Should obedience be mentioned when preaching the gospel?

[TheRedRaven]

I have a co worker who asks me a lot of questions about Christianity and faith. He grew up catholic but has mixed into a lot of eastern spirituality. We are supposed to meet outside of work for lunch and I am going to present the gospel to him.

Now, we are told that salvation is from Christ alone. I can not earn salvation with good works. It is only by trusting in His provisional death and Resurrection that will save men and forgive them of their sins. But the Bible has a strong call for believers to bear good fruit. Christ even said that He will judge his own by their fruit, to sort out the true christians and the fake.

I believe this is sort of like the order of operations law in mathematics. You don't produce good fruit and then God finds favor in you and then you are saved. It is that you get saved (calling out to Christ) then by being given the holy spirit, the evidence that you are being saved is that you bear fruit of the spirit.

I want to ask your help because I know there are 2 other coworkers that claim they are Christian. The one I will call T, swears a lot and has a very graphic sense of humor (almost always making homosexual jokes) When I even said to him that he is cussing a lot he said he didn't care. My other coworker J says that he is saved yet is not bothered that his girlfriend is atheist, brags about having sex with her, and says that all religions are the same and denies the Bible is truth.

Now, I know I used to have a problem with profanity. I said such terrible things in frustration at work (my job can be very hard) but I felt conviction about it and sought forgiveness with God. I prayed the Holy Spirit would muzzle my foul tongue and that only godly things would be spoken from my mouth. I admit I occasionally let something slip but I can clearly see a difference and still seek to make my words obedient to Christ.

I look to my other coworkers and I do not see that. I see no conviction or desire to change. I am not going around trying to determine who is saved and who is not, but I believe that the genuine believer will have remorse for their sin. I've been listening to a lot of preaching by paul washer, and agree with him that there are too many christians who live and act and talk just like the world and that we will know them by their fruit. I know he is not talking about perfectionism there.

What would your advice be? And my friend's name is Gerardo. Please pray that his heart would be opened to believe on Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Well, he is responsible for his actions. You can try to be a good testimony - and often this is by consistent living rather than necessarily by giving people a running commentary.

It's interesting that Romans both begins and ends with similar phrases: 'the obedience of faith' / 'obedience to the faith'.

Ephesians 2.8-10 is a good reference point also.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Obedience is more for the flesh, sometimes explaining faith as "trust" can communicate the message of obedience without sounding so demanding.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think counselling someone on their choice of words only matters if they consider themselves religious ... otherwise it doesn't matter.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If you dislike the vocal opinions of someone at work, make a point to express your opinion once, and then just emulate it.

 

[TheRedRaven]

And I just want to be clear I am not advocating that salvation is dependent on you doing x number of good things per day, or a checklist of deeds, but I am opposed to people praying the sinners prayer at one point in their life, then living just like the world without care or conviction and believing them to be saved because they recited a magic formula or got their jesus flu shot. I think legalism is wrong and that is not what I'm propagating, but I want to make it clear that yes you trust in Christ for salvation, but the genuine believer will become sensitive to the sin in their life, and will begin to change their lifestyle to better form to the holiness of Christ,or to walk as He walked.

 

[Haramis]

The order is what's important. First comes faith, then comes obedience. Not out of fear, but from trust. Trying to drive sin out of your life is a failing mission. Instead, you follow the light of God, and sin will naturally be washed away.

 

[Soyeong]

I have a co worker who asks me a lot of questions about Christianity and faith. He grew up catholic but has mixed into a lot of eastern spirituality. We are supposed to meet outside of work for lunch and I am going to present the gospel to him.

Now, we are told that salvation is from Christ alone. I can not earn salvation with good works. It is only by trusting in His provisional death and Resurrection that will save men and forgive them of their sins. But the Bible has a strong call for believers to bear good fruit. Christ even said that He will judge his own by their fruit, to sort out the true christians and the fake.

I believe this is sort of like the order of operations law in mathematics. You don't produce good fruit and then God finds favor in you and then you are saved. It is that you get saved (calling out to Christ) then by being given the holy spirit, the evidence that you are being saved is that you bear fruit of the spirit.

I want to ask your help because I know there are 2 other coworkers that claim they are Christian. The one I will call T, swears a lot and has a very graphic sense of humor (almost always making homosexual jokes) When I even said to him that he is cussing a lot he said he didn't care. My other coworker J says that he is saved yet is not bothered that his girlfriend is atheist, brags about having sex with her, and says that all religions are the same and denies the Bible is truth.

