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Should we sin 'boldly' ???

atpollard

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"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [or sin boldly], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13), are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

I won't lie, Luther has made some strange statements before, so I am not surprised about this quote. I have a hard time reading his commentaries.

It sounds to me that Luther is using a hyperbole about the old nature that hangs on and still tempts us, and that despite our daily failings, we must nonetheless hold stronger to Christ. Nobody accidently commits sin, but even so, let us boldly come to Christ all the more.
Luke 7 [NASB]
40 And Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he replied, “Say it, Teacher.” 41 “A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the otherfifty. 42 When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have judged correctly.” 44 Turning toward the woman, He said to Simon,“Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave Me no kiss; but she, sincethe time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47 For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”​

That’s what Luther was talking about.
 
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lsume

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I quote Martin Luther...

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world... ” Martin Luther.
Martin Luther said other strange things as I recall. One in particular I can’t quote here.
 
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fhansen

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I get what Luther was trying to say, that our salvation is not dependent on our actions but on Christ.
and where sin abounds grace DOES abound
but as Paul taught, we shouldn't abound in sin SO that grace can abound.
It's abusing our relationship.
I'd like to personally pound less nails into the flesh of Jesus Christ as I can, even though I know I'll never NOT need His forgiveness.
But the security is in knowing you HAVE a relationship with Jesus, and that you are forgiven and that Jesus does not unforgive you, and your forgiveness is for His own name's sake, not based on our actions but His righteousness.
His forgiveness is useless, it has no effect, if we don’t respond in kind, if we don’t love back to put it another way.

“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
Matt 6:14-15

We, too, have a role to play in it all.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I quote Martin Luther...

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world... ” Martin Luther.

I'd recommend the fuller context. Luther wasn't telling anyone to sin. But telling Philip Melancthon to be honest about sin, because if one is going to preach real grace then we have to be honest about real sin. "Let your sins be bold" means being frank, honest, and real about sin and our problem with sin. Jesus didn't come to save imaginary sinners, but real sinners. We are real sinners, our sins are serious and need serious, real grace--we need a real Savior. not just a bit of comforting words to make us feel better about ourselves.

Full letter: https://www.projectwittenberg.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

And a more fuller portion of where the controversial quote comes form:

"If you are a preacher of grace, do not preach an imaginary but real grace. If the grace is real, you must therefore bear real, not imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter are looking forward to a new haven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins. Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

"Be a sinner" does not mean "it's okay to sin", it means "admit that you are a sinner, confess that you are a sinner, and mean it"

I, ViaCrucis, am a wretch and sinner who is justly condemned by the Law, and therefore deserving of death and hell.

I am, by the grace of God and by the perfect work of Christ alone, saved by the God of all salvation, love, and hope; who has granted me--undeserving wretch that I am--a seat at the Table, not as a slave or a servant, but as a son and heir. Such is the goodness of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jamdoc

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His forgiveness is useless, it has no effect, if we don’t respond in kind, if we don’t love back to put it another way.

“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
Matt 6:14-15

We, too, have a role to play in it all.

I pray you don't base your salvation on yourself, that's a losing battle.
 
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fhansen

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I pray you don't base your salvation on yourself, that's a losing battle.
Not together with God, it's not. It just happens that He wants our cooperation with Him in His work-and He won't force that issue.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I'd recommend the fuller context. Luther wasn't telling anyone to sin. But telling Philip Melancthon to be honest about sin, because if one is going to preach real grace then we have to be honest about real sin. "Let your sins be bold" means being frank, honest, and real about sin and our problem with sin. Jesus didn't come to save imaginary sinners, but real sinners. We are real sinners, our sins are serious and need serious, real grace--we need a real Savior. not just a bit of comforting words to make us feel better about ourselves.

