. ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (mutually exclusive) WAYS as TWO (distinct but NOT separate) NATURES.

I have never given thought to two different but not separate natures. This leads me to conjecture an idea that might have merit, it explains perhaps how God can surrender his life as the Son and Simultaneously never cease to be immortal omnipresent Spirit.

It was YHWH Himself who sacrificed Himself, incarnate as a man, for the sin of His Creation as His own 'Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world' (Acts.20:28(b))

I agree completely.

otherwise, YHWH is guilty of murder in unlawfully murdering a person (i.e. Jesus of Nazareth), separate to Himself, for the crimes of other people when He Himself has always declared that murder is wrong and is to receive mandatory capital punishment (Gen.9:6)?!

We agree here as well.

We can't eat our cake and have it. If God is Unitarian in Nature then, in sacrificing the Messiah, He was committing murder?! However, if, as orthodox Christianity teaches, God is Trinitarian in Nature and that on that basis YHWH has incarnated as a human creature and sacrificed Himself as a sacrifice for His sinful creatures then He has demonstrated the supreme act of Love (1Jn.4:8,16) in sacrificing Himself for His sinful creatures (Acts.20:28(b)).

We don't have to say there is a Trinity to believe that YHVH sacrificed himself.

If indeed they were 'angelic men'? There are those who believe that the three Persons who appeared to Abraham prior to the destruction of Soddom and Gommorrah were the Three Persons of the One Tri-Personal God, YHWH [i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit], though personally, I am not yet fully persuaded either way.

Read the whole context, one of the men was the Lord which manifested as an Ish man.

Then why did Jacob declare that he had seen God face to face and yet lived (Gen.32:30)? Jacob knew that the 'man' with whom He had wrestled through the night was no creature (angelic or human) but a theophanic visitation (another term that isn't in the Scriptures).

Jacob does not say is some hologram or a theophonic manifestation. The Hebrew says Ish for man; God manifested in the form of a man and wrestled with Jacob.

Of course the Son and the Holy Spirit are manifestations of God, that's because they ARE the ONE TRUE GOD. All three Persons are as Eternal and Immutable as each other because the ONE God Himself [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is both Eternal and Immutable. That means that God does NOT change, EVER (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17). YHWH is both Eternally and Immutably Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

There are no three persons; and if he is eternally Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then these are just manifestations and not a man made Trinitarian dogma that makes three different deities and one reality. Whatever that may mean!

To believe, as you believe, that only the Father is God and therefore only the Father is both Eternal and Immutable and that the Son and the Holy Spirit are mere temporal manifestations of the Father is blasphemous heresy and makes the Messiah out to be a liar (Jn.8:58; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13)?!

Actually, it is blasphemous to divide God into three deities, not to proclaim that God is one as stated in the Shema Devarim 6:4.

I never said that only the title of Father is God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the same exact being not three distinct but not separate deities.

My attacks are against that which is not true (i.e (in this case) Unitarianism).

Well, you are violating scripture. We are called to defend scripture not attack. That is the meaning of God's word being sharper then a two edged sword. It's purpose is to defend not attack! No Unitarian is ever going to be persuaded by your attacks.

With the exception of those heretics who are inimically hostile to the truth and have no intention of ever embracing it but who instead devote all their time and energies to undermining the truth at every opportunity (such as '2ducklow') I try and avoid ad hominem attacks though I will always earnestly contend for the faith once and for al delivered to the saints (Jude.1:3) which will invariably involve both undermining and repudiating that which is false.

Please recant from these baseless attacks against 2 Ducklow. This is a severe transgression not only in Judaism but in Scripture called Lashonhara or evil tongue. If you have an actual argument please present it.

 

[Simonline]

Hey Simonline, thanks for bringing up the 'attack anyone personally who denys the trinity" proof of Trinity. It's, from a nontrinitarian perspectif, an excellent reason, though not the main one, for denying the trinity.


heretic and unorthodox are dirty words IMO. THey are buzz words used so often in the past to burn and torture people to death, such as servetus. But then I recall you saying something t o the effect that the inquisition was an enlightened age and that it would be good if we should return to those days.
Attacking people personally in defence of trinity is no different than what John Calvin did with Servetus's non trinitarianism.


http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm


Attacking people personally for rejecting the trinity is what John calvin did. Same ball game just minor leagues here in CF but major leagues in the inquisition days.

No comment

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Here is another good reason for not believing the Trinity.
[/b]
http://www.thunderministries.com/history/triad/onlyone.html

killing people for doctrine is dispicable.

[/indent]

No comment

Simonline.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Why the "no comment"? It does nothing to further the conversation?

 

[Simonline]

Lots of shooting up in the air but no text. Can you prove from a biblical stand point that God exists in three distinct non corporeal persons? Can you find just one text that defines God as existing in three distinct non-corporeal persons? The fact that they are distinct screams out polytheism for they are different and separate. In Judaism this is unheard of; only in Christianity is this normal.

