Should obedience be mentioned when preaching the gospel?

1John2:4

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The order is what's important. First comes faith, then comes obedience. Not out of fear, but from trust. Trying to drive sin out of your life is a failing mission. Instead, you follow the light of God, and sin will naturally be washed away.
I have a co worker who asks me a lot of questions about Christianity and faith. He grew up catholic but has mixed into a lot of eastern spirituality. We are supposed to meet outside of work for lunch and I am going to present the gospel to him.

Now, we are told that salvation is from Christ alone. I can not earn salvation with good works. It is only by trusting in His provisional death and Resurrection that will save men and forgive them of their sins. But the Bible has a strong call for believers to bear good fruit. Christ even said that He will judge his own by their fruit, to sort out the true christians and the fake.

I believe this is sort of like the order of operations law in mathematics. You don't produce good fruit and then God finds favor in you and then you are saved. It is that you get saved (calling out to Christ) then by being given the holy spirit, the evidence that you are being saved is that you bear fruit of the spirit.

I want to ask your help because I know there are 2 other coworkers that claim they are Christian. The one I will call T, swears a lot and has a very graphic sense of humor (almost always making homosexual jokes) When I even said to him that he is cussing a lot he said he didn't care. My other coworker J says that he is saved yet is not bothered that his girlfriend is atheist, brags about having sex with her, and says that all religions are the same and denies the Bible is truth.

Now, I know I used to have a problem with profanity. I said such terrible things in frustration at work (my job can be very hard) but I felt conviction about it and sought forgiveness with God. I prayed the Holy Spirit would muzzle my foul tongue and that only godly things would be spoken from my mouth. I admit I occasionally let something slip but I can clearly see a difference and still seek to make my words obedient to Christ.

I look to my other coworkers and I do not see that. I see no conviction or desire to change. I am not going around trying to determine who is saved and who is not, but I believe that the genuine believer will have remorse for their sin. I've been listening to a lot of preaching by paul washer, and agree with him that there are too many christians who live and act and talk just like the world and that we will know them by their fruit. I know he is not talking about perfectionism there.

What would your advice be? And my friend's name is Gerardo. Please pray that his heart would be opened to believe on Christ for forgiveness and salvation.
Be a light, friend. The world is difficult and full of hypocrites. Do good works and let your light shine on your Co workers that is what truly changes ones heart.
 
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Greg J.

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Re: Should obedience be mentioned when preaching the gospel?

Preaching obedience is essential for salvation, because we cannot give ourselves faith for salvation. We need God to give it to us.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. (bold mine, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1984 NIV)

The Mosaic Law, as well as obedience to God's commands in general, leads us to Christ.

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. (bold mine, Galatians 3:24, 1984 NIV)

If we do not recognize that we are being disobedient, we can't genuinely recognize our need for forgiveness.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Re: Should obedience be mentioned when preaching the gospel?

Preaching obedience is essential for salvation, because we cannot give ourselves faith for salvation. We need God to give it to us.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. (bold mine, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1984 NIV)
What is the gift?
* grace- The Father sending His Son to die for sin
* or faith

I think the gift of grace is the cross. Without the cross conquering sin, we would not have a covenant of faith, but the Mosaic Covenant no one could keep.

Because what could not be boasted about?
* faith in Christ
* unmerited favor through His death on the cross

grace means 'unmerited favor'.
 
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Greg J.

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I agree. My response is because so many think they are saved when they are not. What do you tell a person that wants to be saved, but neither you nor they can tell if their belief is saving belief?

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (bold mine, Matthew 28:19-20, 1984 NIV)

Praying the sinner's prayer is not what saves a person. It is when they believe in Jesus with saving faith. Sometimes the sinner's prayer is the result of genuine belief (so they were already saved or turn the corner from praying it). However, after praying the sinner's prayer some people are still not saved. Since the person sharing the gospel, and probably the person hearing it, cannot tell if they genuinely believe, it is important that they understand that their commitment means they recognize/acknowledge/accept God's Lordship, and hence the need to be obedient, and accept from the Lord's hand whatever he gives. They don't need to obey to be saved, they need to know to obey to have saving faith.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I agree. My response is because so many think they are saved when they are not. What do you tell a person that wants to be saved, but neither you nor they can tell if their belief is saving belief?

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (bold mine, Matthew 28:19-20, 1984 NIV)

Praying the sinner's prayer is not what saves a person. It is when they believe in Jesus with saving faith. Sometimes the sinner's prayer is the result of genuine belief (so they were already saved or turn the corner from praying it). However, after praying the sinner's prayer some people are still not saved. Since the person sharing the gospel, and probably the person hearing it, cannot tell if they genuinely believe, it is important that they understand that their commitment means they recognize/acknowledge/accept God's Lordship, and hence the need to be obedient, and accept from the Lord's hand whatever he gives. They don't need to obey to be saved, they need to know to obey to have saving faith.
If a person has the Holy Spirit, then they are saved. Period.