Full letter: https://www.projectwittenberg.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

And a more fuller portion of where the controversial quote comes form:

"If you are a preacher of grace, do not preach an imaginary but real grace. If the grace is real, you must therefore bear real, not imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter are looking forward to a new haven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins. Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

"Be a sinner" does not mean "it's okay to sin", it means "admit that you are a sinner, confess that you are a sinner, and mean it"

I, ViaCrucis, am a wretch and sinner who is justly condemned by the Law, and therefore deserving of death and hell.

I am, by the grace of God and by the perfect work of Christ alone, saved by the God of all salvation, love, and hope; who has granted me--undeserving wretch that I am--a seat at the Table, not as a slave or a servant, but as a son and heir. Such is the goodness of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes - I think this is the most likely explanation - thanks...
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I'd recommend the fuller context. Luther wasn't telling anyone to sin. But telling Philip Melancthon to be honest about sin, because if one is going to preach real grace then we have to be honest about real sin. "Let your sins be bold" means being frank, honest, and real about sin and our problem with sin. Jesus didn't come to save imaginary sinners, but real sinners. We are real sinners, our sins are serious and need serious, real grace--we need a real Savior. not just a bit of comforting words to make us feel better about ourselves.

Full letter: https://www.projectwittenberg.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

And a more fuller portion of where the controversial quote comes form:

"If you are a preacher of grace, do not preach an imaginary but real grace. If the grace is real, you must therefore bear real, not imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter are looking forward to a new haven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins. Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

"Be a sinner" does not mean "it's okay to sin", it means "admit that you are a sinner, confess that you are a sinner, and mean it"

I, ViaCrucis, am a wretch and sinner who is justly condemned by the Law, and therefore deserving of death and hell.

I am, by the grace of God and by the perfect work of Christ alone, saved by the God of all salvation, love, and hope; who has granted me--undeserving wretch that I am--a seat at the Table, not as a slave or a servant, but as a son and heir. Such is the goodness of God.

-CryptoLutheran
A good explanation and one which which I agree - if only people would work so hard to explain and understand the views of their opponents in theology, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?
 
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fhansen

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I'd recommend the fuller context. Luther wasn't telling anyone to sin. But telling Philip Melancthon to be honest about sin, because if one is going to preach real grace then we have to be honest about real sin. "Let your sins be bold" means being frank, honest, and real about sin and our problem with sin. Jesus didn't come to save imaginary sinners, but real sinners. We are real sinners, our sins are serious and need serious, real grace--we need a real Savior. not just a bit of comforting words to make us feel better about ourselves.

Full letter: https://www.projectwittenberg.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

And a more fuller portion of where the controversial quote comes form:

"If you are a preacher of grace, do not preach an imaginary but real grace. If the grace is real, you must therefore bear real, not imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter are looking forward to a new haven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins. Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

"Be a sinner" does not mean "it's okay to sin", it means "admit that you are a sinner, confess that you are a sinner, and mean it"

I, ViaCrucis, am a wretch and sinner who is justly condemned by the Law, and therefore deserving of death and hell.

I am, by the grace of God and by the perfect work of Christ alone, saved by the God of all salvation, love, and hope; who has granted me--undeserving wretch that I am--a seat at the Table, not as a slave or a servant, but as a son and heir. Such is the goodness of God.

-CryptoLutheran
Alright-and I’m not at all sure what Luther was trying to get at here. If he’s saying that, as long as we believe, were saved regardless of what we do, that would be nonsense. Or that our salvation depends strictly on our level of trusting that our sins are forgiven-that would likewise be nonsense. Faith means oneness with God and that relationship/union is the basis of justice or righteousness for man and engenders His righteousness in us, so that there’s potentially less and less unrighteousness left to condemn us. Jesus died while we were yet sinners but we’re not saved in spite of our sins rather were saved unto sinlessness. The confusion and waffling would be on the part of someone who says, “We’re going to continue to sin anyway so get over it; sin can’t affect the salvation of a believer”. What does Sola Fide really mean to say? Does it mean that, if we have faith then we’ll also have works, including more righteousness/less sin? But if so, does that righteousness really even matter anyway according to Luther’s understanding of Sola Fide and grace? Does sin, for all practical purposes, not matter for a believer? I think the answer “no, it doesn’t matter” might honestly reflect Sola Fide -and that, incidentally, explains why Luther would throw out the sacrament of confession/reconciliation. If we’re already forgiven before we sin, there’s no reason to even acknowledge the sin; sin’s inevitable anyway after all.

