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Should people have children if they can't afford it?

C8-@

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...and even more sadly, you have to greedily consume the hater-aid that's being passed around. You have to jump to the dark side of the Force in order to paint 1.6 Billion (yes with a B) people with that big of a paint sprayer. Perhaps you should be looking at the United States government, creator, sponsor and trainers of the very agents who claim responsibility for these atrocities. Perhaps you should ask who's funding this government. Perhaps you should avoid judging before you have all the facts...or at least more than the soundbites put out by said government.

Certain factions is hardly 1.6 billion! That would be ALL factions which I did not stipulate. So no paint sprayer here merely a child's paint brush.

I have no hatred of Muslims or any man and hold them no more to account for their actions than the Christian crusaders for their atrocities in the name of Christ.

I am well aware that the same evil forces/governments/CIA/knights templars/illuminati whatever we call Satan's minions these days are behind this bringing jihad to our doors. I'm just sad that my kids will have to deal with this!

I understand that the Bush administration used a false flag to create mass instability in the middle East and unstick the glue that held the region together by getting rid of Sadam Hussain. That this has continued ever since with the Arab Spring uprising and now they're after Bashar -al Assad and when he goes ( which he will) all hell will break loose! Thank God for Putin at present!

My Bible tells me that when you cast out one demon/dictator/tyrant etc. and sweep house as did the US et al, then 7 more move in e.g. ISIS or should we say ISIL as the L stands for Lavant which is an ancient region incorporating Israel, which is really what this is all about!

If you're suggesting that I stop paying taxes to the US (or in my case UK) government due to this then Jesus said render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's in the vain hope that they will take care of the poor and needy to return to the original subject!
 
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C8-@

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At 7.3 billion people and counting, and the world fast running out of natural resources, don't you think "fill the earth" can perhaps be ticked off as accomplished?

Simply put No! We aren't running out of resources that's a propaganda lie, there's plenty for all if evenly distributed.

And yes, while we're at it let's build up as they are doing in the UAE! Let's rebuild Babylon with giant glass and steel structures for the wealthy few to inhabit whilst the poor minority of this world live at ground level in filth and squalor because we're spending the money for their water supply on mile high accommodation!
 
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C8-@

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Maybe we should fill every square foot and also upwards since we can make very tall buildings that reach the clouds....

It looks to me like a severe case of human infestation....

"Human infestation?????" "Fill every square foot also upwards???"

Too much of The Matrix in this idea methinks Mr. Anderson! Human fuel cells (batteries) for the elite! Again more anti human/procreation propaganda!
 
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SkyWriting

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I believe that EVERYONE should be able to have free health with everyone contributing through their employer like as in England when I was there. Because of this arrangement, I was able to go through an early divorce, raise my kids myself, had 10 operations and 3 deadly illnesses and never drew Social Security in my life! -including here in Australia I am now on an aged pension and feel that is my right having worked for 53 years

That sounds like a "Social Security" concept to me.
 
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SkyWriting

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Kayeliz

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I haven't posted here in ages, but this thread is interesting because my parents have been in that situation. Due to an undiscovered disease and its symptoms, my father was unemployed for a few years when I was little and during that time, my parents had my youngest siblings. There was a bit of criticism even in our church. And yes, my parents received benefits from the government.
However, they did their best to put that money to good use. They taught us to be happy about small things, they educated us extremely well (we all could read before we entered school and we all went to Grammar school and did our A-levels) and they taught us to always work hard. My dad wasn't lazy during the unemployment and neither was my mother. She gave private lessons to pupils for many years to add a bit of money and my dad tried to establish his own business. We learned to work hard, worked while studying at university or doing our training for a job and so far, not one of my siblings has been on umemployment money. My family needed some financial support for a while, but due to the way they raised us, I think we have given all of that back to the country by now, by paying taxes, doing voluntary work (my father did that for a while and helped teenagers whho were in trouble) and helping to educate others. Three of us are working now, one sister and I have a university degree, another sister has a degree as a speech therapist and is working. My youngest sister is studying and working to earn her own money, as well as doing voluntary work for the Red Cross.

