Should obedience be mentioned when preaching the gospel?

[masmpg]

On a general level, my answer to the question in the title...

The main point of the gospel is forgiveness of sins because they have been atoned for by Jesus on the cross.

The main focus of the gospel is grace. In Romans:1:5: we read this "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" We have been given grace FOR obedience. Many, yea most of Christendom have no idea what this even means. Grace is the power of the gospel, and we find grace at the cross. When we ask the Lord to forgive our sins we are to have the faith to know that this grace is sufficient and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, BUT it does not stop there. When we are tempted we are to go to the cross and gather the power needed to overcome every temptation and have victory over every sin in our lives. This is the power of grace that few even know exists. Far too many will say "I am "saved" by grace" and that is all I need, when in fact that attitude will cause the loss of many.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So you don't believe this passage Marvin?

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Is this passage not clear to you. Perhaps you think it should say 'some' things.

I believe the passage in the context that it was meant.

"............for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Nevertheless, you have done well to share with me in my affliction." Philippians 4:11-14

I do not believe that a man can fly, breath in outer space, or live 2000 years - regardless of your quoting that scripture for us.

Nor do I believe that we can be totally without sin while we still have the sin nature living in us.

Speaking only for myself, I am like Paul in this regard.

Romans 7:14-23 "14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in Godʼs law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me."

You, of course, may be stronger than Paul and I and be able to achieve complete holiness in this life. If that is the case - more power to you.

I do believe that, if that is the case, you are the exception to the general rule we find in scripture.

I left it open for that to be the case and you still chose to quote a scripture out of context just to argue with me.

This all the argument you will get from me on this.

Have a nice sinless day.

 

[masmpg]

NVMD

 

[masmpg]

Romans 7:14-23 "14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in Godʼs law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me."

I try to agree as much as possible, but here I have to share what is really going on in Romans 7. Most of us mistakingly use this chapter to prove that a Christian struggles with these things. But this is far from the truth. Paul write in verse 14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." Then he goes on to explain the struggle he is having with the carnal nature. In verse
24 he states his realization that he cannot help himself "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Here he sees the struggle as futile as he cries out "oh wretched man that I am..." Then in the last verse he accepts the only solution to this carnal nature problem which we all have been through before we are converted.
Romans:7:25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." This is just the beginning of the Christian walk of sanctification because in chapter 8 we start to read about the walk on the road to heaven. Read what Paul says about the carnal mind which can never please God. In chapter 7:14 he admits to being carnal sold under sin, but in chapter 8 all that is gone and he is new in Christ and living Christ's righteousness not his own after the "old man" is crucified. Romans:8:1-8: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Galatians:2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." when we are living Christ's righteousness in us we cannot sin. We are saved by grace through faith. Our faith must grab hold of the power of grace knowing that when we confess our sins He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and AND, this is the biggie, when we are tempted we have the power of that grace through the cross for complete victory. Our Christian walk of sanctification is a battle, and we can win every battle in Jesus Name. To say we will never stop sinning is an admission that we are NOT overcomers. When we are converted the strong language used to describe that event is so drastic, we are crucified, dead in baptism, and come up new in Christ. We cannot be half dead, either we are living in the fleshly carnal nature or we are living in the Spirit through obedience to the faith Romans 1:5.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I try to agree as much as possible, but here I have to share what is really going on in Romans 7. Most of us mistakingly use this chapter to prove that a Christian struggles with these things. But this is far from the truth. Paul write in verse 14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." Then he goes on to explain the struggle he is having with the carnal nature. In verse
24 he states his realization that he cannot help himself "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Here he sees the struggle as futile as he cries out "oh wretched man that I am..." Then in the last verse he accepts the only solution to this carnal nature problem which we all have been through before we are converted.
Romans:7:25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." This is just the beginning of the Christian walk of sanctification because in chapter 8 we start to read about the walk on the road to heaven. Read what Paul says about the carnal mind which can never please God. In chapter 7:14 he admits to being carnal sold under sin, but in chapter 8 all that is gone and he is new in Christ and living Christ's righteousness not his own after the "old man" is crucified. Romans:8:1-8: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Galatians:2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." when we are living Christ's righteousness in us we cannot sin. We are saved by grace through faith. Our faith must grab hold of the power of grace knowing that when we confess our sins He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and AND, this is the biggie, when we are tempted we have the power of that grace through the cross for complete victory. Our Christian walk of sanctification is a battle, and we can win every battle in Jesus Name. To say we will never stop sinning is an admission that we are NOT overcomers. When we are converted the strong language used to describe that event is so drastic, we are crucified, dead in baptism, and come up new in Christ. We cannot be half dead, either we are living in the fleshly carnal nature or we are living in the Spirit through obedience to the faith Romans 1:5.

