Should I Return?

fhansen

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My LCMS believes in a literal six 24 hour day creation.
Alright. I believe that varies with them but it's certainly an optional position and yet, in my mind, not a particularly likely one. The main goal in interpreting Scripture is to know what the author intended to the extent possible. Sometimes a strict literal interpretation is obvious and called for while other times it's not at all. And where controverises are difficult to settle going by Scripture alone, the input of the church's historical legacy can also come into play.
 
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FaithT

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Alright. I believe that varies with them but it's certainly an optional position and yet, in my mind, not a particularly likely one. The main goal in interpreting Scripture is to know what the author intended to the extent possible. Sometimes a strict literal interpretation is obvious and called for while other times it's not at all. And where controverises are difficult to settle going by Scripture alone, the input of the church's historical legacy can also come into play.

Convention confesses: ‘God created the world in six natural days’

And this has always been a sticking point with me, and the LCMS. They don’t kick you out if you disagree, but I was told that I could never teach anything there, though that was a non issue because I don’t want to.
 
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FaithT

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Did you used to go by thatgirloncf?
No but I think I know who you’re talking about. I used to be Faith1960 on CAF then I think I changed my name to Hope1960 when that board was still up and running.
 
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fhansen

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FaithT

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That's interesting-didn't know they taught that.
Yeah, and I’ve also asked a few people there if they believe in an old earth or if they believe in a young earth which is the position of the LCMS (about 6000 years) old and all have told me a young earth.
 
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Michie

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Yeah, and I’ve also asked a few people there if they believe in an old earth or if they believe in a young earth which is the position of the LCMS (about 6000 years) old and all have told me a young earth.
As a Catholic you are free to believe as you wish. We all agree that God is the Creator.
 
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fhansen

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Can you elaborate on some of the errors of Luther’s beliefs?
I'll focus on a central one, Sola Fide. Protestants often make the claim that Catholics think they must earn their way into heaven, taking some of the credit for our salvation away from Christ and placing it on ourselves. There’s a germ of truth in this in that we believe we must participate in working out our salvation, cooperating with grace, at God's discretion and according to His wisdom.. The Protestant position is that our only obligation is to believe. The difference is sometimes referred to as synergism vs monergism but even most Protestants, regardless of theology, generally simply know that what they do, how they comport themselves throughout their lives, and not only what they believe, matters as to their eternal destinies. But theologically some believe that faith can be distinguished between a “saving/true faith” and a "dead faith", and that a true faith will automatically lead to a righteous life but that such righteousness will nonetheless still not save them; only Christ’s sacrifice and His righteousness does that. As long as we trust in Him and His work, trust that we’re forgiven because of it, they say that we’re saved, as His righteousness is now imputed to us.

This leads to a bit of confusion already though, because it places a disconnect or point of confusion between whether or not we can and need to possess any personal righteousness, whether or not sin can still possibly separate us from God. Is man still obligated to be righteous under the New Covenant or not? Scripture says yes. Luther said that we’re “simul justus et peccator”: righteous and sinner all at the same time. We’re simply declared to be righteous by God, rather than being made righteous. This “declared righteousness” concept also calls into question whether or not one can lose their salvation; if righteousness is said to be declared or imputed only then what’s to lose? In Catholicism we can compromise and lose our state of justice by living and acting unjustly.

So, to sum it up, Lutheranism teaches that we’re justified by the sheer act of faith/trust whereupon God forgives sin and declares us just, while in Catholicism faith is the vehicle to real justice/righteousness given to us as it’s the vehicle to God, to union with the only One who can accomplish the righteousness in us, by grace, that we cannot accomplish on our own, under the law. We’re saved by faith, through and on the basis of faith, “not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil 3:9).

It’s all a matter of who we fellowship- or commune- with; God, alone, can justify man. Adam had thought he was perfectly fine-or better yet- without Him. But, “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). All this is consistent with the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31:33-34:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


Anyway, the Catholic Church teaches that it’s all grace, all a gift which He gives and initiates, whether faith or works or any other response we need to make. We cannot possibly turn ourselves to and follow God; He must reach down and touch and move us first. But we can still always refuse to come, to open the door, or to keep it open throughout our lives. We must accept, embrace and express the gifts given-and to the extent that we do so we grow in them: our justice/holiness is increased. Once freely justified we’re now empowered, by the Spirit, by grace, by love, to begin to love as He does with all that is entailed in that. We can also turn and walk away from it, from Him, at any point in time, returning to the flesh. At any rate the Church teaches, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

That’s the real thing. Faith is not a replacement for righteousness or the equivalent of it, nor is it a get out of hell free card but rather it's finally the means to authentic righteousness by becoming children of God, like Him, loving as He does, which makes us truly worthy of heaven. It’s a two-way effort: God wants our participation, and increasingly so, for our own highest good. He loves man lavishly. Faith puts us on a journey, with and to God. We must remain on board-not with sinless perfection in this life, but certainly oriented with Him towards righteousness, growing more towards the purpose and perfection He designed us for than towards sin and the flesh, away from Him.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

Sorry if I elaborated a bit too much there :).
 
