Should the apocalyptic language style of the old testament be taken at face value or symbolic?

Oberamagau

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I agree that literal solar eclipses and blood moons are not what is being predicted in the olivet discourse.

The apocalyptic language of changes in the sun, moon, and stars is common in OT, and is associated with God's judgment on nations. Thus, the changes in sun, moon, and stars following the destruction of Jerusalem as outlined in the olivet discourse should be interpreted no differently than in the OT.


Judgment against Egypt.

Ezekiel 32:1-2, 7-8 In the twelfth year, on the first day of the twelfth month, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, take up a lament for Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him
When I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars. I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you,
and I will bring darkness upon your land


Judgment against Babylon
Isaiah 13:1, 10 This is the burden against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz received: For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.

Judgment against Israel
Amos 8:2,9 So the LORD said to me, “The end has come for My people Israel; I will no longer spare them.” And in that day, declares the Lord GOD, I will make the sun go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the daytime.




The solar and lunar eclipse data came From Wikipedia, which get's its data from NASA.



You stated, generically, that there were no celestial signs in 70ad. If we are going to be literal about it, then the data from NASA shows this to be incorrect.
When I asked where you got that information - I know you got it from WIKI. What I want to know is how in the world did you tie a lunar and solar eclipse that was only visible in the ocean off the Philippines and Brazil to those verses!
 
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claninja

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When I asked where you got that information - I know you got it from WIKI. What I want to know is how in the world did you tie a lunar and solar eclipse that was only visible in the ocean off the Philippines and Brazil to those verses!

I don't believe the apocalyptic language in the olivet discourse of changes in the sun, moon, and stars are related to the solar and lunar eclipses that occurred in 70ad.

However, In post #27 You simply stated there were no celestial signs in 70ad:

Most of all. NONE of these celestial signs occurred in AD70.

The data from NASA shows that there were in fact celestial phenomenon (lunar and solar eclipses) occurring in 70ad.
 
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Oberamagau

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I don't believe the apocalyptic language in the olivet discourse of changes in the sun, moon, and stars are related to the solar and lunar eclipses that occurred in 70ad.

However, In post #27 You simply stated there were no celestial signs in 70ad:



The data from NASA shows that there were in fact celestial phenomenon (lunar and solar eclipses) occurring in 70ad.
It's incredible to me that you would consider a lunar and solar eclipse out in the middle of two oceans as SIGNS and wonders!

The signs and wonders mentioned in Joel, Acts, and Revelation are in a worldwide context at the Day of the Lord - NOT in a 70AD or isolated location context. These signs are seen worldwide.

The Day of the Lord affects people worldwide. The SIGNS in the sun moon and stars are seen globally NOT LOCALLY or seen only out in an ocean... and NONE of it happened in 70AD Jerusalem!

The word 'heaven' in Acts 2:21, does not imply signs that are only visible off the coast of Brazil or the Philippines!

Heaven - ouranos - the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it.

Only a Preterist would twist scripture to the extent you have. I will forever be amazed at the perversions of Preterism.
 
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parousia70

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The Day of the Lord affects people worldwide. The SIGNS in the sun moon and stars are seen globally NOT LOCALLY

Do you likewise insist that on the day of Pentecost, there were Jews in Jersualem from EVERYHERE around the globe? Jews From China, Jews from Australia? India? The Americas?
Acts 2:5
"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven."

Chines & Japanese Jews? Australian Aboriginal Jews? Jews from the Native American Nations such as Navajo, Hopi? Myan & Aztec Jews? Viking Jews? Inuit Jews? Jews from Sub Saharan Africa?

EVERY Nation under Heaven had Jewish men dwelling in Jerusalem on Pentecost Day?
 
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Davy

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Incorrect, I'm not saying that all. I am saying that the parables/visions/riddles of the OT prophets are representative of future literal events, just like the parables of Jesus.

Yes... I agree with that. The Ezekiel 40-48 vision given Ezekiel is on the same order as John was given in Revelation 21 & 22.

The visions/parables/riddles of the OT prophets are like the parables of Jesus. They are prophetic and are about literal future events, but use symbolic language to prophesy of these future events.

For example, at the end of the age, the men separate the good and bad fish.

Now is this parable prophetic and about a literal future event? YES.

Is this parable literally about fish and nets? NO, the fish and nets are symbolic.


