Should we sin 'boldly' ???

[QvQ]

Mmmm... I cant imagine Satan repenting...

Be a cold day in hell, I reckon. Suppose the devil is predestined to eternal damnation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Luke 22
25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

No, it's actually sin to not follow this example, it's an example of missing the mark on a foundational issue.

The church has ignored this teaching for the most part and set up a structure where there are those who exercise authority and lord it over others, it's definitely a sin.

Did you have any other examples of what appears to be just a weakness, but not a sin?

 

[fhansen]

I guess that depends on how you define faith.

If faith is a gift from God rather than a mindset of some sort, then if God decides to eradicate the consequences of all sin for His chosen, who are we to argue ???

Of course God can do whatever He wants, even if it’s inconsistent with the position He had against sin/injustice since the beginning. It’s just that the gospel has never been about eliminating the consequences of sin first of all but of forgiving sin and empowering us to now overcome it, the only right and authentic way, by virtue of union with Him. Then the consequences, the death/condemnation that sin should otherwise earn us, are naturally eliminated as justice is then actually being restored to His creation, to us. That communion/fellowship with God, which man is made for, and which Adam dismissed, and the grace and righteousness that are intrinsic to it, is the purpose and consequence of faith.

It’s a journey with Him, which is to begin here, in this life, and which we’re to remain on, or get back on if we slip off, and which is marked by progress in goodness, righteousness, sanctity, justice and certainly not by persistence in wanton, serious deeds of the flesh, i.e. “sin that leads to death”, sin so grave as to oppose love and destroy it in us, as it’s been put.

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:22

Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, but to take away our sin, not to leave us in it even as God is patient in the work of overcoming it. Faith is not a license to sin, and there should never be a wedge driven between faith and personal righteousness as if the two can be separated or are mutually exclusive in some way. Faith is the true means to true righteousness, the means to love to put it best as it places us in right stead-the right state of being- with the Source of that love, or else it's worthless.

 

[Halbhh]

I quote Martin Luther...

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world... ” Martin Luther.

No. And by itself the fragment quote isolated by itself apparently isn't what Luther meant in context, because in context Luther was addressing some Catholic practices and claims, in this hyperbolic wording:

e.g. "When Luther wrote “love God and sin boldly,” it was 1521 and it had only been several months since he stood trial for his reformation. The quote occurs in a letter from Luther to Melanchthon, which Luther wrote in the Wartburg castle, hiding out to avoid execution. Obviously, he had not worked out every issue of the divide between the old faith and the Reformation. And if it was hard for Luther, it was doubly hard for his advocates back in Wittenberg without their leader.

The letter in question is actually only a fragment. There is no salutation or much context, and so it drops into a conversation midstream. Melanchthon is the formal cause of Luther’s comments, as he was agitated about the radicalized ideas of some in Wittenberg, who wanted to burn all traces of Catholicism out of the church. The majority of church activities before Luther were now being said, not only to be misguided and wrong, but sinful for all who had participated. Melanchthon was, by nature, a man of weaker constitution and this language gave him heartburn.

So Melanchthon wrote a letter, now lost, asking Luther to comment on the sinfulness of Catholic practices: things such as celibacy, fasting, communion in one kind. Melanchthon seems to wonder if these things, though misguided in Catholicism, were themselves sinful. Couldn’t these practices be done faithfully for the Gospel?

The letter fragment from Luther, then, drops right into these subjects. In other words, the subject is not fundamentally about Luther’s view of sanctification, but how the Gospel works its fingers into the traditional piety of former Catholics. Paragraph after paragraph deals with celibacy, monasticism, communion, and what Luther calls the “fictitious works” of the pope. Luther also challenges the hardliners in Wittenberg for assuming they are achieving purity. So the message is not to “sin boldly” in sanctification but to grasp the basic grammar of justification by faith: works contribute nothing to justification, so stop trying to add them."

More here:
Did Luther Really Tell Us to ‘Love God and Sin Boldly’?

Just an fyi -- in our Lutheran Church we studied the Reformation, and also Martin Luther's wrongs, like the vengeful anger at Jews that refused to hear the gospel, the provocative rhetoric Luther often indulged in, and such. So, we see him as not a good example to follow, but then, if you focus on the just errors alone, no mortal human other than Christ would be.

 

[fhansen]

works contribute nothing to justification, so stop trying to add them."

And this is the basic error, a very serious one, that stems from the doctrine of Sola Fide and might just lead to Luther's statement. What we do once we're in God's fold, existing in His grace, and not by works of the Law, counts towards eternal life. Sanctification and the justification that begins it all are part and parcel of the same operation: making man just, beginning with a seedling amount of faith, hope, and love that are confirmed and grown as we embrace and express them. So everything done by the Spirit, as we truly remain in Him, working out our salvation, results in eternal life:

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:7-8

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

It all begins with faith, in response to grace.

 

[Halbhh]

I vote your post a winner there, because it's so helpful for any unfamiliar with this.

On a side topic, perhaps there is a difference between what Luther meant by 'Justification' and the Catholic catechism meaning. 2 different senses of meaning.

Luther's meaning seems to me to be simply that our initial acceptance by God is solely alone through Grace, only by faith alone, and even our continuing acceptance by God, even though works/good fruit that lasts is required of us.
I'm thinking this is what "justification" would be to Luther -- only a continual unconditional necessity that no matter our fruits (which are also required), still we are only acceptable through Grace through faith in Christ.
Now maybe that's not what Luther thought (I'm just supposing), but it's how I see it for us, regardless of what Luther thought.