I have already proven, solely on the basis of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, that the One True God simultaneously exists as Three distinct (not separate) non-corporeal (Jn.4:24) Persons?! The fact that the Scriptures do not specifically use the words 'Three, distinct, non-corporeal Persons' does not mean that God does not simultaneously exist as Three, distinct non-corporeal Persons (as I have already demonstrated) and the fact that, like a dog to its vomit, you keep going back to the same facile (i.e. ultra stupid) argument about Trinitarianism being invalid because the text of the Judeo-Scriptures that were completed by the end of the first centry AD/CE does not contain the precise theological terminology that was not developed until the 4th century AD/CE shows that, just like '2ducklow', you too have been indoctrinated by a heretical cult to such an extent that you are completely out of touch with reality.

The validity of the Trinitiarian doctrine is based upon what the Scriptures do say (see my previous few posts), not on what they don't say!

If, like '2ducklow', you're just going to repeatedly deny the blatantly obvious then there is no point in this discussion/debate continuing because you, like '2ducklow', are evidently incapable of participating in any reasoned discussion/debate?!

Nobody understands what you mean by Trinpersonal, for you continue to say that the divine nature is distinct or different but not separate. If they are distinct then they are separable. I consider Mormons a lot more honest in there explanation of what they mean when they say three deities can actually be one, only in purpose. What you are saying is that three deities exist, but they cannot be separated. This is not Monotheism, as much as you'd like to explain it away with intellect.

You need to pay much more careful attention to what I do say because I have never said that the Divine Nature is either distinct or separate. What I have always said is that the Three Persons of the ONE Tri-Personal, YHWH are distinct from each other but they CANNOT be separate from each other because there CANNOT BE more than ONE Absolute Reality.

The terms 'distinct' and 'separate' DO NOT mean the same thing (otherwise, why have two different words meaning exactly the same thing)? The very fact that there are two terms rather than just one term means that there must be a difference (even a subtle difference) between the two terms. If you cannot recognise that fact then, like '2ducklow' there is just no hope for you in any serious discussion/debate?!

Absolute Reality, by definition, CANNOT be separated. There can ONLY BE ONE ABSOLUTE REALITY.

Mormonism is NOT metaphysically honest. Mormons are as deceived as you are, only in a different way. Mormonism CANNOT explain the origins of their theological/metaphysical system. Mormons CANNOT tell you how their system ultimately started. They can ONLY tell you how their system 'is' once it is up and running but they CANNOT explain how their system all began in the first place?! Mormonistic polytheism is as metaphysically absurd as the Gnostic bi-theism of Arianism/ the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and Oneness Theology.

Trinitarianism is strictly Monotheistic (Deut.6:4). There is ONLY ONE GOD (existing as Three distinct Persons but still only one God, not three gods). When refering to YHWH we use first person teminology (i.e. 'He', not 'They') because He is only One God but when referring to the Three Persons who are the One God we use plural pronouns (i.e. 'They', not 'He' because YHWH is Tri-Personal, not Mono-Personal.

And did they ever baptize in those names or in the name of Yeshua > Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27. I agree that Yeshua is the same YHVH as this is explicitly clear in Isa 40:3. But there is no such instance in scripture where any of his disciples actually baptized in those names as you are insisting. This was added later to support the notion that God lives as three different persons! It does not support it for it does not say the names, but the name. It is in his name that the disciples baptized not in the names of the three deities. Rome bought the Babylonian lie and sold it to the Christians.

Then how in the name of YHWH can you deny that YHWH is essentially Trinitarian in Nature rather than Unitarian?! If the Scriptures teach that YHWH is Eternal and Immutable and He Eternally and Immutably exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then how can He NOT be Trinitarian?

The single name in which the apostles baptized their disciples (in obedience to the Messiah's command (Matt.28:19) was the single name of their single God (i.e. YHWH) of whom the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, was the human incarnation. The apostles did not baptize in the name of 'the Father', 'the Son' or 'the Holy Spirit' or in the human name of 'Jesus of Nazareth'. They baptized in the single Divine Name of their God - YHWH!

By saying they, you have already stated you are polytheist unknowingly, for God is never refer to in scripture as they. God is never said to share names with anyone either, so, this is more of your speculation which you are requiring important for our salvation.

That's because God is singular, not plural (there CANNOT be more than ONE Absolute Reality) but He is also Tri-Personal [i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit]. 'They' refers to the Three Persons who are the One God. The One God (because He is singular) is always 'He', not 'They'. The Three Persons are NOT three separate (and therefore finite) gods, like Mormonism, They are the Three distinct (not separate) Persons of the ONE AND ONLY Tri-Personal God who is Absolute Reality. YHWH does not share His Identity with anyone who is not Absolute Reality but the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ARE (both individually and collectively) Absolute Reality.

It is not specualtion at all. It is the truth articulated on the basis of what the Scriptures actually say (as I have already demonstrated and you have already ignored (again)) and it is fundamental to salvation. If you are trusting in a god who does not actually exist (i.e. a Unitarian god) then you are still dead in your trespasses and sins and heading for the everlasting Lake of Fire as a child of wrath.