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WarriorAngel

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“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

:crossrc:
 
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I was at Confession this past Sunday morning before I went to Mass, which is where I went rather than going to the Lutheran church.

I’d feel kind of badly though because the Lutheran Pastor has been so helpful to me. We’ve had very long discussions on person and in email about Christianity and the Lutheran church as well. I’d feel like leaving would make him feel like our conversations were all for nothing.

Are you obligated to a person or to God?
You cannot serve two masters.
Authentic Christianity is not a religion where you get everyone to like you. When you follow the truth, Our Lord said they will hate you, revile you and utter every kind of slander against you. If that makes you feel bad, do you really love Jesus, the way, the truth and the life?
The Catholic Church tells us we are obligated to keep the moral law, mortify our flesh and follow Jesus. Luther said it’s only faith and no works, so if you talk about works you are being legalistic. I have even heard some Lutherans tell people to sin boldly and God is going to take you to heaven kicking and screaming just because you believe in Jesus. That is such a lie and you put your immortal soul in danger if
you believe it. Why?
Well the Catholic teaching and the authentic teaching is that Christ died on the cross for all the sins of mankind without exception, but souls still wind up in hell. Jesus said not everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Do you think those souls barred from heaven did not believe in Jesus? They believed but did not love Him
Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. We are obligated to repent of all sin and live righteously period. Lutherans will tell you not to worry about it, you believe and Jesus already paid the price for your sins, you believe in Him, so He will understand if you can’t repent. That is a lie.
Jesus knows we are weak, but He said that whatever you ask of Him, He will do. If we are in habitual sin, we ask for the grace of repentance and He will grant it. If we don’t ask, He will not do, and if we appear before the throne of grace unrepentant, He will say I do not know you, depart from Me.
Jesus died for all men, but all are not going to be saved. He gave us freewill to love Him or
love ourselves and our life. What does the Bible say about the saints? They loved not their lives unto death and they were given a crown of life.
There is no freedom of conscience on the path of life, we don’t get to pick and choose which teachings we like or which sins to keep and still claim to follow Jesus. He says I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. This is not a game. There is no question that He loves us. The question is do we love Him?
He gives us free will and He only grants heaven to those that love Him. The magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church is the only one that will teach you that.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Are you obligated to a person or to God?
You cannot serve two masters.
Authentic Christianity is not a religion where you get everyone to like you. When you follow the truth, Our Lord said they will hate you, revile you and utter every kind of slander against you. If that makes you feel bad, do you really love Jesus, the way, the truth and the life?
The Catholic Church tells us we are obligated to keep the moral law, mortify our flesh and follow Jesus. Luther said it’s only faith and no works, so if you talk about works you are being legalistic. I have even heard some Lutherans tell people to sin boldly and God is going to take you to heaven kicking and screaming just because you believe in Jesus. That is such a lie and you put your immortal soul in danger if
you believe it. Why?
Well the Catholic teaching and the authentic teaching is that Christ died on the cross for all the sins of mankind without exception, but souls still wind up in hell. Jesus said not everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Do you think those souls barred from heaven did not believe in Jesus? They believed but did not love Him
Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. We are obligated to repent of all sin and live righteously period. Lutherans will tell you not to worry about it, you believe and Jesus already paid the price for your sins, you believe in Him, so He will understand if you can’t repent. That is a lie.
Jesus knows we are weak, but He said that whatever you ask of Him, He will do. If we are in habitual sin, we ask for the grace of repentance and He will grant it. If we don’t ask, He will not do, and if we appear before the throne of grace unrepentant, He will say I do not know you, depart from Me.
Jesus died for all men, but all are not going to be saved. He gave us freewill to love Him or
love ourselves and our life. What does the Bible say about the saints? They loved not their lives unto death and they were given a crown of life.
There is no freedom of conscience on the path of life, we don’t get to pick and choose which teachings we like or which sins to keep and still claim to follow Jesus. He says I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. This is not a game. There is no question that He loves us. The question is do we love Him?
He gives us free will and He only grants heaven to those that love Him. The magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church is the only one that will teach you that.
Fortunately He has mercy with purgatory. :crossrc:
 