The problem in this country is not just families on state benefits, it's families on state benefits who are not motivated to learn and to change their situation, it is parents who have one child after another and let them grow up in front of the TV, parents whose kids can't even go to a cheap sports club because the parents rather use the money for cigarettes and and the mothers for getting their nails done or another tattoo. The kids never learn about the value of education and hard work because they lack the role models and often enough, they are the ones having unprotected sex early and bringing more children into the world who will grow up the same way.
My parents did deprive themselves to a certin extent to bring us up well and my parents invested a lot of time and energy into bringing us up, taking us to the library regularly, hardly letting us watch TV, making us learn an instrument, saving money to let us take part in choir activities and exchange programmes in school and letting us do small jobs when we were teenagers that helped us to earn some of our own money. They also taught us not to buy things on credit and not to get into debt.

Many of my friends with children have said that if you wait until you can afford them, you will never have them. There is a biological limit for women and if they all waited until they were certain they could afford having children, the wouldn't have any at all. Already, in this country, people don't have many children. I don't mind if a family is on state benefits for a while, as long as they work hard to bring up their kids well and to get them educated, and try to change their situation. My dad found work when I was 7 and when the company was broke and he couldn't find a job again due to his illness, my mother had started working and she is now earing the money. Some of the kids I tutor are on scholarship programmes, one of them is from a large family where money is often tight. Others have families who earn very little, often immigrants with good qualifications from their home countries that don't count here, but they scrape together the money to pay for extra tutoring for their children and these children often do very well in school, go to university and get good jobs and give so much back to the country. If all these families didn't have children, this country would be in an even worse state.

Bottom line: I think being on state benefits for a while and having children in itself is not the bad thing. The bad thing is not making an effort, not working hard to give the children a good home, not being role models for the children, but raising them to not care about learning things, not caring about school and an education and turning them into adults who have dropped out of school as well and have no motivation to change anything about their situation.
 
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SkyWriting

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I believe the pill has caused a lot of the worlds' problems I was there when it was first introduced and things were noticed straight away. First were the deaths from blood clots and later came the autism and aspergers Then came the problem women were having with getting fertilised - going to clinics to have a baby. Immunisations have been blamed for a lot but it was after the pill - and what else is to be expected!? People thinking they can do God's work for them - preventing their bodies from acting naturally - they was asking for it!
I took a group of 15 girls on a sales job once. We stayed at a hotel they was all skinny-dipping in the pool at night which amazed me. I asked, 'Hey, don't any of you have your periods?' Answer was they never had them! they got rid of them with the pill. I knew there and then that these girls were in for trouble in later life.

Likely that's true, but I wasn't referring to long term health problems of use.
 
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SkyWriting

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The bad thing is not making an effort, not working hard to give the children a good home, not being role models for the children, but raising them to not care about learning things, not caring about school and an education and turning them into adults who have dropped out of school as well and have no motivation to change anything about their situation.

That really covers it well. Promoting entertainment and spectator sports as a career choice does not help kids either.
 
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timewerx

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"Human infestation?????" "Fill every square foot also upwards???"

Too much of The Matrix in this idea methinks Mr. Anderson! Human fuel cells (batteries) for the elite! Again more anti human/procreation propaganda!



If we literally follow the commandment in Genesys, seems more like it. "Fill the tub" - like fill every cubic inch of it. In the case of Earth, fill every habitable space in it, barely leaving any empty space.

It is crazy. Perhaps, what that commandment meant was only to fill the Earth (and additionally, to spread apart as commanded in the Tower of Babel, not congregate in cities) up to a point when space and consumption of resource is starting to become an issue. Today, we are long past that issue. If we are reasonably set apart and not overpopulated, there shouldn't be any poverty.... Everyone will have plenty of food to eat and lots of wide open spaces to play with pets and kites, I don't know...
 
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Pasyyl

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I have a friend that when we meet up, we always end up talking about a fairly controversial issue and often can never agree on them.