I am not told in scripture that i must believe Simonlines speculations and conjectures to merit salvation.

No, you are commanded to trust in the One True God who actually exists (as revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) and not simply a heretical figment of unregenerate human imagination.

It is you who is imposing this on others.

I think you will find (when you finally stand before the Messiah in judgment), that it is YHWH Himself who has commanded faith in the Absolute Reality of His Existence as Tri-Personal, since YHWH only deals in Truth, not falsehood (i.e. a Unitarian idol made in the likeness of sinful human creatures)?!

The Father, Son and the Spirit are simultaneously the same one God and cannot be divided nor distinct nor separate.

Can I cite this as the most imbecilic quote of the week (if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be differentiated from each other (which is what it means to be 'distinct'), as you are actually arguing (without, I might add, actually understanding what it is that you are arguing), then there CANNOT be a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, only 'a Father', or 'a Son' or 'a Holy Spirit')?!

How can the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all be 'the same one God' (which is exactly what I am arguing) and yet, not be distinct (not separate) from each other?!

It is God himself who manifests in those ways while remaining singular, not that he consists of three different deities.

Who said that the One God is 'three different deities'?! Trinitarianism is NOT Tri-theism (though you obviously can't tell the difference between the two)! Furthermore, the Three Persons of the One True God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] are not just 'manifestations' of the One God, they are the fundamental essence of the One True God and are so both Eternally and Immutably.

Why would God need to split himself like you say into three distinct not separate deities?

God isn't 'split into three distinct deities' (that's Tri-theism which is metaphysically impossible, which is why Tri-theism is both heretical and absurd). As I have already said, orthodox Christianity is Trinitarian, not Tri-theistic.

You haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you?!

Is he not almighty? Why not just accept that he can do it because he is almighty rather then using man made terms imposed on others as divine truths?

Of course YHWH is 'Almighty'. As Absolute Reality, YHWH CANNOT be anything other than 'Almighty'!

The man-made terminology has been painstakingly developed by the orthodox Christian Church in order to encapsulate and articulate the very complex and difficult truths that YHWH has revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures about His own existence as God and His Incarnation as a human creature. Those man-made terms (such as Trinitarian/Tri-Personal, hypostatic union, etc.) are the best human articulation of Divinely revealed truth and as such are completely valid as Christian doctrine and dogma (especially for the purpose of educating and encouraging the faithful and refuting heresy).

continued...

 

[Simonline]

Lots of shooting up in the air but no text. Can you prove from a biblical stand point that God exists in three distinct non corporeal persons? Can you find just one text that defines God as existing in three distinct non-corporeal persons? The fact that they are distinct screams out polytheism for they are different and separate. In Judaism this is unheard of; only in Christianity is this normal.

I have already proven, solely on the basis of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, that the One True God simultaneously exists as Three distinct (not separate) non-corporeal (Jn.4:24) Persons?! The fact that the Scriptures do not specifically use the words 'Three, distinct, non-corporeal Persons' does not mean that God does not simultaneously exist as Three, distinct non-corporeal Persons (as I have already demonstrated) and the fact that, like a dog to its vomit, you keep going back to the same facile (i.e. ultra stupid) argument about Trinitarianism being invalid because the text of the Judeo-Scriptures that were completed by the end of the first centry AD/CE does not contain the precise theological terminology that was not developed until the 4th century AD/CE shows that, just like '2ducklow', you too have been indoctrinated by a heretical cult to such an extent that you are completely out of touch with reality.

The validity of the Trinitiarian doctrine is based upon what the Scriptures do say (see my previous few posts), not on what they don't say!

If, like '2ducklow', you're just going to repeatedly deny the blatantly obvious then there is no point in this discussion/debate continuing because you, like '2ducklow', are evidently incapable of participating in any reasoned discussion/debate?!

Nobody understands what you mean by Trinpersonal, for you continue to say that the divine nature is distinct or different but not separate. If they are distinct then they are separable. I consider Mormons a lot more honest in there explanation of what they mean when they say three deities can actually be one, only in purpose. What you are saying is that three deities exist, but they cannot be separated. This is not Monotheism, as much as you'd like to explain it away with intellect.

You need to pay much more careful attention to what I do say because I have never said that the Divine Nature is either distinct or separate. What I have always said is that the Three Persons of the ONE Tri-Personal, YHWH are distinct from each other but they CANNOT be separate from each other because there CANNOT BE more than ONE Absolute Reality.

The terms 'distinct' and 'separate' DO NOT mean the same thing (otherwise, why have two different words meaning exactly the same thing)? The very fact that there are two terms rather than just one term means that there must be a difference (even a subtle difference) between the two terms. If you cannot recognise that fact then, like '2ducklow' there is just no hope for you in any serious discussion/debate?!

Absolute Reality, by definition, CANNOT be separated. There can ONLY BE ONE ABSOLUTE REALITY.