Because the Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant.

If the person comes to Christ with a sincere heart believing that He is the Son of God who died on the cross and shed His blood for them and if they have faith that the Son of God forgives sins of those who believe and have faith in Him then they are ok.

The question that we cannot answer for them is the sincerity in their hearts of their beliefs and if they have that faith that Jesus is who He said He is and that He forgives the sins of His Children when they repent.

We can not answer the sincerity questions for them or if they have faith and turn from sin in repetance.
 
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ToBeLoved

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What do you tell someone who may or may not have the Holy Spirit?
I can share some verses and then a few links. Let me know if it makes sense.

This is what Jesus told His disciples about the Holy Spirit.

John 14:25-27

25“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27“Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


Question: "What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?"

Answer:
The Holy Spirit is referred to as the “deposit,” “seal,” and “earnest” in the hearts of Christians (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). The Holy Spirit is God’s seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. The Greek word translated “earnest” in these passages is arrhabōn which means “a pledge,” that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest. The gift of the Spirit to believers is a down payment on our heavenly inheritance, which Christ has promised us and secured for us at the cross. It is because the Spirit has sealed us that we are assured of our salvation. No one can break the seal of God.

The Holy Spirit is given to believers as a “first installment” to assure us that our full inheritance as children of God will be delivered. The Holy Spirit is given to us to confirm to us that we belong to God who grants to us His Spirit as a gift, just as grace and faith are gifts (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the gift of the Spirit, God renews and sanctifies us. He produces in our hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are evidence that we are accepted by God, that we are regarded as His adopted children, that our hope is genuine, and that our redemption and salvation are sure in the same way that a seal guarantees a will or an agreement. God grants to us His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that we are His forever and shall be saved in the last day. The proof of the Spirit’s presence is His operations on the heart which produce repentance, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), conformity to God’s commands and will, a passion for prayer and praise, and love for His people. These things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption.

So it is through the Holy Spirit and His teachings and guiding power that we are sealed and confirmed until the day of redemption, complete and free from the corruption of sin and the grave. Because we have the seal of the Spirit in our hearts, we can live joyfully, confident of our sure place in a future that holds unimaginable glories.
What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?



Question: "When / How do we receive the Holy Spirit?"

Answer:
The apostle Paul clearly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. First Corinthians 12:13 declares, “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” Romans 8:9 tells us that if a person does not possess the Holy Spirit, he or she does not belong to Christ: “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe: “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”

These three passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of salvation. Paul could not say that we all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink if not all of the Corinthian believers possessed the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 is even stronger, stating that if a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ. Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the possession of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit could not be the “seal of salvation” (Ephesians 1:13-14) if He is not received at the moment of salvation. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Christ as Savior.

This discussion is controversial because the ministries of the Holy Spirit are often confused. The receiving/indwelling of the Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation. The filling of the Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life. While we hold that the baptism of the Spirit also occurs at the moment of salvation, some Christians do not. This sometimes results in the baptism of the Spirit being confused with “receiving the Spirit” as an act subsequent to salvation.

In conclusion, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit by simply receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:5-16). When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit becomes our permanent possession the moment we believe.
How can I be filled with the Holy Spirit?



Question: "What is salvation? "

Answer:
Salvation is deliverance from danger or suffering. To save is to deliver or protect. The word carries the idea of victory, health, or preservation. Sometimes, the Bible uses the words saved or salvation to refer to temporal, physical deliverance, such as Paul’s deliverance from prison (Philippians 1:19).

More often, the word “salvation” concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).

What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

Who does the saving? Only God can remove sin and deliver us from sin’s penalty (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).

How does God save? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, God has rescued us through Christ (John 3:17). Specifically, it was Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that achieved our salvation (Romans 5:10; Ephesians 1:7). Scripture is clear that salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God (Ephesians 2:5, 8) and is only available through faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).

How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).

A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.
What is salvation? What is the Christian doctrine of salvation?
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP: Q1:"Should "obedience" be mentioned when "preaching" the "gospel"?

A2: NO!
QUESTIONS:
1. If an unbeliever asks you (a true believer?):
" What must I DO to be saved?"
What is your short and direct answer?
What is your witness and invitation?
2. If an believer asks you:
"What should DO during a SANCTIFICATION PROCESS?"
What is your LONG and direct answer?
 
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EmSw

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OP: Q1:"Should "obedience" be mentioned when "preaching" the "gospel"?