This came up yesterday as we were watching a programme on a family on welfare benefits with 11 children who were saying that the government were not helping them enough to look after the children and buy what they need.

What are your views? Should the government/ general public be in the position to pay for this?

Yeshah the Christ said, "I tell you the truth, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."

What is the love of money? If we had faith to move a mountain, as we SHOULD have according to Christ, then I could command a thousand fruit trees to come up out of the ground to feed a thousand of my beloved little ones.

However, since no one has that kind of faith, we have to fall back to an auxiliary control system. Aka: money. Which holds the deed to everything a family needs to care for their children.

So to answer your question in the truest form... No. We should have the faith Christ rebuked us for not having, and to hell with governments and man/women who doubt.
 
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TheTusculumGrower

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I have a friend that when we meet up, we always end up talking about a fairly controversial issue and often can never agree on them.

This came up yesterday as we were watching a programme on a family on welfare benefits with 11 children who were saying that the government were not helping them enough to look after the children and buy what they need.

What are your views? Should the government/ general public be in the position to pay for this?
If I have a 3 yr old car which is running good gets me from A to B then to C and back to A . Ye I want a new higher priced better looking sports car which would be around 75,000 to a 100,000 should I buy it if I know I cannot afford it ?? No , the same with children . You have a mind use it .
 
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TheTusculumGrower

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This is what the Qur'an has to say
"And do not kill your children for fear of poverty: We give them sustenance and yourselves (too): surely to kill them is a great wrong." (17:31)

"...And do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty -- We provide for you and for them --- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice: this He has enjoined you with that you may understand." (6:151)

Now the meaning that can be gleaned from this verse is that, money is never an issue. To put your trust in Allah.

Essentially, having children is a gateway in of itself to more wealth, as is getting married in the first place according to this verse:


Chapter (24) sūrat l-nūr (The Light)


Sahih International: And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.


The conclusion we reach is that, we should not refuse ourselves and our children marriage, to complete our faith - and that we should not avoid having children, because regardless of what we do (in attempt to prevent) Allah will give us a child If He wills. So it is better not to avoid.

Money is essentially, unimportant in the grand scheme of things - because Allah Has made for all of us a set bounty that He gives, If we strive to satisfy our obligations to Him and our families. We will never find ourselves short.

And for those who do find themselves struggling, read this verse


Surah Al-Ankabut Verse 2

Sahih International
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?

and I end with this prayer inside this verse.


Sahih International
Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."


I believe you can find the equivalent of these verses in the Bible, I am merely giving the response in my holy book for a question directed at Christianity, I understand that these are two different religions - but I believe the similarities are enough that we can share the wisdom among ourselves. Feel free to delete this post If you find it out of place. However I hope you are able to take the verses to heart. As they are truly words of wisdom.
My God tells me to pay my own way . Take care of my family With the gifts He gave me at birth
 
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TheTusculumGrower

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Who is telling you that? Did you hear it from a sociologist or a political scientist? Like I said earlier, the average family on welfare includes 1.8 children, which seems pretty normal to me. It certainly isn't "many children."
CHECK AGAIN
 
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nomadictheist

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I find it interesting that we raise questions like this and never bother to ask questions like...

Should people have a cable subscription that they can't afford?
Should people have a video game console they can't afford?
Should people have a smart phone data plan they can't afford?
Should people have vehicle payments they can't afford?
Should people buy a house with payments they can't afford?
Should people go out to eat frequently if they can't afford it?

I find that most people who have children they "can't afford" are living a lifestyle that could be changed to remedy that. The number one finance killer for those that I know is a cable subscription or video games. The up front cost of these things isn't what kills finances - it's the amount of time spent in pursuit of them. Lots of time spent on meaningless pursuits that could be spent toward making oneself better, earning more money, and becoming more fit to provide for the children.

Our church has a ministry that helps provide things like food, beds, and similar necessities for families that can't afford to buy them. I can't tell you how often you'll go into a house where the children have no beds only to see the father and mother - usually in their 20s, sitting in front of an enormous TV watching some television show or other.