Mormonism is NOT metaphysically honest. Mormons are as deceived as you are, only in a different way. Mormonism CANNOT explain the origins of their theological/metaphysical system. Mormons CANNOT tell you how their system ultimately started. They can ONLY tell you how their system 'is' once it is up and running but they CANNOT explain how their system all began in the first place?! Mormonistic polytheism is as metaphysically absurd as the Gnostic bi-theism of Arianism/ the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and Oneness Theology.

Trinitarianism is strictly Monotheistic (Deut.6:4). There is ONLY ONE GOD (existing as Three distinct Persons but still only one God, not three gods). When refering to YHWH we use first person teminology (i.e. 'He', not 'They') because He is only One God but when referring to the Three Persons who are the One God we use plural pronouns (i.e. 'They', not 'He' because YHWH is Tri-Personal, not Mono-Personal.

And did they ever baptize in those names or in the name of Yeshua > Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27. I agree that Yeshua is the same YHVH as this is explicitly clear in Isa 40:3. But there is no such instance in scripture where any of his disciples actually baptized in those names as you are insisting. This was added later to support the notion that God lives as three different persons! It does not support it for it does not say the names, but the name. It is in his name that the disciples baptized not in the names of the three deities. Rome bought the Babylonian lie and sold it to the Christians.

Then how in the name of YHWH can you deny that YHWH is essentially Trinitarian in Nature rather than Unitarian?! If the Scriptures teach that YHWH is Eternal and Immutable and He Eternally and Immutably exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then how can He NOT be Trinitarian?

The single name in which the apostles baptized their disciples (in obedience to the Messiah's command (Matt.28:19) was the single name of their single God (i.e. YHWH) of whom the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, was the human incarnation. The apostles did not baptize in the name of 'the Father', 'the Son' or 'the Holy Spirit' or in the human name of 'Jesus of Nazareth'. They baptized in the single Divine Name of their God - YHWH!

By saying they, you have already stated you are polytheist unknowingly, for God is never refer to in scripture as they. God is never said to share names with anyone either, so, this is more of your speculation which you are requiring important for our salvation.

That's because God is singular, not plural (there CANNOT be more than ONE Absolute Reality) but He is also Tri-Personal [i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit]. 'They' refers to the Three Persons who are the One God. The One God (because He is singular) is always 'He', not 'They'. The Three Persons are NOT three separate (and therefore finite) gods, like Mormonism, They are the Three distinct (not separate) Persons of the ONE AND ONLY Tri-Personal God who is Absolute Reality. YHWH does not share His Identity with anyone who is not Absolute Reality but the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ARE (both individually and collectively) Absolute Reality.

It is not specualtion at all. It is the truth articulated on the basis of what the Scriptures actually say (as I have already demonstrated and you have already ignored (again)) and it is fundamental to salvation. If you are trusting in a god who does not actually exist (i.e. a Unitarian god) then you are still dead in your trespasses and sins and heading for the everlasting Lake of Fire as a child of wrath.

I am not told in scripture that i must believe Simonlines speculations and conjectures to merit salvation.

No, you are commanded to trust in the One True God who actually exists (as revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) and not simply a heretical figment of unregenerate human imagination.

It is you who is imposing this on others.

I think you will find (when you finally stand before the Messiah in judgment), that it is YHWH Himself who has commanded faith in the Absolute Reality of His Existence as Tri-Personal, since YHWH only deals in Truth, not falsehood (i.e. a Unitarian idol made in the likeness of sinful human creatures)?!

The Father, Son and the Spirit are simultaneously the same one God and cannot be divided nor distinct nor separate.

Can I cite this as the most imbecilic quote of the week (if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be differentiated from each other (which is what it means to be 'distinct'), as you are actually arguing (without, I might add, actually understanding what it is that you are arguing), then there CANNOT be a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, only 'a Father', or 'a Son' or 'a Holy Spirit')?!

How can the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all be 'the same one God' (which is exactly what I am arguing) and yet, not be distinct (not separate) from each other?!

It is God himself who manifests in those ways while remaining singular, not that he consists of three different deities.

Who said that the One God is 'three different deities'?! Trinitarianism is NOT Tri-theism (though you obviously can't tell the difference between the two)! Furthermore, the Three Persons of the One True God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] are not just 'manifestations' of the One God, they are the fundamental essence of the One True God and are so both Eternally and Immutably.

continued...

 

[Simonline]

Why would God need to split himself like you say into three distinct not separate deities?

God isn't 'split into three distinct deities' (that's Tri-theism which is metaphysically impossible, which is why Tri-theism is both heretical and absurd). As I have already said, orthodox Christianity is Trinitarian, not Tri-theistic.

[Staff Edit]

Is he not almighty? Why not just accept that he can do it because he is almighty rather then using man made terms imposed on others as divine truths?

Of course YHWH is 'Almighty'. As Absolute Reality, YHWH CANNOT be anything other than 'Almighty'!