Now, I know I used to have a problem with profanity. I said such terrible things in frustration at work (my job can be very hard) but I felt conviction about it and sought forgiveness with God. I prayed the Holy Spirit would muzzle my foul tongue and that only godly things would be spoken from my mouth. I admit I occasionally let something slip but I can clearly see a difference and still seek to make my words obedient to Christ.

I look to my other coworkers and I do not see that. I see no conviction or desire to change. I am not going around trying to determine who is saved and who is not, but I believe that the genuine believer will have remorse for their sin. I've been listening to a lot of preaching by paul washer, and agree with him that there are too many christians who live and act and talk just like the world and that we will know them by their fruit. I know he is not talking about perfectionism there.

What would your advice be? And my friend's name is Gerardo. Please pray that his heart would be opened to believe on Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

The Gospel message that Jesus came preaching was to repent from our sins for the kingdom of God is at hand, so it is impossible to preach the Gospel message without mentioning obedience. Anything that does not include repentance from what God has revealed to be sin is not the Gospel message. To give another example:

Romans 15:18-19 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

Paul's Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience, so while you could perhaps talk about elements of the Gospel message without mentioned obedience, it would be an incomplete message.

Can our salvation be said to be complete if we still continue to sin? Yes and no. The Bible speaks about about our salvation in the past, present, and future tense (Ephesians 2:5, Philippians 2:12, Romans 5:9-10), so our salvation is all encompassing in that we have been saved from the penalty of our sins, we are being saved from continuing to sin, and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord. So there is an aspect of our salvation that is complete in that Jesus has paid the penalty for our sins, but there is also an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in that we are being trained to be more like Christ in doing what is holy, righteous, and good, and to stop sinning. According to Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been saved in the past tense by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing good works in the present by grace through faith. Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being saved from the penalty of our sins by Messiah giving himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but it also involves being trained by grace to do what God has revealed to be godly, upright, and good, and to renounce doing what God has revealed to be ungodly, sinful, and lawless. So obedience to God's commands has never been about what we are to do in order to become saved, but rather it is what we are to do because we have been, are being saved, and will be saved.

 

[Greg J.]

I think a lot of what needs to be said needs to be customized for the person. But some general things are:

You could relay God's words:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (bold mine, Matthew 28:19-20, 1984 NIV)

and give some of the reasons why he wants this. You could explain that to genuinely accept Jesus as Lord, one must believe he is real (and alive). And that if one genuinely accept God as their god, they will recognize their need to obey him.

This is a fairly powerful passage:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (bold mine, Matthew 7:21-23, 1984 NIV)

You can explain that all of God's commands are for people's long-term benefit, and he even guarantees to eventually reward you for it. It's not a question of obeying to be saved, it is simply that obedience is a natural response to genuinely accepting him as your god. (Being obedient in the above passage is not to be saved, but is a sign that someone is saved.) For someone that knows they need to entrust themselves, but are having trouble believing, then the answer is to make the commitment and be obedient. In response to committed obedience, God will grant the genuine belief.

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” (John 14:21, 1984 NIV)

 

[Marvin Knox]

First off – I am very much aware that works only “follow” faith and do not save in and of themselves. Works are a result of the Holy Spirit working out your total salvation in conjunction with your obedience.

I also realize that it is well nigh impossible to teach a person about living a Godly life from now forward if they have not been convicted by the Holy Spirit Himself before receiving your admonition.

I have been involved in the past in evangelistic programs where they stress just collaring a person and having them say the sinner’s prayer and proclaiming them thereby saved. I don’t believe that is right and I am convinced that many of those who “asked Jesus into their heart” have not been saved. In fact – I was one of them close to 60 years ago. I don’t know how many times I prayed like that with people who loved me. But the truth is that I simply didn’t truly “believe” until the Holy Spirit did a work in me to prepare me.

I have become convinced from both experience and from the scriptures that it is unlikely that anyone will accept Jesus as “SAVIOR” unless they are convinced that there is something to be “SAVED” from. I.E. – one must go down to the river, as it were, in repentance and understanding of their condition before God before he is ready for the appearance of the Savior.

One does not have to beat a person over the head with their sin when presenting the gospel. But by the same token – one should at least ascertain that the person understands that they are in need of a Savior and why. That doesn’t take a complete examination of their life to do. Generalizations will do for a start and then more personal instances from their life can be mentioned as to why they need a Savior after they agree that men do need one to stand before God.

If all goes well – one can then present the work of Christ at Calvary on their behalf – taking the opportunity to stress that that work is the only foundation for salvation and that works do not play a part in basic salvation.