I can agree that God's Word does sometimes use symbols to describe a prophecy, but not always.

The Ezekiel 40-48 vision is not given as symbology. It is a LITERAL prophecy. They are literal events that are to occur as written, which is why there's so much physical detail attached, even the actual physical location of God's River on earth once it is returned. Clearly you have missed the Genesis 2 Scripture about God's Eden being on earth at one time, and with God's River in Eden that flowed out of His Garden and fed 4 other rivers upon the earth, two of which we still know where they are today (Euphrates and Tigris or Hiddekel).
If you don't understand this pray about it, because the Heavenly dimension is going to be revealed here, upon this earth, at Jesus' return. The world to come is not going be the same as this present world, so it's useless to try and apply the things of this world to the glory of that future world. Yet the earth is forever, like the Psalms says.

Matthew 13:48 When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down and sorted the good fish into containers, but threw the bad away.

Matthew 13:49-50 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Our Lord Jesus gave that during His Ministry. He has since given us more info about the very end of this world, and the world to come in His Revelation. There will be a "thousand years" period after His return on the 7th Trumpet. And that is when He will reign here on earth, over all nations, with His elect. That is the subject of Zechariah 14 also. Thus the wicked and Satan are not destroyed until after that future "thousand years" of Revelation 20.

You are relying on that Matthew 13:49-50 Scripture to serve a doctrine of men, rejecting further info He gave about that in His Revelation. Here's a revelation for you: this present world age does not end until after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. The new heavens and a new earth is not until the literal end of this present world age, which is when the tares are cast into the lake of fire, which is written at the end of Rev.20.

Thus, Ezekiel's vision of a future temple uses the symbols of the old covenant (literal temple building, animal sacrifices, priesthood) to prophesy of a future literal event: the formation of the body of Christ which is the real temple of God, not one made by human hands.

We'll have to wait and see about that, because the OT prophets other than Ezekiel also show Jesus returning to earth to reign over the nations. Even the angels in Acts 1 told His disciples who witnessed His ascension to Heaven that He will return in like manner as He went into Heaven. And they were upon the Mount of Olives for that, where He ascended from, and where He is prophesied to return.

Surely you don't believe that is just symbology, and instead think that our Lord Jesus isn't really going to return to this earth???

Ephesians 2:21-22 In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

Acts 7:48 However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands.

In Revelation 21:22 we are told there will be no more temple when the new Jerusalem descends from Heaven to the earth. That isn't going to happen during Christ's Millennium reign. Not yet. Daniel 8 & 9 reveals the cleansing of the sanctuary being the last works, pointing to a Millennial temple (a la Zech.6).

However, if we use the futurists interpretation that Ezekiel was talking about a literal future earthly temple building, then they should be consistent in interpreting the kingdom of heaven as a literal net catching literal fish.

Well, I am not a Futurist. I don't hold to Darby's theories of a pre-trib rapture, nor to Darby's Dispensationalism. And that is a silly idea, thinking to switch our Lord's usage of a symbol like separating fish for the actual future event of separating the wicked from His servants.

I would disagree.
Matthew 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

That is only because God 'blinded' those (Rom.11), not that our Lord's parables are impossible to grasp, for He said the eyes and ears of His disciples did hear and were blessed. In our time, we are given The Holy Spirit Comforter Who is promised to teach us all things. So we are supposed to also understand, as His disciples were given to.

So then to be consistent with your type of interpretation, You then believe being born again literally involves coming out of your mother's womb a 2nd time?

The subject was about Ezekiel's temple, not the idea of being born again per John 3.

So then you agree that the Ezekiel temple was pointing to the New Jerusalem, correct?

No, not necessarily. But I do agree it is pointing to a still existing Jerusalem on earth after... Christ's return. I believe 'some' earth changes will happen on the day of Christ's coming on the last trump. Those of us still alive will be changed at the twinkling of an eye like Apostle Paul taught. And both resurrection types will then happen, as per John 5:28-29. All will be in the "spiritual body" which Apostle Paul taught, pulling partly from Isaiah 25.
 
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claninja

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It's incredible to me that you would consider a lunar and solar eclipse out in the middle of two oceans as SIGNS and wonders!

Please read my post before responding.

Literally from the post you quoted, I stated:

"I don't believe the apocalyptic language in the olivet discourse of changes in the sun, moon, and stars are related to the solar and lunar eclipses that occurred in 70ad."