As I read the passage - we are stuck for the time being with two natures. One nature (the new nature) can't and won't sin. The other nature (what Paul calls the old man or the "flesh) can and will sin.

Paul speaks of his sin not pre-salvation but rather in the present tense in chapter 7.

You seem to be saying that the Apostle Paul was saved sometime between writing chapter 7 and chapter 8 of the book of Romans.

If you are only saying that we should sow to the spirit rather than the flesh - everyone agrees about that.

 

[masmpg]

If you are only saying that we should sow to the spirit rather than the flesh - everyone agrees about that.

What I am saying is that when Paul said in verse 14 "I am carnal, sold under sin" He is referring to before he has died to the flesh. We are crucified to the flesh and carnal nature, meaning it no longer lives in us, after we are converted.. If we are in the flesh we cannot please God. This is very simple reasoning from Paul's writings. To say that being sold under sin is a Christian experience is not biblical. This is why the analogy of dies in baptism is used to show just how drastic the change in our life is. We cannot cover up our sinful nature, we cannot be carnal and Christian at the same time, Paul makes that clear in Romans 8. A Christian is an overcomer through the merits and blood of Jesus. A Christian has the mind of Christ. If you can have the mind of Christ and still sin, well, that does not work according to 1 John 3.

 

[Greg J.]

Paul teaches that our spirits are reborn and we are to act like we really are. But in this life we are not just spirits. We have a sinful nature that we struggle with, even as saved Christians.

... So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (Romans 7:25b, 1984 NIV)

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? (James 4:1, 1984 NIV)

Sanctification (of which our efforts to obey are a part of) is the process of God transforming our experience of ourselves from who were were (dead flesh, dead spirit) into Jesus' likeness (dead flesh, living spirit).

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10, 1984 NIV)

 

[EmSw]

Paul teaches that our spirits are reborn and we are to act like we really are. But in this life we are not just spirits. We have a sinful nature that we struggle with, even as saved Christians.

If it's just the spirit that's reborn, how do you deal with this passage?

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[Greg J.]

There's also:

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23, 1984 NIV)

Being reborn doesn't mean the new us can't be affected by sin.

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (bold mine, Philippians 2:12-13, 1984 NIV)

Every Christian was saved (at rebirth), is being saved (transformed into Jesus likeness, a consequence of choosing and acting to obey), and will be saved ("finished," ala 1 John 3:2).

A reborn flesh will not age, get sick, or die. i.e., at the resurrection.

 

[EmSw]

There's also:

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23, 1984 NIV)

Being reborn doesn't mean the new us can't be affected by sin.

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (bold mine, Philippians 2:12-13, 1984 NIV)

Every Christian was saved (at rebirth), is being saved (transformed into Jesus likeness, a consequence of choosing and acting to obey), and will be saved ("finished," ala 1 John 3:2).

A reborn flesh will not age, get sick, or die. i.e., at the resurrection.

So, in your eyes, being reborn is nothing new. You still act the same you did when living in sin. Being reborn is just words.

Paul says to put off the old man and put on the new. Notice the order. Almost everyone has it backwards. They think they put on the new man and then put off the old man.

Ezekiel said to cast away all your iniquities to make yourself a new heart and new spirit. Most think we get a new heart and new spirit, and then cast away our iniquities.

 

[Greg J.]

So, in your eyes, being reborn is nothing new. You still act the same you did when living in sin. Being reborn is just words.

Not sure where this came from. My post makes three references to how we must be obedient (a product of being reborn).

 

[EmSw]

Not sure where this came from. My post makes three references to how we must be obedient (a product of being reborn).

Sorry, I reread your post.

 

[EmSw]

I believe the passage in the context that it was meant.

"............for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Nevertheless, you have done well to share with me in my affliction." Philippians 4:11-14

What do you do with these words of Jesus?