The problem in America, as I see it, isn't whether people who "can't afford it" should have children. It's whether people take responsibility for their decision to have children... And to have sex in the first place...

And then, of course, there's the question of whether we should stand in judgment of third world countries, since the vast majority of people there can't afford to properly care for the children they have because of the conditions of the country in which they live. Should they have children? Or should they just die out so that us better-adjusted westerners can move in and show them how a country should be run?
 
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dogs4thewin

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Semi-blind post:

I believe in a government that supports its people. So I believe that the government should help support families when they decide to have children, no matter what their income level.

Prenatal care, parenting classes, healthcare (for everyone, parent and child), good nutrition/access to cheap and healthy food, free/cheap daycare, and parental leave should be provided to everyone. I think we should completely revamp our adoption system as well to make it easier and safer for kids to be placed in the loving homes with families who will provide them the love and care they very much deserve.

I also think the government should provide comprehensive sex ed, make contraceptives (of all types) cheap/free and easily available, and make the personal decision to sterilize easier for the purpose of making sure people have the knowledge and ability to fully control their decisions to reproduce or not.

I have made the decision to not reproduce. That's mine and mine alone. Other people love kids and really want their own. I don't think someone's financial state should dictate whether or not they should have children. That is classist and wrong.
So taxes should pay for people to have children they cannot afford?
 
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malvina

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I find it interesting that we raise questions like this and never bother to ask questions like...

Should people have a cable subscription that they can't afford?
Should people have a video game console they can't afford?
Should people have a smart phone data plan they can't afford?
Should people have vehicle payments they can't afford?
Should people buy a house with payments they can't afford?
Should people go out to eat frequently if they can't afford it?

I find that most people who have children they "can't afford" are living a lifestyle that could be changed to remedy that. The number one finance killer for those that I know is a cable subscription or video games. The up front cost of these things isn't what kills finances - it's the amount of time spent in pursuit of them. Lots of time spent on meaningless pursuits that could be spent toward making oneself better, earning more money, and becoming more fit to provide for the children.

Our church has a ministry that helps provide things like food, beds, and similar necessities for families that can't afford to buy them. I can't tell you how often you'll go into a house where the children have no beds only to see the father and mother - usually in their 20s, sitting in front of an enormous TV watching some television show or other.

The problem in America, as I see it, isn't whether people who "can't afford it" should have children. It's whether people take responsibility for their decision to have children... And to have sex in the first place...

And then, of course, there's the question of whether we should stand in judgment of third world countries, since the vast majority of people there can't afford to properly care for the children they have because of the conditions of the country in which they live. Should they have children? Or should they just die out so that us better-adjusted westerners can move in and show them how a country should be run?
People are just thoroughly spoilt. It started off with their parents spoiling them to make up for their bad parenting and they've carried it on into parenthood. My daughter's girl went to Uni and had an allowance. When I chatted with her I was astounded to see my daughter's total acceptance of her spending all of her allowance one day in their café! and now that she is married my daughter still spoils them with money and her husband has a good job her daughter an allowance for her continued Uni studies. They are just passing on these habits to their kids! I really feel that a lot of people today are such bad parents everything is done for them, well that is my view anyway
 
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dogs4thewin

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People are just thoroughly spoilt. It started off with their parents spoiling them to make up for their bad parenting and they've carried it on into parenthood. My daughter's girl went to Uni and had an allowance. When I chatted with her I was astounded to see my daughter's total acceptance of her spending all of her allowance one day in their café! and now that she is married my daughter still spoils them with money and her husband has a good job her daughter an allowance for her continued Uni studies. They are just passing on these habits to their kids! I really feel that a lot of people today are such bad parents everything is done for them, well that is my view anyway
While I agree to a point. At some point a person cannot simply blame his or her upbringing for bad choices.
 
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malvina

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While I agree to a point. At some point a person cannot simply blame his or her upbringing for bad choices.
I'm not saying that simply that bad habits are being passed on to their kids
 
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dogs4thewin

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I'm not saying that simply that bad habits are being passed on to their kids
Honest question What were you saying? Not trying to be rude.
 
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