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Should the Christian Bible consist only of the four gospels?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by danbuter, Feb 3, 2018.

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  1. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    By which law of hermeneutics were you able to remove the words I put in bold to change the clear meaning of 2 Time 3:16-17?

    Where did you get the idea that Paul is only referring to clergymen and not laymen?

    And 2 Peter was written at least 7 years after the latest of the dates for Paul's epistles you provided.
    So, did you have a point with bringing those dates up.
     
  2. oOKnights TemplarOo

    oOKnights TemplarOo Member

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    I was referring to my post on 2 Tim 3:16 not yours as being hermeneutilos

    2 Tim 3:17 I clearly provided the answer.

    Sorry there was an error in uploading the post questioned, about half of it never uploaded. What I meant to type was that Revelations was written after 2 Peter, so clearly not all of the bible had been written at that time.

    How did you deduce 2 Peter was written at least 7 years after the dates of Paul's letters? As you'd have to go outside of the bible for that sort of information. Therefore making the doctrine of Sola Scriptura null & void.
     
  3. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was sent directly to the Jews, fact.

    A lot of what Jesus said was aimed at the Jews.

    Paul provides the Gentiles with a comprehensive gospel specifically for them.

    Many folk think Jesus was talking to them in the gospels, this is one mistake that people make when they read the gospels.
     
  4. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    We need all of Scripture, not just some of it. If God inspired it, then it must be important, right?

    Paul's letters (and those of the other authors) give us valuable insight into the nature of the early Church, the struggles She faced, and provide a wealth of knowledge about what the apostles thought Jesus' teaching was.

    As for the Old Testament- what Christian can go without those two thirds of Scripture? I say again- if God inspired it, it's worth our time to read it. Without the Old Testament, we have no clue why we need a savior to begin with, or who Abraham or Jonah or any of the other prophets or fathers are.

    We need all of Scripture for these reasons, and those that I didn't list.
     
  5. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1/3rd of the OT is either a direct quote or an inference from the OT. Not only that, Paul uses certain exegetical tools (like the Rules of Hillel, if you are unfamiliar with them, you can learn of them here) that are there specifically to effect context. What that means is, is that in certain situations, if you don't know what is being talked about around the OT verse being quoted in the NT, then you can't fully understand the context of what is being said in the NT.

    That said, there is something else that should be taken into consideration. When Paul said, "all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God" and then he goes on to say it can be used for instructing righteousness, correction, etc...... he was NOT talking about the NT, there was no NT at that point. His references was to what you think has been surpassed. But Paul was suggesting we use it to learn of God's will so that we can walk as He desires us to walk. Even in Acts 15, the largely misunderstood "letter to the gentiles" lists off 4 things and then says, "for Moses is read in the synagogues on Sabbath." Since "Moses" is being used as an idiomatic word to denote the Torah (Law, instructions) then even the Acts 15 letter is saying, "start with these 4 things and then go hear the Torah read so you can learn the rest."

    Yeshua, Jesus... didn't surpass the OT... what He did was come and walk it out perfectly, as God desires, thus becoming the model that we all can follow in righteousness.
     
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  6. Sister glorious

    Sister glorious "Ad Dei gloriam"!!!

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    Personally I am confident of the teachings of Jesus.I've been healed through reading how the Lord healed others.His story is for me truly awe inspiring. To have suffered and not called the mighty angels to vaporize those Roman soldiers who abused Him..that is true obedience to His Father.And bravery and dedication and love.
    Now as to Paul his teachings are in my opinion different in the sense that he was trying to establish churches and therefore had to set order and rules and a foundation that is based on Christ's teachings but influenced by Paul's personality and life experiences when Paul was merely a man whereas the Lord is the Son of the Creator.. so to sum it up I trust Jesus's teachings but have taken issue with some things taught by Paul.
     
  7. Eutychus2018

    Eutychus2018 New Member

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    Jude said, that we are to, "earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE delivered unto the saints." Jude 3. We know that faith as two speakings of God, leading to one gospel. Check this out from Hebrews 1:1...
    "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son..." "spake in time past" "spoken in these last days" two speakings, one God. One Bible. One Word of God.