You could and I would think should pray with them to make Jesus Lordship personal.

Always leave with admonitions about personal sin and Lordship after telling them about the Holy Spirit and His ministry in their life from now on out.

If you have opportunity in their life – you can “disciple” them. They can be led into good doctrine and counceled about sin in the life of the believer. Otherwise you have done your work.

They know about the need for the Savior. They know that that need is “personal” in their life.

They understand that Christ’s work is the only foundation for salvation and that any overcoming of sin is only because it is the Holy Spirit in them and their response to His promptings and that that is part of the Christian life forward until this life is over.

The truth is that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him first. But that’s doctrine for another time and place.

The fact is that we can only do so much in the salvation process with others. That includes a call to repentance – a clear presentation of the gospel – and discipleship as the Lord allows in each case.

 

[TurtleAnne]

One does not have to beat a person over the head with their sin when presenting the gospel. But by the same token – one should at least ascertain that the person understands that they are in need of a Savior and why. That doesn’t take a complete examination of their life to do. Generalizations will do for a start and then more personal instances from their life can be mentioned as to why they need a Savior after they agree that men do need one to stand before God.

For some it might also help to nudge them, to contemplate humanity in general together. I find this to be a very common ground among many people, wherever they are at spiritually in their life. When we consider that even though humanity has existed for thousands of years.. look at ourselves. All governments corrupt, war and brutality, murder and rape, child trafficking, greed and hate, and just on and on, as we are destroying our own environment to the point that we can see the massive damage from space.

I think often the ones who are ready to begin the journey, not even necessarily being saved that very day, but to begin the journey, are the ones who are able to consider the state of history and the world, in regards to humankind, and also acknowledge that none of us are inherently special or amazing or anything, and that if nobody has figured out how to resolve humanity's many terrible problems in thousands of years, then chances are it is not possible for humanity to do on our own. Sure we can theorize about how it would be nice to have things certain ways, but in regards to actually making it happen, not so much. Every ideology so far has utterly failed to be carried out in practice. Just look at those with fleeting, earthly power who want centralized government, and claim it is for some great good like world peace, but look at what they cause and what they have done, how power corrupts everyone in the end.

I think often those who care enough to contemplate these things, and are humble enough to realize that none of us have the answers on our own as humans, again are likely ready to begin their spiritual journey.

 

[ToBeLoved]

First off – I am very much aware that works only “follow” faith and do not save in and of themselves. Works are a result of the Holy Spirit working out your total salvation in conjunction with your obedience.

I also realize that it is well nigh impossible to teach a person about living a Godly life from now forward if they have not been convicted by the Holy Spirit Himself before receiving your admonition.

I have been involved in the past in evangelistic programs where they stress just collaring a person and having them say the sinner’s prayer and proclaiming them thereby saved. I don’t believe that is right and I am convinced that many of those who “asked Jesus into their heart” have not been saved. In fact – I was one of them close to 60 years ago. I don’t know how many times I prayed like that with people who loved me. But the truth is that I simply didn’t truly “believe” until the Holy Spirit did a work in me to prepare me.

I have become convinced from both experience and from the scriptures that it is unlikely that anyone will accept Jesus as “SAVIOR” unless they are convinced that there is something to be “SAVED” from. I.E. – one must go down to the river, as it were, in repentance and understanding of their condition before God before he is ready for the appearance of the Savior.

One does not have to beat a person over the head with their sin when presenting the gospel. But by the same token – one should at least ascertain that the person understands that they are in need of a Savior and why. That doesn’t take a complete examination of their life to do. Generalizations will do for a start and then more personal instances from their life can be mentioned as to why they need a Savior after they agree that men do need one to stand before God.

If all goes well – one can then present the work of Christ at Calvary on their behalf – taking the opportunity to stress that that work is the only foundation for salvation and that works do not play a part in basic salvation.

You could and I would think should pray with them to make Jesus Lordship personal.

Always leave with admonitions about personal sin and Lordship after telling them about the Holy Spirit and His ministry in their life from now on out.

If you have opportunity in their life – you can “disciple” them. They can be led into good doctrine and counceled about sin in the life of the believer. Otherwise you have done your work.

They know about the need for the Savior. They know that that need is “personal” in their life.

They understand that Christ’s work is the only foundation for salvation and that any overcoming of sin is only because it is the Holy Spirit in them and their response to His promptings and that that is part of the Christian life forward until this life is over.

The truth is that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him first. But that’s doctrine for another time and place.