The signs and wonders mentioned in Joel, Acts, and Revelation are in a worldwide context at the Day of the Lord - NOT in a 70AD or isolated location context. These signs are seen worldwide.

The Day of the Lord affects people worldwide. The SIGNS in the sun moon and stars are seen globally NOT LOCALLY or seen only out in an ocean... and NONE of it happened in 70AD Jerusalem!

The word 'heaven' in Acts 2:21, does not imply signs that are only visible off the coast of Brazil or the Philippines!

Heaven - ouranos - the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it.

The apocalyptic language of changes in the sun, moon, and stars is common in OT, and is associated with God's judgment on nations. Thus, the changes in sun, moon, and stars following the destruction of Jerusalem as outlined in the olivet discourse should be interpreted no differently than in the OT.


Judgment against Egypt.

Ezekiel 32:1-2, 7-8 In the twelfth year, on the first day of the twelfth month, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, take up a lament for Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him
When I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars. I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you,
and I will bring darkness upon your land

Judgment against Babylon
Isaiah 13:1, 10 This is the burden against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz received: For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.

Judgment against Israel
Amos 8:2,9 So the LORD said to me, “The end has come for My people Israel; I will no longer spare them.” And in that day, declares the Lord GOD, I will make the sun go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the daytime.
 
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claninja

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keras

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There is no confirmation of this belief in the NT.
But there is:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1 make it clear there will be a temple in Jerusalem before Jesus Returns.
Why do you object to this truth?
 
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claninja

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Yes... I agree with that. The Ezekiel 40-48 vision given Ezekiel is on the same order as John was given in Revelation 21 & 22.

It's always nice to find common ground :)

I can agree that God's Word does sometimes use symbols to describe a prophecy, but not always.

I would actually agree here with you. For example "see your king comes to you riding on a donkey". Zechariah 9:9 was literally fulfilled by Jesus riding on a literal donkey (matthew 21:5).

Or how about, "they will look upon whom they pierced". Zechariah 12:10 was literally fulfilled when Jesus's side was literally pierced with a spear (John 19:27).


In the parable of the wedding feast, the angry king sending an army to destroy the original wedding guests was literally fulfilled with God using the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

From this we see there are plenty of examples where scripture is fulfilled in a literal manner, and also when scripture is symbolically pointing to a future literal fulfillment. The OT did and Jesus did it through parables.

So how do we know when should be understood as a literal or symbolic? Not from our own interpretation, but from the New Testament.

The Ezekiel 40-48 vision is not given as symbology. It is a LITERAL prophecy. They are literal events that are to occur as written, which is why there's so much physical detail attached, even the actual physical location of God's River on earth once it is returned.

Moses was also given a extreme amount of detail under the old covenant for temple ordinances and worship. And yet the NT declares these very specific details as only shadows point to Christ and the New covenant.

The New testament shows us that the while temple arrangements, the animal sacrifices, and temple rituals were literal things, they were ONLY SHADOWS of the new covenant, and not the realities themselves. They were "symbolic" as the author of Hebrews clearly states.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities

Hebrews 9:6-10 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 9+but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

The New testament shows that under the New covenant, WE are the temple of God, not an earthly temple building. All of the literal things of temple ordinances were only shadows that pointed to the reformation under the new covenant through Christ.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,and they shall be my people
.

Ephesians 2:20-22 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

Our Lord Jesus gave that during His Ministry. He has since given us more info about the very end of this world, and the world to come in His Revelation. There will be a "thousand years" period after His return on the 7th Trumpet

I disagree that revelation is "new" information. I believe all of revelation can be found in the OT, gospels, and epistles.

Considering the numerous different futurist interpretations of revelation on this website alone, I would argue it is not wise to interpret revelation outside of the other books of the Bible.


And that is when He will reign here on earth, over all nations, with His elect.

Jesus already reigns over the earth now, as clearly stated in the scriptures:

Jesus is already the ruler of the kings of the earth:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

According to Paul, Jesus is already reigning. Reigning in this verse is "present tense"
1 corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Jesus is already above all rule and power, and authority and dominion in BOTH AGES
Ephesians 1:20-21 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

That is the subject of Zechariah 14 also

I agree. But reading Zechariah 14 in a literal manner contradicts the NT.

