Should women be preachers in church?

[Maria Billingsley]

I hear that some say women are not suppose to preach. But looking at 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV, the verses are talking to married men, and says let “Your” women.
34 “Let “your” women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
34 “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The reason for this relates to this verses, which explains the law Paul is referring to under a marriage covenant:
1 Corinthians 7:39 KJV
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth…..
1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I don’t see scriptures saying an unmarried woman cannot preach. If a woman is not married, she has no man over her, therefore if she chooses to preach, there is no marriage covenant to break.

I suspect Jesus Christ of Nazareth has nothing against women preachers.
Blessings.

 

[Bobber]

First I don't know exactly what I think about this subject. I'm certainly open to reassess my view. I believe many make a claim to this or a claim of that ....some of it may be true in itself but it can be a detour from the actual question. Meaning some say Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene after the resurrectoin....so see there! God cares about women too! Well of course he does. No one should deny that. But that doesn't answer the question should females be let's say leaders in the church as in pastors, chief elders etc. or teachers? So when we discuss this it's hard not to let emotions arise.

We do live in a culture which puts forth that equality in ALL things should be the rule. We really don't believe that though that is....IN ALL THINGS. Humans and genders do have different capacities....doesn't mean one is superior to another.....just different. But let's go into this subject by another door. People do get offended at the idea that females may not have the same capacity as a male.....but let's see the other side of the coin.

Eph 6:4 says....."Fathers provoke not your children to anger" Hmmm.....doesn't sound fair to the male gender does it? Why didn't it say mothers don't provoke your children ? Well....nature tells us something doesn't it? Males are MORE PRONE as a general rule to be more forward and not as motherly and compassionate as a female. Who could deny this? So the female is not more prone to loose their temper with the offspring. I mean we just KNOW that's the case. What's the ole saying even in culture....wait to your father gets home! Right?

The male gender is more wired to be a disciplinarian or the one to set things in order and let's hold with this for a second......do you not think perhaps that the church needs that same prone tendency working though a leader? Wouldn't it be wise to have the gender that's more wired to be the more standup, bringing things in order as one's in authority?

I might be offending some here but aren't I telling you what nature tells us. If I said all the above to you outside of our topic most all here would agree with me....YES....THE MALE is the more bring things in line or their more of the standup disciplinarian. A female does temper him though bringing some balance and compassion.....but....the male is more equipped by nature in setting things straight. So it seems to me males ARE meant to be the leaders. Now lets look at the verse below,

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Now watch the next words "For.....for.....FOR....(in saying FOR this tells us the reason why and no offence but in all the posts on this thread I haven't' seen anyone quote the actual reason why.....and the reason is given after the word FOR.....see below,

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

(I'd say we can't get around that folks. That's talking about order or sequence. That's the reason that males are to be the leaders that is in the church. Let's read on...--->

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

So it seems it's saying male and female were created with different roles. Adam was given chief authority and Eve was to be his helpmate. And also....and this is where I make more people mad.....that females potentially can manifest a certain weakness (and I'm talking about generally speaking) that males don't which is.....females can be taken in more easily. If i was to say the word potentially more gullible I'm sure some would like to stone me. Hold on now before you do.....I've already shared here that MALES have a certain inherit weakness too, just so you know I'm balanced. I've told you from Eph6:4 that males, FATHERS not mothers are told to be careful about their weakness that THEY as a gender are prone to, which is loosing their temper with the offspring.....where a mother, female isn't wired particularly that way. OK last verse now watch this,

15Notwithstanding she shall (the female) shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Now many have scratched their heads over this verse. Saved by giving kids? No. It's not saved as in sins being forgiven, its talking about when she gives up her thought of wanting to be a leader in the church or having authority over the male..... she'll find fulfillment and achieve her real destiny in being a good mother in the home...NOT AN INFERIOR thing by the way. She's the one with the motherly love and compassion that fills that necessary role. The male struggles with bringing that forth from himself in the same way a female can have some weaknesses in what they can be prone to. That's why marriage break up with kids involved is so sad. You need both types of influence.

In closing this is what I believe the scriptures are saying. I admit I could be wrong still willing to think more on the subject......But one thing I know I'm not wrong on......the Bible DOES say and indicate genders ARE more prone to be a certain way over another. which we could call a weakness....Doesn't Eph 6: 4 prove this beyond question about the male? Perhaps the scriptures DO speak of the female's strengths and weaknesses too?