The man-made terminology has been painstakingly developed by the orthodox Christian Church in order to encapsulate and articulate the very complex and difficult truths that YHWH has revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures about His own existence as God and His Incarnation as a human creature. Those man-made terms (such as Trinitarian/Tri-Personal, hypostatic union, etc.) are the best human articulation of Divinely revealed truth and as such are completely valid as Christian doctrine and dogma (especially for the purpose of educating and encouraging the faithful and refuting heresy).

There is no three persons for God is not a person. He became a person through the manifestation of his saying, born of a virgin, he Tabernacled and dwelt among us.

[Staff Edit]

If God is not a 'Person' then how could God as an 'It' bring the Creation itself into existence?!

How could a non-Personal God say 'Let there be light!' etc.?!

Furthermore, how could all humans (who must also be non-personal since we are made in the non-Personal likeness of the non-Personal God) be made in the likeness of a non-Personal God?!

[Staff Edit]

There is just no need to split God's nature into three distinct individual.

Trinitarianism does not 'split' God's Nature into anything. God exists as ONE NATURE that CANNOT be divided or separated but it can be distinguished (between Father, Son and Holy Spirit) without being separated.

I agree that the Holy Spirit is Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey.

But so is the Father and so is the Son. The Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH and the Holy Spirit is YHWH. One God [YHWH] simultaneously existing as Three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I just don't agree with your concept that he is the result of some unity different from God. He is God because God works in plural manifestations, he is not a different person.

According to you

There is no three persons for God is not a person.

, God is not a Person at all, never mind a 'different' Person?!

I have NEVER said that YHWH is 'the result of some unity different from God' (Isa.42:8). That is nonsense!

[Staff Edit] God is NOT 'One Person' who manifests at different times using different identities [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] otherwise God is a liar (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17).

Oneness theology is the theology of people who have no idea that God exists in a totally different way to that of His creatures.

There are no Trinitarian text in scripture.

Of course there aren't. That's because Trinitarian terminology wasn't developed until the fourth century (when the texts that would eventually become the Judeo-Christian Scriptures were completed during the first century). But as I have already said, the terminology was specifically developed to both encapsulate and articulate the complex and difficult truths that YHWH revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures concerning His existence as God and His Incarnation as a human creature.

It is men who have tampered with God's word by adding to it while ignoring that the almighty has already stated not to add nor diminish from his sayings in the Torah Deut 4:2; Deut 12:32; Rev 22:18-19.

[Staff Edit] No-one has added to anything (the Dead Sea Scrolls have proven that). The Scriptures have been correctly interpreted by the orthodox Church which is why Trinitarianism is orthodox theology and not Arianism or Oneness theology (both of which are heretical).

1 John 5:

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The passage is absent from all the Greek mss. known, accept for four of them. And these four contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a recension of the Latin Vulgate. Furthermore, the passage is not mentioned by any of the church Fathers. Hence, its a addition that does not appear in the Geek manuscripts until the version of the Latin Acts of the Lateran Council in the 1215.

Trinitarian theology is based on the entire Judeo-Christian Scriptures, not just one single verse that may or may not have been a part of the original text? There is more than enough Scriptural evidence to substantiate and vindicate Trinitarian theology without that single verse.

The New Testament authors never argued nor gave any salvific importance to the Trinitarian dogma, so why should you?

Because it only became a serious issue when it was challenged by heretics such as Arius

Agree!

Of-course.

Agree to the fullest.

Correct.

Then how can you deny the Trinitarian Nature of the One True God?!

The Term Father is as i've mentioned before, a Rabbinical Term which shows appreciation for God. God is not a literal human Father. Yeshua is simultaneously Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. He is YHVH!

[Staff Edit] The term 'Father' is not just a 'rabbinical' term, it is a term that God uses with reference to Himself (otherwise the term would only appear in Rabbinical writings (such as the Talmud and the Mishna etc.) but not in the Biblical text?!

No-one is suggesting that God is a human father (literal or figurative) but the Scriptures unequivocally declare that God simultaneously exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Since Yeshua is the human name of the Messiah it cannot possibly be true that a human creature can simultaneously be 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit'?! It is the Divine YHWH who simultaneously exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not His human incarnation, Jesus of Nazareth.

Yes > John 1:1-14; John 20:28.

NO! The Scriptures DO NOT teach that ONLY the Son is the One True God. The Scriptures teach that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are (both individually and collectively) the One True God.

Yes, because he is God's Spirit not a distinct entity.

NO! The Scriptures DO NOT teach that ONLY the Holy Spirit is the One True God. The Scriptures teach that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are (both individually and collectively) the One True God.

[Staff Edit]


My personal belief is that you have no idea what you really believe because you don't understand the first thing about either theology or metaphysics. The statements you make about God are often absurd in the extreme, revealing a complete and total ignorance, both of God and His Scriptures.

I'm sorry, but until you can at least be consistent in what you both declare and argue (even if it's wrong) there can be no possibility of continuing this debate/discussion.