Zechariah 14 requires nations to come to Jerusalem to partake in the feast of booths. The New testament states coming to Jerusalem is not a requirement (john 4:21), nor is parting in the feasts of the old covenant (colossians 2:16-17). Thus if the 2nd half of zechariah 14 is referring to the earthly Jerusalem, it is a contradiction of NT teaching.

Therefore the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14, must be pointing to the heavenly Jerusalem of the new covenant.

1.) the living waters of Zechariah 14 refer to the coming of the Spirit

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

2.) Paul allegorically calls the heavenly Jerusalem the new covenant.
Galatians 4:24-26 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

3.) The author of Hebrews states we "have come" (past tense) to the heavenly Jerusalem
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering

Thus Zechariah 14 points to the work of Christ and the new covenant.

Thus the wicked and Satan are not destroyed until after that future "thousand years" of Revelation 20.

The 1,000 years was fulfilled at Christ's first coming.

You are relying on that Matthew 13:49-50 Scripture to serve a doctrine of men, rejecting further info He gave about that in His Revelation.

Doctrines of men separate revelation from the rest of Scripture. Revelation is not "new" information. Revelation should only be interpreted in light of the rest of scripture.

We'll have to wait and see about that, because the OT prophets other than Ezekiel also show Jesus returning to earth to reign over the nations. Even the angels in Acts 1 told His disciples who witnessed His ascension to Heaven that He will return in like manner as He went into Heaven. And they were upon the Mount of Olives for that, where He ascended from, and where He is prophesied to return.

How did Jesus go "into" heaven?

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

Surely you don't believe that is just symbology, and instead think that our Lord Jesus isn't really going to return to this earth???

I interpret Jesus coming from heaven to destroy Jerusalem, in the same way God came down from heaven to destroy enemies and nations

God coming down from heaven to defeat David's enemies

2 samuel 22:10 He parted the heavens and came down with dark clouds beneath His feet.

God coming down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 This is the burden against Egypt: Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud; He is coming to Egypt.

God coming down from heaven to judge Samaria
Micah 1:3 For behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread
on the high places of the earth.

Do you believe the vineyard came to destroy the wicked tenants, or is this still future?
Matthew 21:40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard returns, what will he do to those tenants?”

Well, I am not a Futurist.

So then you believe all of the olivet discourse and most if not all of revelation is fulfilled?

That is only because God 'blinded' those (Rom.11), not that our Lord's parables are impossible to grasp, for He said the eyes and ears of His disciples did hear and were blessed. In our time, we are given The Holy Spirit Comforter Who is promised to teach us all things. So we are supposed to also understand, as His disciples were given to.

We are to understand the spiritual reality that the OT pointed to.

2 corinthians 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thus, the disciples had to have their minds opened by the Spirit.

Where do the apostles teach of a future earthly temple building in which believers worship in? They don't.


The subject was about Ezekiel's temple, not the idea of being born again per John 3.

I know, but the interpretation principle is the same. You don't believe being born again means to literally come out of your mothers womb a 2nd time, but points to a spiritual truth under Christ. Thus, why do you interpret the Ezekiel temple, in the polar opposite way: as a literal physical building, especially when the NT teaches that WE, and not a building, are the temple of God?

No, not necessarily. But I do agree it is pointing to a still existing Jerusalem on earth after...

The ezekiel temple = the New Jerusalem = the body of Christ under the New covenant. We can use scripture to interpret scripture to prove this.

1.) the Ezekiel temple = the New Jerusalem, as BOTH have the river flowing from them (Ezekiel 47:1, revelation 22:1). BOTH Contain the throne of God (Ezekiel 43:6-7, Revelation 22:3). BOTH have fruit growing each month and leaves for healing the nations (Revelation 22:2, Ezekiel 47:12). BOTH have gates with the 12 tribes written on them (Ezekiel 48:30-35, revelation 21:12-13).


2.) The new Jerusalem = the body of Christ under the New covenant, as BOTH are built on the foundation of the apostles (revelation 21:14, ephesians 2:20-22). BOTH are where God dwells with His people (revelation 21:3, Ephesians 2:20-22). BOTH are the bride of the lamb (revelation 21:2, ephesians 5:31-32).
 
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claninja

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But there is:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1 make it clear there will be a temple in Jerusalem before Jesus Returns.