God, alone, can save man. We cannot justify and save ourselves; that’s a free gift that comes as we embrace the first gift, of faith. But a justified person is a new creation, changed, not merely forgiven. He possesses in seedling form the life of God in himself, with the virtues of faith, hope, and love that are intrinsic to that state. He can now walk like a child of God, or not. He can return to the flesh; He can turn away from God. Remaining in Him is not a matter of simply professing to ourselves and others that we’re in Him but is integrally interwoven with and inseparable from the righteousness that should be part and parcel of that relationship in the overall sense even as we acknowledge imperfection and the sin that still occurs. But we’re on a journey, a journey to perfection, a journey to ever more nearness to Him, a journey to be perfected in love to put it another way-and that must be the road we’re on- and the goal- as it’s a journey that we participate in, that we’re to take more and more responsibility in making.

IMO the EO and Catholic position handle the matter of sin correctly. While sinlessness is technically possible by virtue of union with Him (He never created us to sin after all), sinless perfection is not expected in this life. But we’re to be on that road, to that perfection, again, to that likeness with God and certainly not wallowing in such grave sin that love and life are naturally opposed and destroyed by it. So the church in the west along with Scripture distinguishes between those deeds of the flesh that constitute sin that can more definitively separate us from God, leading to death IOW (aka mortal sin) and less serious sin (aka venial sin):

1863 Venial sin weakens charity [love]; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."

“While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.”
St Augustine

Yes, sin can still earn us death, regardless of whatever we believe. Faith, with the state of grace it obtains, is not some kind of get-out-of-hell-free-card. We don’t become complacent about sin now, as if we should just congratulate ourselves on continuously admitting to it, and stop there, but rather we enjoy the status of children of God who are finally able, and expected, to be overcoming sin, by His power, with our participation in His life.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Alright-and I’m not at all sure what Luther was trying to get at here. If he’s saying that, as long as we believe, were saved regardless of what we do, that would be nonsense. Or that our salvation depends strictly on our level of trusting that our sins are forgiven-that would likewise be nonsense. Faith means oneness with God and that relationship/union is the basis of justice or righteousness for man and engenders His righteousness in us, so that there’s potentially less and less unrighteousness left to condemn us. Jesus died while we were yet sinners but we’re not saved in spite of our sins rather were saved unto sinlessness. The confusion and waffling would be on the part of someone who says, “We’re going to continue to sin anyway so get over it; sin can’t affect the salvation of a believer”. What does Sola Fide really mean to say? Does it mean that, if we have faith then we’ll also have works, including more righteousness/less sin? But if so, does that righteousness really even matter anyway according to Luther’s understanding of Sola Fide and grace? Does sin, for all practical purposes, not matter for a believer? I think the answer “no, it doesn’t matter” might honestly reflect Sola Fide -and that, incidentally, explains why Luther would throw out the sacrament of confession/reconciliation. If we’re already forgiven before we sin, there’s no reason to even acknowledge the sin; sin’s inevitable anyway after all.

God, alone, can save man. We cannot justify and save ourselves; that’s a free gift that comes as we embrace the first gift, of faith. But a justified person is a new creation, changed, not merely forgiven. He possesses in seedling form the life of God in himself, with the virtues of faith, hope, and love that are intrinsic to that state. He can now walk like a child of God, or not. He can return to the flesh; He can turn away from God. Remaining in Him is not a matter of simply professing to ourselves and others that we’re in Him but is integrally interwoven with and inseparable from the righteousness that should be part and parcel of that relationship in the overall sense even as we acknowledge imperfection and the sin that still occurs. But we’re on a journey, a journey to perfection, a journey to ever more nearness to Him, a journey to be perfected in love to put it another way-and that must be the road we’re on- and the goal- as it’s a journey that we participate in, that we’re to take more and more responsibility in making.