The fact is that we can only do so much in the salvation process with others. That includes a call to repentance – a clear presentation of the gospel – and discipleship as the Lord allows in each case.

That reminds me. My church has this really great three page document that illustrates and contains scripture that shows the person why they need salvation, ie sin in an illustration and then has very good scripture that support it. You do the booklet with the person and then they take it with them. I am going to scan a copy of it and post it for you guys to let me know what you think but it is the best thing I have seen in 40 years for explaining to people.

I'd really like to get your opinion about it though.

The method it uses is to show the separation from God. Why (sin) and then how Jesus gives the free gift of salvation to bridge between God and man. and actually get's the person to admit that they have sinned. It's really interesting because it does it all very simply.

 

[ToBeLoved]

For some it might also help to nudge them, to contemplate humanity in general together. I find this to be a very common ground among many people, wherever they are at spiritually in their life. When we consider that even though humanity has existed for thousands of years.. look at ourselves. All governments corrupt, war and brutality, murder and rape, child trafficking, greed and hate, and just on and on, as we are destroying our own environment to the point that we can see the massive damage from space.

I think often the ones who are ready to begin the journey, not even necessarily being saved that very day, but to begin the journey, are the ones who are able to consider the state of history and the world, in regards to humankind, and also acknowledge that none of us are inherently special or amazing or anything, and that if nobody has figured out how to resolve humanity's many terrible problems in thousands of years, then chances are it is not possible for humanity to do on our own. Sure we can theorize about how it would be nice to have things certain ways, but in regards to actually making it happen, not so much. Every ideology so far has utterly failed to be carried out in practice. Just look at those with fleeting, earthly power who want centralized government, and claim it is for some great good like world peace, but look at what they cause and what they have done, how power corrupts everyone in the end.

I think often those who care enough to contemplate these things, and are humble enough to realize that none of us have the answers on our own as humans, again are likely ready to begin their spiritual journey.

This is really good as well as reasoning for basically why and how sin has really impacted the world in a way that people understand. and very quickly will get the meaning of.

 

[masmpg]

And I just want to be clear I am not advocating that salvation is dependent on you doing x number of good things per day, or a checklist of deeds, but I am opposed to people praying the sinners prayer at one point in their life, then living just like the world without care or conviction and believing them to be saved because they recited a magic formula or got their jesus flu shot. I think legalism is wrong and that is not what I'm propagating, but I want to make it clear that yes you trust in Christ for salvation, but the genuine believer will become sensitive to the sin in their life, and will begin to change their lifestyle to better form to the holiness of Christ,or to walk as He walked.

The Comforter is working with you. Never let anyone take that conviction from you. We are convicted by the comforter of sin and righteousness and judgment.These are our guideposts on our walk of sanctification to heaven.

Most who believe in forensic justification, which is "call upon the Name of the Lord once and you will be "saved" eternally", are following the popular teachings of their favorite pastor or evangelist, and not the conviction of the Comforter. In fact they also believe that when we are "saved" there is nothing left for us to do, or follow, or anything, thus removing the job of the Comforter on their walk to heaven.

Remember this, Romans:1:5: "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" We have been given grace FOR obedience. There is nothing wrong with telling people we must obey, BUT the ONLY way we can obey is through faith in Jesus. Grace is the power that gives us victory over sin every day of or lives. We do not obey to be saved we obey because we are saved and love God, and love to do what He demands of His children as He convicts us through the working of the Comforter.

All those who are being convicted will be in total agreement with this. There is only ONE church and ONE Spirit who convinces all in all parts of the world. This is how 3000 people were converted in one day on the day of pentecost when the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples. All God's children will have the same mind...1Corinthians:1:10: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

 

[hedrick]

You don't have to judge your co-workers' salvation. So in some ways I don't think the original question is the right one. I think you can say to someone, as Paul did, that there are things Christians don't do. And just as important, things that they do. You can say this without having to judge whether they're saved or not.

I think you can also say that according to Jesus we will be accountable for what we do and don't do. He didn't give us details for just how judgement is going to work, but he pretty clearly talks about greater and lesser rewards. Note also 1 Cor 3:12 ff.

But dealing with co-workers is a difficult issue. If you were a church leader with a responsibility for discipline this would be easier. You need to think whether your relationship with them justifies you saying something. If they don't consider you to be in a position to say something, this could look like workplace harassment.