Neither passage mentions a 'rebuilding' of a future temple. When 2 thessalonians 2:4 was written, there was already a temple building standing in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:1 clearly refers to the olivet discourse, which is about the 1st century standing temple that was to be destroyed.

Do you believe in 2 different times of the gentiles, where Jerusalem is trampled down?

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.
 
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jgr

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But there is:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1 make it clear there will be a temple in Jerusalem before Jesus Returns.
Why do you object to this truth?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is the "naos" spiritual temple of the believer, the only form of the temple appearing in Paul's epistles.

John also uses "naos" in Revelation 11:1.

Why do you object to these truths?
 
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Davy

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It's always nice to find common ground :)

We should both agree, if we're reading the same Bible. At times I don't think we are though.

I would actually agree here with you. For example "see your king comes to you riding on a donkey". Zechariah 9:9 was literally fulfilled by Jesus riding on a literal donkey (matthew 21:5).

Or how about, "they will look upon whom they pierced". Zechariah 12:10 was literally fulfilled when Jesus's side was literally pierced with a spear (John 19:27).

CORRECTIONS:
I have to correct you on the Zech.12:10 point; there is more to that you left out which shows that is still a future prophecy:

Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

KJV

That part in red underlined is about the unbelieving Jews admitting what they had done in crucifying our Lord Jesus. That has not happened yet today; the majority of today's Jews still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah).

In the parable of the wedding feast, the angry king sending an army to destroy the original wedding guests was literally fulfilled with God using the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem in 66-70ad.


That also is a misinterpretation of that prophecy...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV


In Romans 11, Apostle Paul showed how God put blindness (a literal 'stupor') upon the unbelieving part of Israel, i.e., the Jews. Paul then showed how that blindness won't be removed (upon the majority of them) until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And then all Israel will be saved. This is why the Zech.12:10 verses shows them mourning for Christ at His future return. Those are also the ones who will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon them because of their shame on that day of His return (see Luke 23 about the parable Jesus gave to the daughters of Jerusalem.)

From this we see there are plenty of examples where scripture is fulfilled in a literal manner, and also when scripture is symbolically pointing to a future literal fulfillment. The OT did and Jesus did it through parables.

Though I understand there are many Bible Scriptures that show Christ's 1st coming and Ministry was fulfilled, you have pretty well failed to show that with the above examples I had to show correction on.
 
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Davy

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....
So how do we know when should be understood as a literal or symbolic? Not from our own interpretation, but from the New Testament.


The Gospel should be understood by Christ's witnesses. Who were those? His Apostles who wrote The New Testament Books, and especially those who were with Him that actually saw Christ's death and resurrection. However, Christ's crucifixion was prophesied originally in the Old Testament Books, especially through David in Psalms 22, even about Christ's clothing the Roman soldiers cast lots upon. So there were Old Testament era witnesses too, they just didn't get to live at the time when Jesus came to fulfill The Gospel. So really, BOTH... Old and New Testament Books should be studied together and understood, for both declare The Gospel.

....
The New testament shows that under the New covenant, WE are the temple of God, not an earthly temple building. All of the literal things of temple ordinances were only shadows that pointed to the reformation under the new covenant through Christ.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,and they shall be my people
.

Ephesians 2:20-22 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

And that Scripture above is very true, that 'symbolically' today, Christ's Church is represented as a spiritual temple, and there is no more requirement (for us) to need a physical temple. But for the orthodox unbelieving Jews, that obviously is another matter, and apparently one you have not yet understood, because there will be a Millennial physical temple on earth in Jerusalem after Jesus returns. The Ezekiel 40 thru 48 prophecy is literal, not speculative. Same with the parallel Revelation 20 thru 22 prophecy, it is literal, not speculative, and both were given to God's servants by vision.

I disagree that revelation is "new" information. I believe all of revelation can be found in the OT, gospels, and epistles.


And I disagree with your view on that.

To believe that all is already fulfilled today is to wrongly accept this present world as Christ's Kingdom, when much of what the Old Testament prophets and New Testament writers were given to prophecy involves the literal destruction of this present world by fire (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4; Isaiah 29; Nahum 1).

Considering the numerous different futurist interpretations of revelation on this website alone, I would argue it is not wise to interpret revelation outside of the other books of the Bible.