IMO the EO and Catholic position handle the matter of sin correctly. While sinlessness is technically possible by virtue of union with Him (He never created us to sin after all), sinless perfection is not expected in this life. But we’re to be on that road, to that perfection, again, to that likeness with God and certainly not wallowing in such grave sin that love and life are naturally opposed and destroyed by it. So the church in the west along with Scripture distinguishes between those deeds of the flesh that constitute sin that can more definitively separate us from God, leading to death IOW (aka mortal sin) and less serious sin (aka venial sin):

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."

“While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.”
St Augustine

Yes, sin can still earn us death, regardless of whatever we believe. Faith, with the state of grace it obtains, is not some kind of get-out-of-hell-free-card. We don’t become complacent about sin now, as if we should just congratulate ourselves on continuously admitting to it, and stop there, but rather we enjoy the status of children of God who are finally able, and expected, to be overcoming sin, by His power, with our participation in His life.

I linked to the full letter he sent to Philip Melancholic in my post. It is, first and foremost, a pastoral letter telling Melancthon about things like Absolution. In the case of private confession and absolution, Luther tells Philip that he can only pronounce absolution on sins that are confessed to him. And then also speaks of what he believes are bad and harmful practices. For example Luther condemns the idea of mandated priestly celibacy, and denies that is sinful for a priest to marry. This is the sort of thing that he likely has in mind by "imaginary sin". Rather Christ came to save us from real sin, not imaginary sin. If the Faithful are tortured in their conscience by imaginary sins they are not hearing the true forgiveness of sins that is in Jesus Christ; and so the Christian--and the Christian Confessor--must bear real, not imaginary sin. Which is to say, I must recognize that which is truly sinful in myself and not just some imaginary sin.

To bring this into a more modern context. You know those sorts of modern churches that say that women can't wear pants, or that men can't have facial hair, or who try and regulate what people watch on television, or what foods they can eat, etc. That's imaginary sin. And such imaginary sin makes us forget about real sin. Real sin, not imaginary sin, separates us from God; and thus we must confess and acknowledge and preach forgiveness of real sin, not imaginary.

To that end Luther says that faith in Christ is greater than all real sin; not because we can live however we want and as long as we "believe in Jesus" we will get to heaven. Luther in other places makes clear that mortal sin and faith cannot co-exist together; for sin seeks to choke and kill faith and therefore living in sin will shipwreck us. Faith in Christ is greater than all real sin because in the Gospel there is all forgiveness of all sin, "Where sin abounds grace abounds all the more", not as a license or excuse to go on sinning, but as the good news of the mercy and forgiveness that cleanses the conscience and justifies us before God on Christ's account.

Can the guilty conscience love one's neighbor? Or does the guilty conscience instead continue to think of itself and how to justify itself? Do I feed my neighbor out of love, or out of guilt and fear of hell? And of these two, which is truly the good work that we should walk in (Ephesians 2:10)?

You aren't going to find in Luther or the Lutheran Confessions the idea that we can just live however we want and still "be saved" simply because we got our golden ticket by opening the right Wonka chocolate bar.