And this is the basic error, a very serious one, that stems from the doctrine of Sola Fide and might just lead to Luther's statement. What we do once we're in God's fold, existing in His grace, and not by works of the Law, counts towards eternal life, Sanctification and the justification that begins it all are part and parcel of the same operation: making man just, beginning with a seedling amount of faith, hope, and love that are confirmed and grown as we embrace and express them. So everything done by the Spirit, as we truly remain in Him, working out our salvation, results in eternal life:

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:7-8

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

It all begins with faith, in response to grace.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, it's actually sin to not follow this example, it's an example of missing the mark on a foundational issue.

The church has ignored this teaching for the most part and set up a structure where there are those who exercise authority and lord it over others, it's definitely a sin.

Did you have any other examples of what appears to be just a weakness, but not a sin?

Sorry but you are correct and that is what I was trying to convey.

Leaders must consider themselves servants (as less) - this is an example of apparent weakness that is not sin. Same as not looking for the best seat.

 

[Carl Emerson]

And this is the basic error, a very serious one, that stems from the doctrine of Sola Fide and might just lead to Luther's statement. What we do once we're in God's fold, existing in His grace, and not by works of the Law, counts towards eternal life, Sanctification and the justification that begins it all are part and parcel of the same operation: making man just, beginning with a seedling amount of faith, hope, and love that are confirmed and grown as we embrace and express them. So everything done by the Spirit, as we truly remain in Him, working out our salvation, results in eternal life:

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:7-8

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

It all begins with faith, in response to grace.

Yes - and some have a skewed idea of what faith actually is.

Faith is not an action - it is a gift.

Even little children enter the Kingdom by faith.

Faith comes form hearing the Word of Christ.

 

[BBAS 64]

Got the glasses?

 

[fhansen]

Yes - and some have a skewed idea of what faith actually is.

Faith is not an action - it is a gift.

Even little children enter the Kingdom by faith.

Faith comes form hearing the Word of Christ.

Yes, faith-as well as any works we may do after justification (ref Eph 2:10, for example), as well as hope and love, are gifts. But they are gifts that we can always reject; man can turn back away from God at any point even as grace is necessary for us to even begin to turn to Him. And this is most likely a point of disagreement between us. The elect will persevere to the end, but we cannot predict our own perseverance with the 100% certainty that God, alone, has.

 

[Halbhh]

"Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!"

heh heh

Got the glasses?

View attachment 317319

 

[Halbhh]

The elect will persevere to the end, but we cannot predict our own perseverance with the 100% certainty that God, alone, has.

I know it's an entirely different topic, but how to you see Free Will then, in view of that.
To me the perseverance of us mortal humans isn't a sure thing, but instead God sends extra suffering on those that are prodigal, to aid them, to help them repent. But still it's up to them whether to repent, even with that aid. So, the perseverance is God's, not ours. He perseveres -- keeps helping us, right up till the end. And if we keep repenting and learning, then over time we walk better and better...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sorry but you are correct and that is what I was trying to convey.

Leaders must consider themselves servants (as less) - this is an example of apparent weakness that is not sin. Same as not looking for the best seat.

Isn't that related to pride however?

 

[fhansen]

I know it's an entirely different topic, but how to you see Free Will then, in view of that.
To me the perseverance of us mortal humans isn't a sure thing, but instead God sends extra suffering on those that are prodigal, to aid them, to help them repent. But still it's up to them whether to repent, even with that aid. So, the perseverance is God's, not ours. He perseveres -- keeps helping us, right up till the end. And if we keep repenting and learning, then over time we walk better and better...

At the end of the day, grace is resistible. Meaning that we cannot do it without him but we can still refuse to do his will. He gives us the necessary grace but we are still the wild card.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

One of the best blogs on Luther:

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Search results for sin boldly

In Him,

Bill

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, faith-as well as any works we may do after justification (ref Eph 2:10, for example), as well as hope and love, are gifts. But they are gifts that we can always reject; man can turn back away from God at any point even as grace is necessary for us to even begin to turn to Him. And this is most likely a point of disagreement between us. The elect will persevere to the end, but we cannot predict our own perseverance with the 100% certainty that God, alone, has.

Romans 11:29
for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Isn't that related to pride however?

Yes Humility looks weak...

 

[fhansen]

Romans 11:29
for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Sure, for whoever “they” are. The Bible refers, however, to those who’ve been called, who’ve come to the knowledge of Christ but later returned to their own mire, who’ve tasted of the heavenly gift and later rejected it, who can be a branch grafted in and cut back off, who've returned to the flesh, who failed to wash their robes, who failed to endure. We play a part, according to Gods wisdom, in ‘making our calling and election sure’.

God created no one to be a sinner; sin opposes His will and is only possible due to the abuse of the freedom given to created beings. If His intention was to totally override that freedom and decide for us then He would’ve just done that at the beginning, rather than patiently preparing and working with humanity down through the centuries..

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes Humility looks weak...

And when I am weak, He is strong.

However, to God, humility is not a weakness.

 

[atpollard]

I quote Martin Luther...

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world... ” Martin Luther.

Yup.
We should.