John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

John 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

I do not believe that a man can fly, breath in outer space, or live 2000 years - regardless of your quoting that scripture for us.

Flying, breathing in space, and living 2,000 years is not a sin.

Nor do I believe that we can be totally without sin while we still have the sin nature living in us.

Speaking only for myself, I am like Paul in this regard.

Romans 7:14-23 "14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in Godʼs law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me."

Since you are like Paul in regards to sinning, do you keep doing the evil you do not want to do? This is rebellion and disobedience to the Lord.

If any pastor preached Paul's message from the pulpit (which I have never heard), I would take my kids and wife, and flee that church. According to the pastor's own words, he can't stop stealing, lying, and committing adultery, if that's not what he wants to do.

So Marvin, are you saying that if you want to tell us the truth here, you knowingly and willingly lie to us?

You, of course, may be stronger than Paul and I and be able to achieve complete holiness in this life. If that is the case - more power to you.

I do believe that, if that is the case, you are the exception to the general rule we find in scripture.

I can tell you this Marvin, I do not want to lie, and I sure don't make the excuse it's the sin in me that makes me lie. I overcome it and tell the truth.

If the church is filled with the kind of people who do not want to sin, but do it anyway, His church will never be spotless and without blame.

I left it open for that to be the case and you still chose to quote a scripture out of context just to argue with me.

This all the argument you will get from me on this.

Have a nice sinless day.

As the Creator Himself said, 'sin no more'.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What I am saying is that when Paul said in verse 14 "I am carnal, sold under sin" He is referring to before he has died to the flesh. We are crucified to the flesh and carnal nature, meaning it no longer lives in us, after we are converted.

Again, I point out, Paul is talking in chapter 7 in the present tense when talking about his sinful thoughts and activities.

That being the case - are you saying that Paul was not yet "converted" in chapter 7 and "was converted" in chapter 8? I doubt that you are saying that. So are you saying that we are converted and reconverted many times as we fall into sin in this life? Are you saying that we are then converted (or saved) again when we repent perhaps many times etc.?

I know that many here end up being in that quandary in their theology - whether they mean to end up there or not. Some are there simply because they have not thought things through and some are here because they are in reality preaching a different way to salvation than the simple gospel which many of us have rested our hope in.

If we are in the flesh we cannot please God. This is very simple reasoning from Paul's writings. To say that being sold under sin is a Christian experience is not biblical.

Then why does Paul use that analogy concerning himself in chapter 7? Was he not saved in chapter 7 when he spoke of his condition in the present tense?

This is why the analogy of dies in baptism is used to show just how drastic the change in our life is. We cannot cover up our sinful nature, we cannot be carnal and Christian at the same time, Paul makes that clear in Romans 8.

So Paul was not really baptized in a meaningful way until after he wrote chapter 7 of Romans?

A Christian is an overcomer through the merits and blood of Jesus. A Christian has the mind of Christ.

Exactly! Praise the Lord.

If you can have the mind of Christ and still sin, well, that does not work according to 1 John 3.

Than Paul would be in conflict with John on that point.

You need to understand the idea of the old nature vs. the new nature which both live in us. You need to understand the Kingdom of God which is within us and our entering the Kingdom by force as we take hold of the promises of God and apply to our lives - or not as the case may be from time to time.

You need to understand that we can be "saved" and still not be over comers in the Kingdom but be overcome by sin rather that taking control of it by force as true disciples of Christ who sow the spirit rather than the flesh day by day. Not everyone who is saved "takes up his cross daily" and follows the Spirit of God within them.

You need to take a good class in systematic theology. Like many here - you seem to be picking which side of the paradoxes of scripture you prefer rather than understanding how the two sides meld together in correct exposition of the mind of the Lord.

At least that is the way I see your dilemma.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What do you do with these words of Jesus?
John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
John 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

I take them exactly in the context in which they were written and I apply them to my own situations as the Holy Spirt convicts me.

Flying, breathing in space, and living 2,000 years is not a sin.

They are an example of "all things" to which you apply the verse in question. Or do you just apply things as you see fit just to argue in the forum?

Since you are like Paul in regards to sinning, do you keep doing the evil you do not want to do? This is rebellion and disobedience to the Lord..

Exactly! Duh!

If any pastor preached Paul's message from the pulpit (which I have never heard), I would take my kids and wife, and flee that church.