The charges of licentiousness and antinomianism are false charges that have been made against us Lutherans for the last five centuries; and we have consistently denied. But these false charges are still to this day continually made.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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I linked to the full letter he sent to Philip Melancholic in my post. It is, first and foremost, a pastoral letter telling Melancthon about things like Absolution. In the case of private confession and absolution, Luther tells Philip that he can only pronounce absolution on sins that are confessed to him. And then also speaks of what he believes are bad and harmful practices. For example Luther condemns the idea of mandated priestly celibacy, and denies that is sinful for a priest to marry. This is the sort of thing that he likely has in mind by "imaginary sin". Rather Christ came to save us from real sin, not imaginary sin. If the Faithful are tortured in their conscience by imaginary sins they are not hearing the true forgiveness of sins that is in Jesus Christ; and so the Christian--and the Christian Confessor--must bear real, not imaginary sin. Which is to say, I must recognize that which is truly sinful in myself and not just some imaginary sin.
Certainly there were plenty of valid objections that Luther was and should've been concerned about. I don't know that the mandate for priestly celibacy made marriage a sin, however. That's a practice in the west and parts of the east, while celibate bishops are still mandated in all those churches I believe. The CC considers it to be a practice, not dogma, and as such is something that could be changed, in fact.
Can the guilty conscience love one's neighbor? Or does the guilty conscience instead continue to think of itself and how to justify itself? Do I feed my neighbor out of love, or out of guilt and fear of hell? And of these two, which is truly the good work that we should walk in (Ephesians 2:10)?
No, and love is the antidote for sin-while the guilty conscience is not a bad thing-to show us where we're failing to love. That's the purpose of the Law, of course. I'll quote Basil of Caesarea again here:
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

Love should be the goal of every Christian. The Church even teaches that we'll be judged on our love, quoting another believer in the catechism. Man is obligated to love and yet cannot fulfill such an obligation by his own attempts; the doorway to it is grace, from God's initiative as we reciprocate in returning the love that's been shown to us. That love, for God and neighbor, is what has been missing in man since Eden, and what God has been patiently preparing man for ever since. It's our true justice or righteousness, while slipping into mechanical or legalistic attempts at being righteous are an all too easy and human potential threat. Vanity, for one thing, doesn't go away easily.
The charges of licentiousness and antinomianism are false charges that have been made against us Lutherans for the last five centuries; and we have consistently denied. But these false charges are still to this day continually made.
Understood. But that confusion seems to be almost inevitable with the doctrine of Sola Fide. It almost seems like one thing's given with one hand while taken away by the other. I don't know how to reconcile that doctrine well with the continued obligation for man to be personally righteousness, not merely by imputation.
 
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Certainly there were plenty of valid objections that Luther was and should've been concerned about. I don't know that the mandate for priestly celibacy made marriage a sin, however. That's a practice in the west and parts of the east, while celibate bishops are still mandated in all those churches I believe. The CC considers it to be a practice, not dogma, and as such is something that could be changed, in fact.
No, and love is the antidote for sin-while the guilty conscience is not a bad thing-to show us where we're failing to love. That's the purpose of the Law, of course. I'll quote Basil of Caesarea again here:
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

Love should be the goal of every Christian. The Church even teaches that we'll be judged on our love, quoting another believer in the catechism. Man is obligated to love and yet cannot fulfill such an obligation by his own attempts; the doorway to it is grace, from God's initiative as we reciprocate in returning the love that's been shown to us. That love, for God and neighbor, is what has been missing in man since Eden, and what God has been patiently preparing man for ever since. It's our true justice or righteousness, while slipping into mechanical or legalistic attempts at being righteous are an all too easy and human potential threat. Vanity, for one thing, doesn't go away easily.
Understood. But that confusion seems to be almost inevitable with the doctrine of Sola Fide. It almost seems like one thing's given with one hand while taken away by the other. I don't know how to reconcile that doctrine well with the continued obligation for man to be personally righteousness, not merely by imputation.

That quote from Basil. That's it. That's it right there. That's the whole point here. Love IS the goal. But sin inhibits that. We don't love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. We don't love our neighbor as ourselves.