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

,(as I have already demonstrated) and the fact that, like a dog to its vomit, you keep going back to the same facile (i.e. ultra stupid) argument about Trinitarianism


like '2ducklow', you're just going to repeatedly deny the blatantly obvious then there is no point in this discussion/debate


continuing because you, like '2ducklow', are evidently incapable of participating in any reasoned discussion/debate?!



Can I cite this as the most imbecilic quote of the week (if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be differentiated from each other (which is what it means to be 'distinct'), as you are actually arguing (without, I might add, actually understanding what it is that you are arguing), then there CANNOT be a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, only 'a Father', or 'a Son' or 'a Holy Spirit')?!



You haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you?!



Obviously, you've been taught by a theological and metaphysical imbecile that only human creatures are personal but how can a creature be something greater than the Creator that created it?!




What you have stated in this post irrefutably establishes beyond any doubt whatsoever that you are either totally ignorant, totally confused, totally deceived or totally stupid, since everything you have written repeatedly contradicts itself.

My personal belief is that you have no idea what you really believe because you don't understand the first thing about either theology or metaphysics. The statements you make about God are often absurd in the extreme, revealing a complete and total ignorance, both of God and His Scriptures.

I'm sorry, but until you can at least be consistent in what you both declare and argue (even if it's wrong) there can be no possibility of continuing this debate/discussion.

Simonline.

Sure glad you don't resort to ad hominums Simon. Uh looks like you got another one to respond with "no comment" to. Can I get another 'no comment'?

 

[Kris10leigh]

... just like '2ducklow', you too have been indoctrinated by a heretical cult to such an extent that you are completely out of touch with reality.

Opening myself up here, but I believe as they do and I have not been indotrinated in any way. I read the Bible and study on my own and came to this conclusion because I choose to follow Yeshua, not man. I attend a Methodist church, which preaches the Trinity. I choose not to believe in it. It is not from being exposed to any "heretical cult" that some choose not to believe a doctrine written by uninspired men.

The validity of the Trinitiarian doctrine is based upon what the Scriptures do say (see my previous few posts), not on what they don't say!

As I see it, both groups have quoted scripture both for and against the Trinity.

Absolute Reality, by definition, CANNOT be separated. There can ONLY BE ONE ABSOLUTE REALITY.

Whose reaity? Yours? Or Gods? This is where I say that man can't know this. Man can only know what God leads him/her to know.

Trinitarianism is strictly Monotheistic (Deut.6:4). There is ONLY ONE GOD (existing as Three distinct Persons but still only one God, not three gods).

I find this interesting. It is my belief that the trinity first appeared in our doctrines BECAUSE early Christians knew they were to be worshiping only one God. They came up with the Trinity so they could justify worshiping God, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.

If you are trusting in a god who does not actually exist (i.e. a Unitarian god) then you are still dead in your trespasses and sins and heading for the everlasting Lake of Fire as a child of wrath.

Do you really not see that we are worshiping the same God, but getting there by different paths? Our God IS Unitarian; one God. Even if you don't like the definition of a Unitarian believer, it doesn't change the fact that God is one. God said He is a jealous God and that we are to worship only Him.

No, you are commanded to trust in the One True God who actually exists (as revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) and not simply a heretical figment of unregenerate human imagination.

I think you and I must differ very much on how we view religion. I think it is very, very sad that you would condemn anyone who doesn't believe as you do.

 

[2ducklow]

I have already proven, solely on the basis of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, that the One True God simultaneously exists as Three distinct (not separate)

dis·tinct

1.distinguished as not being the same; not identical; separate (sometimes fol. by from): His private and public lives are distinct. 2.different in nature or quality; dissimilar (sometimes fol. by from): Gold is distinct from iron.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/distinct

Uh maybe dictionary.com is a heretic?!

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

But so is the Father and so is the Son. The Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH and the Holy Spirit is YHWH. One God [YHWH] simultaneously existing as Three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I don't have a problem with the above statement. But only if you understood it as you are explaining it. One God simultaneously existing in three persons is not a Trinity. If you really see it as one God existing in three person simultaneously, then you wouldn't be saying that the persons are distinct or different. If there is a difference, or distinctiveness then it is not just one deity at work, it is three of them! If you say three deities can be one then i will regard you as honest, rather then standing there and playing this very dishonest word game with us!

According to you , God is not a Person at all, never mind a 'different' Person?!

Thanks. God can personify as he wants and when he wants.

I have NEVER said that YHWH is 'the result of some unity different from God' (Isa.42:8). That is nonsense!

What are you talking about. You did say YHVH is Yeshua. This is exactly what i believe, yet you contradict yourself by turning around and saying that the Father is distinct from the Son and Spirit, and the Spirit is also distinct from both. This means that there is three YHVH in your theology. Please explain this dilemma.

What you are espousing is the heresy of Oneness (though I think you are so confused that you haven't got a clue what you believe because every time you make a new statement you contradict what you have said earlier?!). God is NOT 'One Person' who manifests at different times using different identities [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] otherwise God is a liar (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17).