And you and yours would be the poorer for it.

According to the pastor's own words, he can't stop stealing, lying, and committing adultery, if that's not what he wants to do.

Paul did not specify those sins in chapter 7 of Romans and I doubt that he did all those things after his conversion. Lying perhaps - but not likely the others.

He (and the aforementioned pastor only admitted that they struggled with sin (and occasionally failed - just as is true for most of us. That is unless we are too self righteous to admit and pay like the rejected pharisee rather than the tax collector.

So Marvin, are you saying that if you want to tell us the truth here, you knowingly and willingly lie to us?

I cannot recall lying to you nor have I said that I have.
Where do you get this stuff???

I can tell you this Marvin, I do not want to lie, and I sure don't make the excuse it's the sin in me that makes me lie. I overcome it and tell the truth.

I don't know about Paul lying. He did not say that he did.

But if you do not sin in various ways you are unlike Paul and myself and more like Jesus than any man I've ever met.

(Or more like the pharisee who prayed to himself when he mistakenly thought that he was praying to God. )

If the church is filled with the kind of people who do not want to sin, but do it anyway, His church will never be spotless and without blame.

You are obviously ignorant of how the elect are declared righteous before the Lord.

As the Creator Himself said, 'sin no more'.

I heard Him loud and clear. I will continue to do my best - just like Paul and the other disciples of the Lord did.

 

[EmSw]

I take them exactly in the context in which they were written and I apply them to my own situations as the Holy Spirt convicts me.

They are an example of "all things" to which you apply the verse in question. Or do you just apply things as you see fit just to argue in the forum?

They apply to spiritual situations.

And you and yours would be the poorer for it.

If my pastor said the things Paul did in Romans 7, he would be a hypocrite, and I would not be poorer for leaving.

Paul did not specify those sins in chapter 7 of Romans and I doubt that he did all those things after his conversion. Lying perhaps - but not likely the others.

Which sin would make you cringe when Paul said the things I do not want to do, I do them anyway?

He (and the aforementioned pastor only admitted that they struggled with sin (and occasionally failed - just as is true for most of us. That is unless we are too self righteous to admit and pay like the rejected pharisee rather than the tax collector.

That's not what Paul said, Marvin. He didn't say he struggled with sin, he said he did them.

I cannot recall lying to you nor have I said that I have.
Where do you get this stuff???

I don't know about Paul lying. He did not say that he did.

But if you do not sin in various ways you are unlike Paul and myself and more like Jesus than any man I've ever met.

So who do you want to be like - Paul or Jesus?

(Or more like the pharisee who prayed to himself when he mistakenly thought that he was praying to God. )

You are obviously ignorant of how the elect are declared righteous before the Lord.

I heard Him loud and clear. I will continue to do my best - just like Paul and the other disciples of the Lord did.

Those who continue to practice unrighteousness are not born of God.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Why are you trying to justify continual sinning? Those born of God practice righteousness (good works).

 

[Marvin Knox]

So who do you want to be like - Paul or Jesus?

The words of Paul in the scriptures are the words of the Spirit of Christ within him - i.e. the words of Jesus.

I will be like Jesus someday because I will see Him as He really is. Right now I'm like Paul (and every other Christian who is born of God.

Those who continue to practice unrighteousness are not born of God.

Duh! You and I can both read. Congratulations.

Why are you trying to justify continual sinning?

No one is "trying to justify continual sinning."

Where do you get this stuff.

Those born of God practice righteousness (good works).

Again - duh! You and I can both read. Congratulations.

That will do it for us again.

You are a purposeful misrepresenter of what other people say and believe.

It won't get you any closer to Heaven in and of itself. But you need to not lie about what others say and believe.

Such people will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

I will not continue casting the pearls of the Holy Spirit before swine.

Good luck on getting to Heaven with your gospel of works.

 

[EmSw]

The words of Paul in the scriptures are the words of the Spirit of Christ within him - i.e. the words of Jesus.

I will be like Jesus someday because I will see Him as He really is. Right now I'm like Paul (and every other Christian who is born of God.

Duh! You and I can both read. Congratulations.

No one is "trying to justify continual sinning."

Where do you get this stuff.

Again - duh! You and I can both read. Congratulations.

That will do it for us again.