But we should. And that's what God wants. That's why grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone matters. Because as long as you put a heavy yolk upon the back of the weak, they will collapse in suffering and pain. And the man crushed beneath such a weight is of no use to his neighbor who is equally crushed beneath the same weight. But the yolk is lifted, the weight is released, and the person is made free to now walk, and run, and speak, and live in love. The Law is that weight, on account of sin; and no matter how hard we try to lift that weight by our own mortal strength it will never even budge. We are weak. But Christ has, by His small finger, by His perfect and righteous obedience, His sufferings, His death, and His resurrection cast off the weight, and now says "Live!" and the dead rise and live because He has vanquished hell and death.

It is precisely that fear of punishment or desire for reward are meaningless; but only the good work for the sake of the good work itself. Love for love's sake. That is the way of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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That quote from Basil. That's it. That's it right there. That's the whole point here. Love IS the goal. But sin inhibits that. We don't love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. We don't love our neighbor as ourselves.

But we should. And that's what God wants. That's why grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone matters. Because as long as you put a heavy yolk upon the back of the weak, they will collapse in suffering and pain. And the man crushed beneath such a weight is of no use to his neighbor who is equally crushed beneath the same weight. But the yolk is lifted, the weight is released, and the person is made free to now walk, and run, and speak, and live in love. The Law is that weight, on account of sin; and no matter how hard we try to lift that weight by our own mortal strength it will never even budge. We are weak. But Christ has, by His small finger, by His perfect and righteous obedience, His sufferings, His death, and His resurrection cast off the weight, and now says "Live!" and the dead rise and live because He has vanquished hell and death.

It is precisely that fear of punishment or desire for reward are meaningless; but only the good work for the sake of the good work itself. Love for love's sake. That is the way of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
Well, I'm not going to argue with any of that! :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Understood. But that confusion seems to be almost inevitable with the doctrine of Sola Fide. It almost seems like one thing's given with one hand while taken away by the other. I don't know how to reconcile that doctrine well with the continued obligation for man to be personally righteousness, not merely by imputation.

I wanted to focus on this. Because I think Sola Fide may be one of the most misunderstood ideas that emerged out of the Reformation.

The faith in faith alone is not mental assent to theological propositions. Sola Fide does not mean that we are guaranteed heaven because we signed our names on a dotted line on some kind of contract with God by agreeing to a certain set of theological propositions. This faith is that faith which receives and apprehends God's gifts. Like an infant trusts and clings to its mother for life as she nurtures and gives life from her own body, so do we trust and cling to Christ and all He has done and are fed and nurtured by Him, as He feeds us and sustains us and gives us Himself and His life in Word and Sacrament.

Justification through faith alone is not, "I am righteous because I have believed the right things". Justification through faith is God is justifying us by His grace by giving us the gift of Christ's righteousness--present tense. I am justified because God declares me just in Jesus Christ, He declares me just in my baptism, He declares me just in the Eucharist, he declares me just in the Gospel, he declares me just when my sins are declared forgiven in Holy Absolution. God declares me righteous on Christ's account, which is received by faith. And while I am justified through this faith alone which is from God, this faith is not itself alone--faith does not exist in an empty room. While this justification is received passively through faith, it is then in that justification that there is "New Obedience"; where without faith all our works are as filthy rags, good works in faith--works of love--which flow from a renewed and regenerate life mean faith exists with good works.

That is why Luther himself wrote,

"... faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words." - From Luther's 1522 Introduction to St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans

Faith does not proceed from good works, but rather good works proceed from faith; it is from the regenerate heart of faith which is from God that flows good works.

This is why the Apostle says both that it is by grace that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works so none may boast. And that we have been created for good works in Christ Jesus which were beforehand made for us to walk in.

And so Faith alone is not the absence of good works. Faith alone is the presence of good works borne of God's grace and Spirit. And the Apostle tells us what true good works are,

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
" - 1 Corinthians 13

"For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another." - Galatians 5:13-15

And this is how we Lutherans therefore understand St. James when he says "faith without works is dead". Faith does not ignore the plight of the hungry, faith does not despise our neighbor and brother and sister. Faith does not deny love; rather faith loves.