 

[Paidiske]

Eph 6:4 says....."Fathers provoke not your children to anger" Hmmm.....doesn't sound fair to the male gender does it? Why didn't it say mothers don't provoke your children ? Well....nature tells us something doesn't it? Males are MORE PRONE as a general rule to be more forward and not as motherly and compassionate as a female. Who could deny this? So the female is not more prone to loose their temper with the offspring. I mean we just KNOW that's the case. What's the ole saying even in culture....wait to your father gets home! Right?

Have you considered that the instruction might be to fathers here, because in that culture it was fathers who held all the power over their households? Even to the extent to the legal right to kill members of it?

The male gender is more wired to be a disciplinarian or the one to set things in order and let's hold with this for a second......do you not think perhaps that the church needs that same prone tendency working though a leader? Wouldn't it be wise to have the gender that's more wired to be the more standup, bringing things in order as one's in authority?

In general I don't really believe this is an innate gender difference. But if there are such innate gender differences, I would argue that church leadership would therefore benefit from the diversity of both sexes in leadership, ideally working together as a team.

So it seems it's saying male and female were created with different roles. Adam was given chief authority and Eve was to be his helpmate. And also....and this is where I make more people mad.....that females potentially can manifest a certain weakness (and I'm talking about generally speaking) that males don't which is.....females can be taken in more easily.

This is a very dangerous claim, and one which is not supported in the text. Just because Eve was deceived, does not mean that Paul here is saying that women, generally speaking, are more easily deceived. But that idea is frequently used to dismiss, belittle and gaslight women.

its talking about when she gives up her thought of wanting to be a leader in the church or having authority over the male..... she'll find fulfillment and achieve her real destiny in being a good mother in the home...NOT AN INFERIOR thing by the way.

Except (leaving aside that that's not how I'd understand that passage) some of us have tried that and found that it's absolutely not true. Each person find fulfilment in pursuing what God calls us to. And for some of us, that means being a stay at home mum is a path to absolute misery (and in my case, significant depression).

 

[biblelesson]

First I don't know exactly what I think about this subject. I'm certainly open to reassess my view. I believe many make a claim to this or a claim of that ....some of it may be true in itself but it can be a detour from the actual question. Meaning some say Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene after the resurrectoin....so see there! God cares about women too! Well of course he does. No one should deny that. But that doesn't answer the question should females be let's say leaders in the church as in pastors, chief elders etc. or teachers? So when we discuss this it's hard not to let emotions arise.

So you said a lot, but very interesting! You have expressed the same frustration many people express today - because of so many opinions.

If you don’t mind I want to make some preliminary comments before touching on the comments in your post:

Preliminary comments

We turn our minds on Christ:

We are told to go outside the camp to God bearing Jesus reproach, Hebrews 13:13 KJV.

This sanctification process of meeting God outside the camp was first established with Israel, Exodus 33:7 KJV, which pointed to what Messiah would suffer, and His sanctification of us with His blood, Hebrews 13:12-13 KJV, which He bore outside the camp. Jesus bore the sins of the people (all people). If you search the Bible for the many instances where Israel had to go outside the camp, you will see the many sins Jesus covered for us.

Therefore we bare His reproach outside the camp - leaving the worldly things and people with their opinions, no matter how hard it is - we reject those who reject Jesus and the Gospel of Christ - but in LOVE.

Jesus prayed a special prayer to the Father for those that belong to Him before He was crucified: for you, for me, for all who will come: John 17:1-26 KJV. If you really look at what Jesus is asking the Father for us, you will see that your frustration is not warranted because we are not part of the world, we are not part of the many misrepresented opinions people have in this world, and just as the world hated Jesus, we will also be hated - because we don’t allow others to persuade us away from the truth of the Gospel and from Christ - we stand!

Paul helps us to understand what’s going on in the world, but one thing he prophesied really caused me to pay attention. The children of the flesh (Ishmael), still taunts the children of the promise (Isaac) - even today, Galatians 4:29 KJV. So your frustration is with the children of Ishmael. Read all of the relating scriptures in Galatians: Galatians 4:22-31 KJV.

The truth of what the church suffers is also in John 15:18-27 KJV (many other places). This what Jesus said is a shock to the saint’s senses and the reason why we struggle to be free from the wrong influence. But we must work through this fear.