 

[masmpg]

The main reason the church is in the condition it is in today is: 1. Practically every mainstream denomination teaches that we will never stop sinning this side of heaven, and with that thought how can anybody reprove sin? I talked to many people about standing for the truth and they tell me that they do not "feel" like they are suppose to admonish someone when they are doing wrong. I ask them this; If your child, brother, friend were just about to jump off a cliff would you let them? Would you encourage them to jump? Would you stand ten feet away and whisper to them not to jump? Or would you grab them and tackle them and force them not to jump? The church has been jumping off this spiritual cliff for a olong time and it will only get worse until Christians realize trhat Jesus came to show us that we can live sinless lives, and they His grace, which was given FOR obedience, Romans 1:5, can not only pardon our past sins when we ask Him to, but also give us the power we need to have victory every day and be more than overcomers through the blood of Jesus.

2. God gave gifts to men. ALL Christians have a gift some have more then one, but we all have gifts. The most important of these gifts, preaching, teaching, and ministering have great responsibilities associated with them. When correction is needed it is the duty of all those who exercise their gift to carry it out whether we "feel" like it or not. Do you think John the baptist "felt" like calling the pharisees "brood of vipers" knowing that his head is at stake? Of Elijah when he told the most wicked king ever, Ahab that he is the troubler in Israel? If we "feel"like it or not we are to stand on the pillar of faith and know that we are doing the right thing.

Jesus said in Revelation:3:19: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." Contrary to the popular deception of satan, which calls loving reproof "hatred", admonition, reproof, rebuke, all show our love not only to God but to our fellow brethren and sisters in Christ. I desire to have people tell me when I am doing wrong, but far too often the rumor mill kicks in and the whole congregation hears about the sins of brethren and sisters before the guilty one does, to the destruction of that brother or sister. We MUST stop our ears to anything like that!

 

[ToBeLoved]

You don't have to judge your co-workers' salvation. So in some ways I don't think the original question is the right one. I think you can say to someone, as Paul did, that there are things Christians don't do. And just as important, things that they do. You can say this without having to judge whether they're saved or not.

I think you can also say that according to Jesus we will be accountable for what we do and don't do. He didn't give us details for just how judgement is going to work, but he pretty clearly talks about greater and lesser rewards. Note also 1 Cor 3:12 ff.

But dealing with co-workers is a difficult issue. If you were a church leader with a responsibility for discipline this would be easier. You need to think whether your relationship with them justifies you saying something. If they don't consider you to be in a position to say something, this could look like workplace harassment.

I agree. Co-workers and rebuke almost always does not end well.

I also agree about it could be considered workplace harrassment.

Avoid it in the workplace, we can make ourselves seem like bad people and judgemental and bias if we are not very, very, very careful.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The main reason the church is in the condition it is in today is: 1. Practically every mainstream denomination teaches that we will never stop sinning this side of heaven, and with that thought how can anybody reprove sin?

I disagree that that teaching is the "main reason the church is in the condition it is in today".

The scriptures aren't completely clear about whether we can possibly cease from sinning in this life. But IMO they make it pretty clear that it is highly unlikely.

In any case, I see no reason why the teaching that we cannot completely stop sinning in this life should lead the church into sin.

If anything it forms a platform for reproving sin and warning against temptations.

In fact Paul's admission that he sinned in this life even though saved formed a basis for not only preaching about grace.

It also allowed Paul to come along side others as a fellow sinner in order to facilitate reproof of sin in their lives.

I know he has done that for me through personal testimony about his sinful nature .

 

[JohannaSK]

On a general level, my answer to the question in the title...

The main point of the gospel is forgiveness of sins because they have been atoned for by Jesus on the cross.

The atoning grace, the mercy of God is what is special about Christianity. It's surprising, it's out of this world. This fallen world constantly says "you must earn good things, if you don't deserve it, you won't get it!"

The logic of merit is hardwired in the human brain. Usually only in young children can be seen the unquestioning openness to something good they haven't deserved for themselves.

I'm afraid that if one includes obedience in the sharing of the gospel, the attention of the recipient gets stolen by Satan and s/he'll end up thinking "oh, this is just another religion where you have to do a list of things to get to some paradise...".

This happens so easily because s/he is predisposed to think like that.

When sharing the gospel I think it's enough to say something like "and follow Jesus...". If the recipient becomes a Christian, s/he'll understand later what it means...

 

[EmSw]

I disagree that that teaching is the "main reason the church is in the condition it is in today".

The scriptures aren't completely clear about whether we can possibly cease from sinning in this life. But IMO they make it pretty clear that it is highly unlikely.

So you don't believe this passage Marvin?

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Is this passage not clear to you. Perhaps you think it should say 'some' things.