Faith that does not love is not faith, but faithlessness.
Nevertheless, it is the faith we have received from God, not the works that come from faith, that receives righteousness from God on Christ's account (which is what Lutherans mean by Justification). Rather, it is this faith that, out of the righteousness we have received spurns us to love and to live righteously in obedience to Christ our Lord toward our neighbor.

Such obedience comes not from the fear of the Law, but from the transformed heart of flesh that loves. So that it is the Holy Spirit, bringing faith into us, and now bearing forth through us, by His grace and power, good works, love, and active righteous obedience.

Thus faith receives righteousness, and love works out that righteousness. So that the Christian lives in Christ by faith, and lives in their neighbor by love.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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I wanted to focus on this. Because I think Sola Fide may be one of the most misunderstood ideas that emerged out of the Reformation
Sorry, meant to get back earlier but life's been a bit hectic lately. Anyway, I think one issue is that Protestants don't necessarily agree on their understanding of SF or it's outworkings. It can be somewhat inherently confusing IMO.
Justification through faith is God is justifying us by His grace by giving us the gift of Christ's righteousness--present tense. I am justified because God declares me just in Jesus Christ, He declares me just in my baptism, He declares me just in the Eucharist, he declares me just in the Gospel, he declares me just when my sins are declared forgiven in Holy Absolution. God declares me righteous on Christ's account, which is received by faith. And while I am justified through this faith alone which is from God, this faith is not itself alone--faith does not exist in an empty room. While this justification is received passively through faith, it is then in that justification that there is "New Obedience"; where without faith all our works are as filthy rags, good works in faith--works of love--which flow from a renewed and regenerate life mean faith exists with good works.
Alright, and what Catholicism would emphasize is that we’re not only forgiven and declared or imputed to be righteous but are actually made righteous/given righteousness at justification. And your understanding apparently does not conflict with that.

Man cannot justify himself, only God can do so. The very act of faith, believing in God now over man or any created being, believing in His existence first of all, then of His perfect wisdom, His goodness, trustworthiness, mercifulness, power, and love, in His rightful authority as God, is a complete game-changer for man. Faith is the very first right step and so pleases God immensely. It opens the door to the life of grace, life by the Spirit, the door to Him. It’s to begin to feed from the Tree of Life, as man is meant to do but which involves a choice: to reach up and grab the fruit, and be nourished by it. We’re to make the choice now that Adam failed to make then, as God deemed it right, at this point in history with the advent of His Son, to provide that opportunity now, a choice which itself is impossible apart from grace, but grace that we can nonetheless resist. Faith, hope, and love are all gifts, and human choices to accept and act upon them.

To the extent that we embrace them, however, we’re entering into God’s life, now in communion with Him, a life of righteousness, the “righteousness of God” as Scripture puts it. On our own we only have self-righteousness, born of pride, which is no authentic righteousness at all; in Eden man had just taken on the role of determining righteousness for himself, becoming his own “god” while dismissing the real one in the process. Faith makes God our God again.

And from that first nascent step into right stead with his Creator, man is now equipped to work out his salvation together with Him who works in us. That’s the major difference between the old and new covenants. The first is all about my ability to demonstrate my righteousness to God first of all while the second is all about our need for God first of all in order to attain the righteous that the law and prophets can only testify to, but cannot themselves realize in us. This is the righteousness that man was made for, that flows naturally from the direct, intimate relationship with God that man was made for.

I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.”
Jer 31:33-34

And we must remain in Him. Grace remains resistible throughout our lives. But to the extent that we accept and remain in it, that grace will grow along with its fruits, and our salvation is ensured as God continuously appeals to and draws us to move ever nearer to Him, and therefore into ever greater justice as we increasingly will what He wills.

Man’s true justice is realized to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. Faith is the ticket onto that journey, the first step towards that goal for fallen man. And at the end of the day God will give us His determination on how well we did at accomplishing it, with His grace. Anyway, I’m not arguing here so much as laying down the Catholic position and comparing notes.
 
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