You are a purposeful misrepresenter of what other people say and believe. Such people will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

It won't get you any closer to Heaven in and of itself. But you need to not lie about what others say and believe.

I will not continue casting the pearls of the Holy Spirit before swine.

Good luck on getting to Heaven with your gospel of works.

And good luck to you getting to heaven with your gospel of evil works.

 

[masmpg]

Again, I point out, Paul is talking in chapter 7 in the present tense when talking about his sinful thoughts and activities.

Paul is explaining the conversion experience. One does not have to be unconverted in order to explain the process of becoming converted. As we are drawn to Christ we are convicted that the good I want to do I do not do it. This is not a converted experience because when we are dead to the flesh, which happens at conversion we will do the good we want to do.

That being the case - are you saying that Paul was not yet "converted" in chapter 7 and "was converted" in chapter 8?

I believe that Paul or Tertius who wrote for Paul was converted when he wrote the book of Romans, but this does not mean he was unconverted because he was explaining the process of becoming converted.

I know that many here end up being in that quandary in their theology - whether they mean to end up there or not. Some are there simply because they have not thought things through and some are here because they are in reality preaching a different way to salvation than the simple gospel which many of us have rested our hope in.

Yes the gospel is so simple. The giant philosophical intellectuals try to twist it to put themselves into the place of God, most of the time for filthy lucre. Those who stand in front of audiences just to get people to follow them do not want anybody to really understand the bible, and many of these sheeple will only believe it because their pastor said it.

Exactly! Praise the Lord.

The huge problem here is that most of Christianity say they have the mind of Christ but they will never stop sinning, nor will they ever have any victory over sin in their lives. Nowhere in the bible are we told that we cannot stop sinning. That is the greatest lie of satan, and has most of Christendom deceived by it and arguing against overcoming sin.

Than Paul would be in conflict with John on that point.
You need to understand the idea of the old nature vs. the new nature which both live in us. You need to understand the Kingdom of God which is within us and our entering the Kingdom by force as we take hold of the promises of God and apply to our lives - or not as the case may be from time to time.You need to understand that we can be "saved" and still not be over comers in the Kingdom but be overcome by sin rather that taking control of it by force as true disciples of Christ who sow the spirit rather than the flesh day by day. Not everyone who is saved "takes up his cross daily" and follows the Spirit of God within them.

We do not live after the flesh. We live in a body of flesh and bone, but when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour the flesh is dead in Christ. There can be no half way on this. Either our flesh is alive, or dead in Christ through baptism. Paul uses this analogy over and over to show how drastic the change is. It is not a gradual putting off of the flesh. At conversion, which is the end of the process of wooing by the Holy Spirit we die in baptism, and come up new in Christ. Paul puts it this way in Romans:6:6: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." To say that we can sin and not serve sin at the same time is oxymoron. Read, and pray that the Comforter will reveal the true meaning of 1 John 3 to your heart.

You need to take a good class in systematic theology. Like many here - you seem to be picking which side of the paradoxes of scripture you prefer rather than understanding how the two sides meld together in correct exposition of the mind of the Lord.

I do not need any man to teach me according to Paul and John. John puts it this way in 1John:2:27: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." Teachers are good as far as they take us, but to follow any man will only lead to their understanding and not a reliance on the anointing of the Comforter who guides us into all truth John 16:13, and teaches us all things John 14:26. Far too many will only follow the group because it is convenient, and emotionally uplifting, which has little to nothing to do with the gospel.

At least that is the way I see your dilemma.

I have no dilemma. I know that if all professors of Christ would read, pray about and understand John 14-17 there would be ONE denomination and one translation of scriptures.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Paul is explaining the conversion experience. ............ I believe that Paul or Tertius who wrote for Paul was converted when he wrote the book of Romans, but this does not mean he was unconverted because he was explaining the process of becoming converted.

Paul was talking about himself in the present tense in chapter 7.

He was not teaching about some theological concept concerning conversion in general.

He told us that he often sinned in his life after conversion and that the only real remedy in the long run was release from this body after this life is over.

This is not theological rocket surgery.

Read it in context and apply it to your own life and you will have no problem. If you approach most scriptures with a prior theological bias (as you are doing apparently) you can make scripture teach just about anything you want to.

It's been nice sharing with you. What you do with the simple teaching of Paul in Romans 7 isnow up to you.