Hey, Simultaneously being all at once doesn't indicate a change in God's nature. It is you contradicting yourself on every statement. You are just ignoring everything that undermines your doctrine. The divinity does not die nor change since he is from everlasting to everlasting, immortal who dwells in unapproachable light Timothy 6:16..

Oneness theology is the theology of people who have no idea that God exists in a totally different way to that of His creatures.

If your theology is not oneness then you are denying scripture. Your theology, though Trinitarian has to be oneness. If it isn't, then you are polytheist! You have the slightest idea what my theology is, sense i only base my doctrines on what scripture reveals not on your speculations. Scripture does not reveal all of the terminology and play on words that you are conjecturing.

Don't talk such utter nonsense! No-one has added to anything (the Dead Sea Scrolls have proven that). The Scriptures have been correctly interpreted by the orthodox Church which is why Trinitarianism is orthodox theology and not Arianism or Oneness theology (both of which are heretical).

You are just being ignorant! There are many additions, that is why the textual Bible from the Oldest Greek manuscripts is available in your nearest Trinitarian Christian book store.

Trinitarian theology is based on the entire Judeo-Christian Scriptures, not just one single verse that may or may not have been a part of the original text? There is more than enough Scriptural evidence to substantiate and vindicate Trinitarian theology without that single verse.

You just said nothing has been added. But that certainly was added. Well, it is not surprising to catch you contradicting yourself once more! It is not that it may have been added, but rather that it was an added text.

Because it only became a serious issue when it was challenged by heretics such as Arius

Not biblical! Don't you think it would have been challenged way before Arius if the doctrine existed before the Christians came along in the mid third and fourth centuries?

Then how can you deny the Trinitarian Nature of the One True God?!

If you explain it like you did previously then i agree with you. It is when you say distinct that we part ways!

What utter rubbish?! The term 'Father' is not just a 'rabbinical' term, it is a term that God uses with reference to Himself (otherwise the term would only appear in Rabbinical writings (such as the Talmud and the Mishna etc.) but not in the Biblical text?!

I did not say it is only a rabbinical term. But Rabbis did use it in appreciation for God, what they did not do is regard him a literal human figure as perhaps you do.

Since Yeshua is the human name of the Messiah it cannot possibly be true that a human creature can simultaneously be 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit'?! It is the Divine YHWH who simultaneously exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not His human incarnation, Jesus of Nazareth.

Yeshua's divinity was subjected to him not divided as your implying. What you are saying is a play on words and in one hand you are denying he is God and in the other you are saying he is YHVH. Which one is it? Is he not? Or is he?

NO! The Scriptures DO NOT teach that ONLY the Son is the One True God. The Scriptures teach that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are (both individually and collectively) the One True God.

Yes they do. For the Scriptures are strictly monotheistic not polytheistic. If Yeshua is not the one and only true God, then by your own standing he is not YHVH. What is it. Is he? Or is he not?

NO! The Scriptures DO NOT teach that ONLY the Holy Spirit is the One True God. The Scriptures teach that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are (both individually and collectively) the One True God.

If the Holy Spirit is not the one and only true God, then what you have is more then one true reality.

What you have stated in this post irrefutably establishes beyond any doubt whatsoever that you are either totally ignorant, totally confused, totally deceived or totally stupid, since everything you have written repeatedly contradicts itself.

More personal attacks. Seems like attacking people is your strategy.

I'm sorry, but until you can at least be consistent in what you both declare and argue (even if it's wrong) there can be no possibility of continuing this debate/discussion.

Simonline.

Lol, it is you who has utterly failed to follow a logical progression in our discussion. It is not my inconsistency thats in question. It is your inability to address my arguments thats in question. Calling me stupid and ignorant does not address the questions. On the contrary, it shows an inability from your part to address them! I don't need to continue debating with people that are bearing such great fruits! So be it.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

God isn't 'split into three distinct deities' (that's Tri-theism which is metaphysically impossible, which is why Tri-theism is both heretical and absurd). As I have already said, orthodox Christianity is Trinitarian, not Tri-theistic.

This is more play on words, you have repeated that they are distinct but not separate. I have provided the definition of distinct and you've ignored it. Why? Lets try this once more, look below at the previous question i asked in which you exploded resorted to personal attacks.
Distinct >
1: distinguishable to the eye or mind as discrete : separate <a distinct cultural group> <teaching as distinct from research> 2: presenting a clear unmistakable impression <a neat distinct handwriting>3archaic : notably decorated4 a: notable <a distinct contribution to scholarship> b: readily and unmistakably apprehended <a distinct possibility of snow> <a distinct British accent>
— dis·tinct·ly \-&#712;sti&#331;(k)-tl&#275;, -&#712;sti&#331;-kl&#275;\ adverb
— dis·tinct·ness \-&#712;sti&#331;(k)t-n&#601;s, -&#712;sti&#331;k-n&#601;s\ noun
synonyms distinct, separate, discrete mean not being each and every one the same. distinct indicates that something is distinguished by the mind or eye as being apart or different from others <two distinct versions>. separate often stresses lack of connection or a difference in identity between two things <separate rooms>. discrete strongly emphasizes individuality and lack of connection <broke the job down into discrete stages>.
synonyms see in addition evident

Previously by Yeshua My Salvation > Distinct means different but not disconnected where as separate means complete disconnection. You said Yeshua is YHVH but distinct, how exactly does that happen? How can he be different and the same?