I'm glad your argument isn't with me then, because I am not a Futurist, nor an Historicist, nor a Preterist. I believe in a post-tribulation return of my Lord Jesus Christ. I guess that means you'll have to talk actual Bible Scripture when speaking with me.

Jesus already reigns over the earth now, as clearly stated in the scriptures:

Jesus is already the ruler of the kings of the earth:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

But not all His enemies are made His footstool just yet today. Paul didn't claim that was fulfilled yet. The doctrine of men you have accepted has tricked your mind. Satan is still roaming today seeking to devour. Christ's enemies here on earth are NOT... yet made His footstool, and that is quite obvious today. One would have to have their head metaphorically buried in the sand to not see that.

Another problem with that thinking goes directly against the OT prophecies that are to occur on the "day of the Lord", which Apostles Paul and Peter also proclaimed. Your belief would strike out that "day of the Lord" event when all wickedness is subdued with Christ's return. It would even strike out Bible prophecy of Christ's future LITERAL return.

No need for me to continue a response, because what you've written from men's doctrine you are on has gone far, far off the page of God's Holy Writ. I can only assume you are only 'advertising' those doctrines of men.
 
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Davy

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2 Thessalonians 2:4 is the "naos" spiritual temple of the believer, the only form of the temple appearing in Paul's epistles.

John also uses "naos" in Revelation 11:1.

Why do you object to these truths?

O good grief!

The Greek word 'naos' (Strong's no. 3485) is also translated as "temple" about the literal physical temple in Jerusalem in Christ's day and before, in many Scriptures, too many for me to take time to list here.

Matt 27:5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple (naos), and departed, and went and hanged himself.

KJV
 
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summerville

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There will be no Temple in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:22

Ezekiels Temple will be built before Jesus Returns, as the leader of the nation in all of the holy land, will make sacrifices to God in it. Ezekiel 46:12

Why it is that people here make such fundamental errors in their Biblical beliefs, direct contradictions of plainly stated Bible truths, I wonder what their agender is?

Since Ezekiel was in Babylon for the exile I thought he was speaking of the second temple rebuilding under Cyrus and its expansion under Herod the Great.
 
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claninja

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We should both agree, if we're reading the same Bible. At times I don't think we are though.

Eschatological bias drives one's interpretation of scripture. I'll stick with the apostles teaching of OT scripture over modern day personal interpretations of revelation .

CORRECTIONS:
I have to correct you on the Zech.12:10 point; there is more to that you left out which shows that is still a future prophecy:

Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

KJV

That part in red underlined is about the unbelieving Jews admitting what they had done in crucifying our Lord Jesus. That has not happened yet today; the majority of today's Jews still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah).

You didn't "correct" me on anything, so I'm not sure what you are "correcting" me on. My argument was that Zechariah 12:10, only the part of "they shall look on him whom they have pierced, found literal and not symbolic fulfillment, during Jesus' crucifixion, as stated in John 19:37.

I wasn't expounding on the 2nd coming as you seem to be adding. I was simply making the argument that OT scripture can be read straight forward and with literal fulfillment, such as Jesus literally riding on a donkey, or Jesus literally being looked upon by those who pierced him.

I thought you would agree that OT scripture can be read and interpreted as being fulfilled in a literal way and is not always symbolic? My point was that I agree with you on that.

That also is a misinterpretation of that prophecy...

I was only talking about verse 7. This verse was literally fulfilled when the Romans destroyed the city of Jerusalem. This is the agreed upon interpretation of the verse for just about every commentary (Matthew 22:7 Commentaries: "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.)

Matthew 22:7 The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

My point being, that this isn't symbolic like fish and a net, God literally sent the romans to destroy Israel for rejecting His servants and Son.

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Though I understand there are many Bible Scriptures that show Christ's 1st coming and Ministry was fulfilled, you have pretty well failed to show that with the above examples I had to show correction on.

I'm not sure what you are correcting me on. My examples were simply to show that OT scripture and parables can be read and fulfilled in a literal and not symbolic manner. I wasn't going any deeper with that argument. I was attempting to show that I agree with you on that point. So I am confused by your response.


 
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claninja

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The Gospel should be understood by Christ's witnesses. Who were those? His Apostles who wrote The New Testament Books, and especially those who were with Him that actually saw Christ's death and resurrection. However, Christ's crucifixion was prophesied originally in the Old Testament Books, especially through David in Psalms 22, even about Christ's clothing the Roman soldiers cast lots upon. So there were Old Testament era witnesses too, they just didn't get to live at the time when Jesus came to fulfill The Gospel. So really, BOTH... Old and New Testament Books should be studied together and understood, for both declare The Gospel.