One more thing that relates,
Ephesians 6:12 KJV
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (it’s the spirit behind the people, group, organization, person) - all Antichrist - all spiritual wickedness.

Addressing women preachers

First the Bible did not say Mary Magdalene was a teacher and you are correct; just because Jesus appeared to her first is no reason to use that event to say women can be preachers. Doing so is a form of deception; it’s not sound doctrine and the Bible warns us against this, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV (many other places).

But there are women who the Bible identify as as prophetess, which is also one of the gifts Jesus gave to the church - Prophets
Ephesians 4:11 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (although under the New Testament, a “prophet” would not be the only gift given to a women; she could very well receive the the gift of a teacher, apostle, pastor, evangelist).

There were no preachers, teachers, apostles, or pastors in the Old Testament; only prophets. So you can see that a woman who had the title of prophetess in the Old Testament was considered the same as a prophet in the Old Testament.

1) Anna - prophetess - Luke 2:36-37 KJV
2) Deborah - prophetess- Judges 4:4 KJV
3) Nehemiah prayed against the prophetess and other prophets, asking for God’s protection - Nehemiah 6:14 KJV
4) Miriam - prophetess- Exodus 15:20 KJV
5) Micah mentions God’s relationship with Miriam along with Moses and Aaron - Micah 6:4 KJV

Accounts of Acts

In the book of Acts, at Pentecost, Peter spoke to the people to explain what they were witnessing and mentioned the prophet Josel’s prophesy, that God’s Spirit will pour out on all flesh, that sons and daughters will prophesy, and God’s servants and hand maids, Acts 2:16-17 KJV

This incident at Pentecost was the beginning of the development of the church.

Before Paul spoke to the Corinthians about men not permitting their women to speak in church, we see an account of Paul staying in the home of Phillip who was an evangelist, and had 4 virgin daughters who were prophetess - Acts 21:9 KJV

Phillip was an evangelist who worked with Paul to build the churches, and known that women were not to speak or teach in church, so why would Phillip allow his virgin daughters to be prophetess if in fact women were not to speak in church? The answer is because the command does not apply to unmarried women.

Women (unmarried) were indeed allowed to speak and pray in church and even prophesy, 1 Corinthians 11:5 KJV.

1 Timothy 2:12 KJV is talking about married women usurping authority over their husbands. Notice he said over “the man” which is not all men. “the man” in the verse is talking about the woman’s husband.

The only man over a woman is her father and husband. There is no other man that can claim to be over a woman. Therefore an unmarried woman cannot be blamed for usurping authority over a man, because if that were the case, women all over the world would be subservient to all men - and that is absolutely not the case.

I would like to reply to more, but I will stop for now!

God bless!

 

[Rose_bud]

No person should be "over" another person. Those in ministry are called to serve, to lead, to guide as God gives them the grace to do so.

‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:2-‬3‬ ‭
Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

 

[Oneofhope]

No person should be "over" another person.

Philippians 1:1 NIV - "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all God's holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:"

 

[Rose_bud]

Philippians 1:1 NIV - "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all God's holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:"

?... the "over" is deliberately in quotation marks.

 

[Oneofhope]

?... the "over" is deliberately in quotation marks.

Oh, ok. I always thought that someone who was an "overseer" was considered "over" those they were overseeing.

 

[Rose_bud]

Oh, ok. I always thought that someone who was an "overseer" was considered "over" those they were overseeing.

The over is not lording it over, but carefully watching over, which is the meaning of the word overseer episkopos carefully looking (skopos) out for others.

 

[Oneofhope]

Glad to see that you have changed your approach:

" No person should be "over" another person. Those in ministry are called to serve, to lead, to guide as God gives them the grace to do so."

 

[Rose_bud]

Glad to see that you have changed your approach:

" No person should be "over" another person. Those in ministry are called to serve, to lead, to guide as God gives them the grace to do so."

Hey there friend

My approach has not changed, no person should lord over another person, unless you believe that there are those that should.?

Ministers are called to love and care for those entrusted in their care. The emphasis is care and more so serve. God thoroughly rebuked the shepherds of old who did not care for his flock, (metaphor for those in leadership) see Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 34. And prophetically pointing to the Chief Shephard.

 

[Oneofhope]

Hey there friend

My approach has not changed, no person should lord over another person, unless you believe that there are those that should.?