None of my arguments were addressed, attacking my person does not address my arguments. On the contrary, it only shows your inability to address them!

You haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you?!

No i don't, not because i can't comprehend but simply because it makes no-sense. How in the world could Tri-Theism be different that what you are proposing? If being Trinitarian is not Polytheistic, then neither is Tri-Theism. If you tell me you believe in three deities in one then that sounds a lot more logical then saying three are one but different and the same. You can't have it both ways. It is either Tri-Theism or nothing.

Of course YHWH is 'Almighty'. As Absolute Reality, YHWH CANNOT be anything other than 'Almighty'!

We certainly don't disagree here!

The man-made terminology has been painstakingly developed by the orthodox Christian Church in order to encapsulate and articulate the very complex and difficult truths that YHWH has revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures about His own existence as God and His Incarnation as a human creature. Those man-made terms (such as Trinitarian/Tri-Personal, hypostatic union, etc.) are the best human articulation of Divinely revealed truth and as such are completely valid as Christian doctrine and dogma (especially for the purpose of educating and encouraging the faithful and refuting heresy).

Not believing in these man made Terms is not defined as heresy in scripture. It is individuals as yourself that have no way of explaining the many contradictions in there teachings that resort to personal attacks when refuted.

No, I've changed my mind! I want to cite this quote as the most imbecilic quote of the week because this one is even better than the previous one!

Then address it, don't waste your time posting personal attacks because they don't faze me!

If God is not a 'Person' then how could God as an 'It' bring the Creation itself into existence?!

I did not say God is an it. You are Messianic and have the slightest understanding of Judaism, that is sad. I believe God speaks the language of humans in away that our limited minds can comprehend. It is why he is invisible Spirit not a "person." If God manifests in all his glory no one would Survive.

How could a non-Personal God say 'Let there be light!' etc.?!

Because he speaks the language of men. How could he communicate with men if he didn't? He doesn't have to be man to communicate with men!

Furthermore, how could all humans (who must also be non-personal since we are made in the non-Personal likeness of the non-Personal God) be made in the likeness of a non-Personal God?!

Depends on whats your view of being made in the image of God. If it's a Greek understanding as the Mormons, then of course you'd see this as meaning God is a person that has hands feet and a male gender. If it's a Hebrew understanding then you will surely grasp the meaning of the passage without inserting your understanding. Being made in the image and likeness of God does not mean men are all knowing Omnipresent invisible creatures. You are being inconsistent!

Obviously, you've been taught by a theological and metaphysical imbecile that only human creatures are personal but how can a creature be something greater than the Creator that created it?!

More insults. God does not have to be a person to be great. To the contrary, the fact that he is not a person makes him much greater then confining him as you do to time and space. It is you who nails God into a box!

Your post just gets more and more ridiculously incredulous the further it goes on?!

No, it is your inability to address my post thats getting ridicules.

Trinitarianism does not 'split' God's Nature into anything. God exists as ONE NATURE that CANNOT be divided or separated but it can be distinguished (between Father, Son and Holy Spirit) without being separated.

Ok, if it is distinguishable then it is different. Just because there is a lack of disconnection does not mean they are not different. You did say that Yeshua is YHVH, but then you turn around and say that they are distinct. Please explain, don't attack! Your personal attacks don't address anything, it only detracts us.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

I have already proven, solely on the basis of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, that the One True God simultaneously exists as Three distinct (not separate) non-corporeal (Jn.4:24) Persons?! The fact that the Scriptures do not specifically use the words 'Three, distinct, non-corporeal Persons' does not mean that God does not simultaneously exist as Three, distinct non-corporeal Persons (as I have already demonstrated) and the fact that, like a dog to its vomit, you keep going back to the same facile (i.e. ultra stupid) argument about Trinitarianism being invalid because the text of the Judeo-Scriptures that were completed by the end of the first centry AD/CE does not contain the precise theological terminology that was not developed until the 4th century AD/CE shows that, just like '2ducklow', you too have been indoctrinated by a heretical cult to such an extent that you are completely out of touch with reality.

LOL, What reality? The reality of your inability to address arguments? It is not only because as you say the Jewish Christian text doesn't contain it, but also on the basis of it's lack of importance in the New Testamentary text. The Jews unlike the Greeks do not philosophize in fully understanding God's nature. They simply accept that God is who he says he is period. The Trinity is just contradictory philosophy. Saying that myself and others have been indoctrinated by a heretical cult only and exclusively because you utterly fail to address our arguments doesn't make your opinion towards us a fact as you are selling it to others in this forum. I am not a member of no cult, i am strictly Jewish period. Nor have i been indoctrinated by anyone!