Government /=/ organized society. Government is a territorial monopoly, which forces its will on others whether they like it or not. The services that governments typically provide need not be done via monopoly, nor restricted to a certain geographical area.
Perhaps I didn't communicate well enough. People have every right to not associate with whomever they want. They can live as a hermit if they like. Though that's not what I'm advocating (personally), nor is it something I recommend. Rather, I believe in voluntary association with others. Thus, no one in society should have to be assocaited with anyone else if they don't want to. So if I don't want to pay the U.S. government for its "services" I should be allowed to find another party and/or parites to pay for those services. That's secession. To use an analogy, I "secede" from a store that has crappy service and I don't want their product anymore.I didn't claim that government was equivalent to organised society, but it certainly is part of it. You dodged the question: how does one go about not receiving the benefits of living in an organised society?
Perhaps I didn't communicate well enough. People have every right to not associate with whomever they want. They can live as a hermit if they like. Though that's not what I'm advocating (personally), nor is it something I recommend. Rather, I believe in voluntary association with others. Thus, no one in society should have to be assocaited with anyone else if they don't want to. So if I don't want to pay the U.S. government for its "services" I should be allowed to find another party and/or parites to pay for those services. That's secession. To use an analogy, I "secede" from a store that has crappy service and I don't want their product anymore.
It's not as if I'd be the only one seceding (assuiming that the government wouldn't kill me first). Plenty of others who don't want to be part of the U.S. government would secede too. And, if people came to the moral belief of voluntaryism, they would know that the U.S. government is a criminal organization that forces people to pay it. Thus, the roads and such do not belong them.That doesn't really address the question though. Recall that you secede from the state, not the government, and in doing so become your own state with its own government. How do you go about no longer receiving the benefits of the state that your household just seceded from? Do you stop using their roads? They aren't your roads anymore. If so, how do you conduct trade? Presumably trade would be important in a small landlocked state like yours (I'm assuming you don't have your own port). What about defence? You are no longer entitled to police protection, but if you live in a safe neighbourhood your state is still likely to benefit from the safety provided by the police. How do you go about ensuring that you no longer receive that benefit?
It's not as if I'd be the only one seceding (assuiming that the government wouldn't kill me first). Plenty of others who don't want to be part of the U.S. government would secede too.
And, if people came to the moral belief of voluntaryism, they would know that the U.S. government is a criminal organization that forces people to pay it. Thus, the roads and such do not belong them.
Recall that I said I don't see secession happening any time soon. That's because people still think that you have the right to kill and steal as long as you con enough people into voting for you.
I have no desire to create another state (here I am defining 'state' as a territorial monopoly of violence). The governments in the U.S. have no right to things like roads, since they paid for those with stolen money. Now if they would change, using only voluntary payments (thus downsizing themselves), they could hold legitimate property.They wouldn't be seceding from the government, they'd be seceding from the state, thereby forming their own state to govern how they desire.
Once you have seceded, you no longer have a right to the roads because they are not part of your newly created state. You have to build and maintain your own roads.
Not everyone thought that having women and blacks as property was immoral. Not everyone thought that killing heretics and people of different religions was immoral. To this day there are people who deny that Selective Service is slavery, that collateral damage is murder, that eminent domain is theft, etc. Thankfully, most recognize my first two examples for what they are. I'm confident that one day, probably long after I'm gone, people will see the state for what it is too.From context, I presume by "steal" you mean taxes. Not everyone thinks that taxes are the moral equivalent of theft.
Secession will never be more than a fantasy for a handful of true believers. It's a fringe position that appeals only to small minority. Rightly or wrongly, modern life for the vast majority of Americans is dependent on a functioning federal government. People who have worked their entire lives paying into SS, and Medicare, will not voluntarily relinquish these for some neo-antifederalist pipe dream. And there is no way in hell that seceding states could take over these obligations on their own.
Let's get real. We're stuck with each other, and we have to make the best of it.
And there is no way in (hockey sticks) that seceding states could take over these obligations on their own.
Nobody thought the Soviet Union would fall apart - until it happened. None of things you predict happened then.
Actually that's not true. There has been a large number of people in the Intelligence community that realized the Soviet model was unsustainable and was likely to come crashing down at some point. That was in the 70s.
Heck, I could have told you it'd fall at some point. Socialism In One Country isn't a model that most on the left even think can work.
You being born in 1992 and the Soviet Union having collapsed in 1991, I somehow doubt you could have told us it would fall at some pointHeck, I could have told you it'd fall at some point. Socialism In One Country isn't a model that most on the left even think can work.
Actually that's not true. There has been a large number of people in the Intelligence community that realized the Soviet model was unsustainable and was likely to come crashing down at some point. That was in the 70s.
SoldierOfTheKing said:Actually that's not true. There has been a large number of people in the Intelligence community that realized the Soviet model was unsustainable and was likely to come crashing down at some point. That was in the 70s.
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