Ministers are called to love and care for those entrusted in their care. The emphasis is care and more so serve. God thoroughly rebuked the shepherds of old who did not care for his flock, (metaphor for those in leadership) see Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 34. And prophetically pointing to the Chief Shephard.

Maybe the word that might fit the context of your position is "control"?

Overseeing is not controlling, but guiding and leading as you mentioned earlier. Control comes from the leadership level, such as those having the power to kick a young man out of the church who is having sex with his step-mom.

 

[Rose_bud]

Maybe the word that might fit the context of your position is "control"?

Overseeing is not controlling, but guiding and leading as you mentioned earlier. Control comes from the leadership level, such as those having the power to kick a young man out of the church who is having sex with his step-mom.

Yes that is a bit more fitting

Your reference to those with power suggests to me we may have different views on church government, but I suppose that should be discussed on a different thread.

 

[timothyu]

A shepherd, a servant. Just like in governments of man, that is often forgotten within churches also.

The earliest followers and Apostles were also subservient, being women, slaves, servants or low on the economic rung, for they understood what it was to be oppressed. One would think accordingly that a woman would be better suited naturally to be an elder, but whether male or female, the temptation to rise above one's station rather than maintain it, can be too much of a temptation for most. They miss the point a shepherd was lowly and not someone to herd everyone around.

 

[Oneofhope]

Yes that is a bit more fitting

Your reference to those with power suggests to me we may have different views on church government, but I suppose that should be discussed on a different thread.

That could be true. I haven't thought about leadership roles for probably a decade. The focus of my time is spent learning the Salvation Plan of Christ and how it is incorporated into the full Story of God. My role is to share an accurate Saving Plan of Christ with both believers and non-believers. Therefore, I don't get too concerned about other concepts that take our focus away from the Story of God.

 

[Rose_bud]

That could be true. I haven't thought about leadership roles for probably a decade. The focus of my time is spent learning the Salvation Plan of Christ and how it is incorporated into the full Story of God. My role is to share an accurate Saving Plan of Christ with both believers and non-believers. Therefore, I don't get too concerned about other concepts that take our focus away from the Story of God.

I can respect your stance. I too prefer biblical theology to systematics. But many a times come back to the single concepts.

 

[Oneofhope]

I can respect your stance. I too prefer biblical theology to systematics. But many a times come back to the single concepts.

Nice. When I read (from Paul) that there has been a hidden, Mysterious Plan, kept hidden since the beginning, "everything" changed for me. I realized that I could not, with confidence, give an answer is someone asked me what those passages are about. Yes, Paul mentions this Mysterious Plan several times in his writings. So, I realized that I needed to understand this Plan, with confidence, and thus realized that I couldn't waste my time trying to understand anything outside of the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rose_bud]

Nice. When I read (from Paul) that there has been a hidden, Mysterious Plan, kept hidden since the beginning, "everything" changed for me. I realized that I could not, with confidence, give an answer is someone asked me what those passages are about. Yes, Paul mentions this Mysterious Plan several times in his writings. So, I realized that I needed to understand this Plan, with confidence, and thus realized that I couldn't waste my time trying to understand anything outside of the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ.

For me it was discovering the theme of God's grace through the biblical story of creation, fall, rescue and consummation. He progressively revealing who He is to a creation opposed to Him. The climax of the story, culminating in the perfect revelation of who He is Jesus Christ. The mystery of such a great love for a sinner like me. His plan to not just rescue and redeem me but all and everything that has been marred because of the rebellion against His rule.

 

[Oneofhope]

For me it was discovering the theme of God's grace through the biblical story of creation, fall, rescue and consummation. He progressively revealing who He is to a creation opposed to Him. The climax of the story, culminating in the perfect revelation of who He is Jesus Christ. The mystery of such a great love for a sinner like me. His plan to not just rescue and redeem me but all and everything that has been marred because of the rebellion against His rule.

That is a very interesting synopsis of the Bible. I have a feeling that the two of us could get some good things done in this Kingdom before we leave.

 

[biblelesson]

Why are so many opinions given that’s not biblically based? Why can we find the true answers based on what the Bible says? Man’s opinion does not override God’s word. That’s what the problem is today - with so much false doctrine, false worship, false prophets, false teachers that the Bible warns us about.

What’s wrong with searching the scriptures to know what God’s commands are around the subject?