    There are two speakings, the speakings of God to the fathers of Israel, or in other words, the Old Testament. The second speaking is God, through Jesus, speaking to us today, or the New Testament.

    Both are equally, the Word of God. But we are living in these last times, under the guidance of the New Testament. But we mustn't ignore the Old Testament. Check out Paul here, with, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4.

    As to Paul versus Jesus...there is no such thing in God or the Word. Here is how Paul put it, and insofar as God declared it (back in Hebrews verse 1) to be a part of Jesus' speaking to us today, Paul's words are the words of Jesus,

    "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that THE THINGS I WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF JESUS." 1 Cor 14:37. If that isn't sufficient, I say what Paul said, "If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant". 1 Cor 14:38.
     
  8. oOKnights TemplarOo

    oOKnights TemplarOo Member

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    In Mark 7:31, Jesus left the Gentile region of Tyre and Sidon after responding to the faith confession of a Gentile woman by fulfilling her petition to heal her child (Mk 7:24-30). Jesus then moved east across the Galilee into the Gentile region of the Decapolis for the second time (Mk 5:20; 7:31) where He healed a deaf man (Mk 7:31-37). Matthew does not identify the location of the second miracle feeding, but Mark seems to suggest that it took place soon after the healing of the deaf man in the Gentile region of the Decapolis by the statement "In those days," meaning the days associated with the previous healing.

    Mark 8:1-10 ~The Second Miracle Feeding of the Four Thousand

    The second miracle feeding is very much like the first except for the location, which is significantly in Gentile territory, and the crowd was certainly of mixed Jewish and Gentile peoples.

    The Gospel According to St. Luke is written by the only Gentile, Holy Spirit inspired New Testament writer for his target audience of Gentile Christians.
     
  9. Eutychus2018

    Eutychus2018 New Member

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    MEMO;
    "he was NOT talking about the NT, there was no NT at that point". Correct, Paul was not talking ABOUT the New Testament...he was too busy WRITING the New Testament, or at least a large portion of it.

    When Jesus, Peter, James and John stood on the mount of Transfiguration, and God spoke to them, He said, "This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased....HEAR YE HIM." Matt 17:5. This experience was repeated in both Mark and Luke.

    God did not say, "Hear Moses" (that is, the law), nor did he say, "Hear Ezekiel" (that is, the prophets). He said HEAR YE HIM.

    Jesus' own words mirror that, with, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" Matt 5:17.

    And never forget Matt. 11:13, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied UNTIL JOHN". To prophecy is to, "...speak unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort" 1 Cor. 14:3...The prophets and the law stopped speaking, in reference to how we live our lives, and our relationship with God...with John the Baptist. From that point on, it is Jesus, in the Word, in us, and the Holy Spirit in us doing the talking, the speaking.
     
  10. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Revelation, not Revelations. And I am sorry but I have searched a few of your responses and lo and behold you are quoting sites regularly and passing it off as your own which is why you are unable to answer the question. There is no problem with quoting a source but there is a level of dishonesty when you do it over and over and never at least reference the source.

    SCRIPTURE ALONE ("SOLA SCRIPTURA") - Scripture Catholic
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  11. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus said a lot of things that even His disciples did not understand at the time. Jesus spoke a lot in parables also.

    I do think that the rest of the New Testament is important for several reasons.

    1. The Holy Spirit was not given to believers until after Pentecost, which is after Jesus death.
    2. The rest of the New Testament shows how both Jews and Gentiles implemented their new found faith in Christ as well as how the new churches were formed.
    3. Paul, Peter and John also talk about how their lives and faith became even stronger after Jesus death and what they learned by walking in Him.
    4. Some of the questions about Jew and Gentile are cleared up.
    5. Details about how the Apostles lived their lives in Christ is shown.

    Yes, it is well worth the time spent reading.
     
  12. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    From Scripture itself.
    Peter said at the beginning of 2 Peter that he must shortly put off his tabernacle. And it is already known that he died somewhere around 65-68 ad.
    I don't use extra-biblical sources to determine doctrine.
    Finding the date of Peter's death is not determining doctrine.
    Or don't you believe the NT is Scripture?
     