Sure, then please provide even 1 scripture from the NT that shows believers will again worship God in a future literal earthly temple building to show that you are following the teachings of the apostles and not the doctrines of men. If the Ezekiel temple is a literal future earthly building where believers will worship again with animal sacrifices, the NT should surely teach this and you should be able to easily provide NT scripture to support this interpretation.

And that Scripture above is very true, that 'symbolically' today, Christ's Church is represented as a spiritual temple, and there is no more requirement (for us) to need a physical temple. But for the orthodox unbelieving Jews, that obviously is another matter, and apparently one you have not yet understood, because there will be a Millennial physical temple on earth in Jerusalem after Jesus returns. The Ezekiel 40 thru 48 prophecy is literal, not speculative. Same with the parallel Revelation 20 thru 22 prophecy, it is literal, not speculative, and both were given to God's servants by vision.

So you believe the old covenant is still in affect then? You believe God has 2 people and didn't make 1 new people (both jew and gentile) by the new covenant?

And I disagree with your view on that.

To believe that all is already fulfilled today is to wrongly accept this present world as Christ's Kingdom, when much of what the Old Testament prophets and New Testament writers were given to prophecy involves the literal destruction of this present world by fire (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4; Isaiah 29; Nahum 1).

I didn't state I believe it all fulfilled, I stated revelation is not "new" information. All of the information of Revelation can be found in the OT, gospels, and epistles.

I'm glad your argument isn't with me then, because I am not a Futurist, nor an Historicist, nor a Preterist. I believe in a post-tribulation return of my Lord Jesus Christ. I guess that means you'll have to talk actual Bible Scripture when speaking with me.

So you believe revelation is fulfilled then, as you are not a futurist?

But not all His enemies are made His footstool just yet today. Paul didn't claim that was fulfilled yet. The doctrine of men you have accepted has tricked your mind. Satan is still roaming today seeking to devour. Christ's enemies here on earth are NOT... yet made His footstool, and that is quite obvious today. One would have to have their head metaphorically buried in the sand to not see that.

Paul doesn't say all his enemies are made a footstool already. He states Jesus IS REIGNING (present tense greek verb) Until his enemies are made a footstool.

So Jesus is not currently your king? you don't believe Jesus has all authority over heaven and earth and is yet ruler of the kings of the earth?

Another problem with that thinking goes directly against the OT prophecies that are to occur on the "day of the Lord", which Apostles Paul and Peter also proclaimed. Your belief would strike out that "day of the Lord" event when all wickedness is subdued with Christ's return. It would even strike out Bible prophecy of Christ's future LITERAL return.

Where did I state it was not literal for you to make this statement?


No need for me to continue a response, because what you've written from men's doctrine you are on has gone far, far off the page of God's Holy Writ. I can only assume you are only 'advertising' those doctrines of men.

I could say the same generic statement about your beliefs, but let's stick to objective arguments.
 
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keras

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Since Ezekiel was in Babylon for the exile I thought he was speaking of the second temple rebuilding under Cyrus and its expansion under Herod the Great.
What Ezekiel describes and what the second Temple was, are quite different. Also the rest of Ezekiel 40 to 48 has had no fulfilment yet. The Shekinah glory of God never went into the second Temple, but will in the third and final Temple. Ezekiel 43:1-4

Haggai 2:6-9 says that after the Lord shakes the world, on His yet to happen; Day of wrath, a new Temple will be built which will surpass the splendor of the former Temples.
 
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summerville

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What Ezekiel describes and what the second Temple was, are quite different. Also the rest of Ezekiel 40 to 48 has had no fulfilment yet. The Shekinah glory of God never went into the second Temple, but will in the third and final Temple. Ezekiel 43:1-4

Haggai 2:6-9 says that after the Lord shakes the world, on His yet to happen; Day of wrath, a new Temple will be built which will surpass the splendor of the former Temples.

Jesus never went to the second temple?? Or, Jesus is NOW the temple? I doubt Jewish people will return to animal sacrifice.

The building of the third Temple under Emperor Julian was destroyed by fire and earthquake.
 
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