A2: NO!
QUESTIONS:
1. If an unbeliever asks you (a true believer?):
" What must I DO to be saved?"
What is your short and direct answer?
What is your witness and invitation?
2. If an believer asks you:
"What should DO during a SANCTIFICATION PROCESS?"
What is your LONG and direct answer?

Give them the words of Jesus.

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you
...

Observe is to obey.
 
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Ron Gurley

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IF the person is a truly saved John 3 spiritually changed from above BELIEVER, offer these verses:

John 14:15...Jesus' BIG "IF's"
IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.(PRECEPTS: LOVE COMMANDED!)

Such as: "FOLLOW" + "OBEY" + TRUST + be in the WILL OF GOD + "LOVE "one another" + ETC

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, IF you have love for "one another".”

John 14:23...Jesus answered and said to him,
IF anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our abode (DWELLING) with him.

John 15:10
IF you keep My commandments, you will abide (DWELL) in My love;
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Romans 13:9
For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,”
and IF there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (#1=LOVE GOD + #2=LOVE NEIGHBOR AS SELF)
 
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Ron Gurley

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RESPONSE to post#53:

Jesus the Christ gave the "Great Commission" in Matthew 28 in private to 11 BELIEVING apostles/disciples/followers.
UNbelievers would neither "observe" nor "obey".

1 Peter 1:2...to BELIEVERS ONLY!
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of (God) the (Holy) Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ (God the Son) and be sprinkled with His blood:
May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
 
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EmSw

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RESPONSE to post#53:

Jesus the Christ gave the "Great Commission" in Matthew 28 in private to 11 BELIEVING apostles/disciples/followers.
UNbelievers would neither "observe" nor "obey".

1 Peter 1:2...to BELIEVERS ONLY!
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of (God) the (Holy) Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ (God the Son) and be sprinkled with His blood:
May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Jesus' commission for the disciples was for unbelievers, the unsaved. Notice Jesus said 'to all nations'.

Here is Mark's account of the commission -

Mark 16
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


Notice 'he who believes'. Jesus is not talking about believers, but unbelievers. Then notice 'they will be saved'. It doesn't say 'they who are believers'. It's either believe and be saved, or not believe and be condemned.

And yes, many unbelievers have obeyed Jesus and believe to be saved.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Can anyone cite a clear and in context passage that states or even implies that:
"OBEY/OBEDIENCE is a necessary pre-requisite to salvation"

Jesus the Christ's "words" would be best

Man cannot keep all the commandments/precepts/Mosaic (or other) "Laws".

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole LAW and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:11
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
 
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EmSw

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Can anyone cite a clear and in context passage that states or even implies that:
"OBEY/OBEDIENCE is a necessary pre-requisite to salvation"

Jesus the Christ's "words" would be best

Man cannot keep all the commandments/precepts/Mosaic (or other) "Laws".

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole LAW and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:11
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

Funny how you desire Jesus' own words, and then proceed to give us words from others.

Do you think you know Him if you don't keep the commandments? John says you don't. John even says you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

Those with an evil heart cannot and will not keep His commandments. So, are you speaking of those with evil heats, or those with new hearts and new spirits?

Jesus said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. If you do not keep the commandments, then we have to question whether you really want to enter life.

By the way, many, many were justified by the law.
 
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TheSeabass

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Should obedience be mentioned when preaching the gospel?

Obedience to the gospel is required, for salvation is not possible without obedience to the gospel.





1 Peter 4:17

1 Peter 1:22

2 Thessalonians 1:8

Romans 10:16

Galatians 5:7

Romans 2:8

Romans 6:17





1 Peter 2:7 (KJV) and John 3:36 (ASV) note in these two verses how "believe" is contrasted to "obeyeth not-disobedience". Therefore believing is obedience, obedience to the gospel and believing includes being water baptized:



Points to note:



---1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul preached the gospel. What is the gospel Paul preached? "...that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" Therefore the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.



So how does one obey the gospel, that is, how does one obey the historical events of Christ's death, burial and resurrection?



---In Romans 6:17-18, Paul said of those Jewish converts in Rome that they had "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Note it says "FORM of doctrine", when I had a concrete driveway poured, wood forms were set up. Those forms were not the literal driveway itself but simply created the shape or form of the driveway. Therefore when one obeys the gospel he does not literally die on a cross, literally buried and literally rises from physical death, but instead one goes through a FORM of that death, burial and resurrection when one obeys the command to be water baptized, Romans 6:3-7....the old man of sin dies (crucified with Christ) and one is buried with Christ in a watery grave of baptism into death then raised up from that watery grave to walk in newness of life.


 
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