  13. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    The matter of canon was settled long ago by the blood, sweat, and tears of Holy men of God throughout the history of the Church beginning with St. Paul. Throw out the Old Testament and you throw out the prophecies of the coming Messiah, and nullify the teachings of Christ, even;

    Matt 5:17Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

    The New Testament is also full of Old Testament quotations, and without it, the New would make no sense, neither to ancient nor modern readers.
     
  14. oOKnights TemplarOo

    oOKnights TemplarOo Member

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    I have never implied anything of the sort. I have come across many here that source from others. I can defend, but if a source puts forward a point better than I and it is in accordance with the Magisterium I will use it! Be it the early Church Fathers, the bible! Or the pope! You can keep researching, for if it sends you to the source then fantastic. Reference the source yet you find it without me referring to it!
     
  15. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When you correct someone else's spelling, you had best ensure that your own spelling is correct.
     
  16. danbuter

    danbuter Active Member Supporter

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    I do understand where everyone is coming from, but what you just quoted is Paul saying, "Believe me because I say so."
     
  17. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord Supporter

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    Copy and pasting and passing it off as your own is not pointing someone to a source, its called copy and pasting. In academics its called plagiarism. And it is not aiding research it is hindering research. Besides, citing a good source lends credibility to your argument, and does not diminish your intellect. If this is an innocent mistake be sure and go back to cite your sources. These websites contain sources that are under copyright and are used by permission by a website. The authors no doubt worked long and hard to provide the information to the public so the least you can do is give them credit. Especially when you lift entire paragraphs of someone else's work such as this:

    THE GOSPEL OF MARK - The Mystery Begins to be Unveiled
     
  18. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Actually it wasn't the spelling I was correcting. But thanks anyhow.
     
  19. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord Supporter

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    Good question. The best answer in brief is that the Old Testament points to Christ. If you read closely you can find type and shadow of Christ in almost if not all books of the Old Testament. Go back and read Genesis and you will find type and shadow through the book and that is just one of 39 books.

    I think if I am hearing you correctly feel that some church bodies emphasize Paul over and against the Gospels. If they are, then they are in error. And it for this reason, where did Paul get his Gospel? He got it directly from Jesus so Paul is in no way contradicting what Jesus taught. Second, the epistles are generally more doctrinally based and so there are issues that Paul is addressing that Christ had not in the four Gospels. [Staff edit]. And while folks like Jean-Dominic Crossan are clearly brilliant, there is an answer and it doesn't start with the Bible must be wrong. A good treatment of the canon is the book by F.F. Bruce called "The Canon of Scripture".

    So instead of looking at the OT as a book with an angry God and a bunch of unrelated stories look for Christ in every page and you will be surprised how fruitful the OT can be. And the same for the rest of the NT. For in its pages even when there is a rebuke there is also grace and mercy.

    I hope this helps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2018
  20. Eutychus2018

    Eutychus2018 New Member

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    Eutychus...
    I feel it was something more than men with pen in hand. In fact, I place the authorship of the New Testament squarely in the hands of the Holy Spirit. For there are New Testament prophecies in the New Testament as well. Here are a couple...

    "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE." John 14:26. The 4 gospels are the product of the memories of the authors.

    "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME..." John 15:26. The Holy Spirit 'testified' in these men, and they wrote the testimony thereof.

    "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: AND HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME" John 16:13. The Holy Spirit guided the authors in life, and even caused them to shew us things to come, that is to say, in the future. Among those things, is the New Testament.


    And one more, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to SHEW his servants things which must shortly COME TO PASS." Rev 1:1.

    That is how the New Testament came to be...instead of speaking directly to prophets, as He did in the Old Testament, God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within the spirits of the apostles and others. Their telling, in letters and to ministry members, their speaking of their experiences with the indwelling Holy Spirit, directly led to the New Testament.

    Let's end with an Old Testament prophecy from Isaiah...that speaks directly to the New Testament.

    "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and HIS SPIRIT HAS GATHERED THEM." Isa 34:16
     
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