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FaithT

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Are you obligated to a person or to God?
You cannot serve two masters.
Authentic Christianity is not a religion where you get everyone to like you. When you follow the truth, Our Lord said they will hate you, revile you and utter every kind of slander against you. If that makes you feel bad, do you really love Jesus, the way, the truth and the life?
The Catholic Church tells us we are obligated to keep the moral law, mortify our flesh and follow Jesus. Luther said it’s only faith and no works, so if you talk about works you are being legalistic. I have even heard some Lutherans tell people to sin boldly and God is going to take you to heaven kicking and screaming just because you believe in Jesus. That is such a lie and you put your immortal soul in danger if
you believe it. Why?
Well the Catholic teaching and the authentic teaching is that Christ died on the cross for all the sins of mankind without exception, but souls still wind up in hell. Jesus said not everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Do you think those souls barred from heaven did not believe in Jesus? They believed but did not love Him
Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. We are obligated to repent of all sin and live righteously period. Lutherans will tell you not to worry about it, you believe and Jesus already paid the price for your sins, you believe in Him, so He will understand if you can’t repent. That is a lie.
Jesus knows we are weak, but He said that whatever you ask of Him, He will do. If we are in habitual sin, we ask for the grace of repentance and He will grant it. If we don’t ask, He will not do, and if we appear before the throne of grace unrepentant, He will say I do not know you, depart from Me.
Jesus died for all men, but all are not going to be saved. He gave us freewill to love Him or
love ourselves and our life. What does the Bible say about the saints? They loved not their lives unto death and they were given a crown of life.
There is no freedom of conscience on the path of life, we don’t get to pick and choose which teachings we like or which sins to keep and still claim to follow Jesus. He says I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. This is not a game. There is no question that He loves us. The question is do we love Him?
He gives us free will and He only grants heaven to those that love Him. The magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church is the only one that will teach you that.
I’m being counseled by someone who takes the opposite view. He urges me to remain in the Lutheran church,saying that they stick to what’s written in the Bible, where the RCC adds things that aren’t Biblical. Tradition etc.
 
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fhansen

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I’m being counseled by someone who takes the opposite view. He urges me to remain in the Lutheran church,saying that they stick to what’s written in the Bible, where the RCC adds things that aren’t Biblical. Tradition etc.
Again, if I may. All Protestants believe that they're going by the bible. Catholics do as well. Tradition is not really anything more than the Church's lived experience, starting at the beginning of the faith. So, going by Scripture alone Protestants argue plausibly enough with each other over baptismsal regeneration, whereas for the church, in the east and in the west this was never even a question: baptism, the "sacrament of faith" was always seen and practiced as the means by which we enter God's kingdom.

By Scripture alone we're bound to get some things right, and almost ensured to get some wrong because the reader becomes his own private interpreter and the bible is often unclear or seemingly ambigous or even contradictory on some matters. And even Scripture tells us that not everything Jesus said and did were recorded -John 21:25, and to hold fast to those tradtions or unwritten teachings that were handed down-2 Thess 2:15. The bible was never intended to serve as some sort of clear and exhaustive catechism and the church was preaching the gospel before a word of the New Testament was written. Inevitably the doctrine of Sola Scriptura proves itself to be unworkable.
 
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TKA_TN

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Hope, I’m kind of where you are.

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted here, but I’ve gone from growing up Presbyterian, trying non-denom for a bit, then LCMS, and now back to Presbyterian (LCMS church is too small here and I have young kids and hardly any kids at the church).

I went to a Catholic high school and have really felt that draw since I was 18. My wife is adamantly opposed to the RCC, but I’m to the point where the call from God is almost too strong to resist and I may just convert without her. I’ll do Mass on Saturday evenings and then maybe still go to the Presbyterian church on Sunday mornings and just not take communion. I know dreams aren’t supposed to be taken literally, but the last 2 dreams I’ve had about my deceased father have been with him in a Catholic Church (he was not Catholic).

All that to say, if you read the early fathers, I really don’t see how anyone can be anything other than Catholic or EO. The writings, even up to St. Thomas Aquinas, are consistent with the early church and walking into modern-day Protestantism just isn’t what I’d imagine the early church would be.
 
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I’m being counseled by someone who takes the opposite view. He urges me to remain in the Lutheran church,saying that they stick to what’s written in the Bible, where the RCC adds things that aren’t Biblical. Tradition etc.


If they stick to the Bible, then how do they justify rebellion against Christ's Church founded on Peter?
Their error of faith alone is so strong that they make good works superfluous instead of necessary. They say that they teach the Bible, but the Bible says salvation is of works and not faith alone in James 2, but then they go on convoluted reasoning to say the Bible does not mean that. It says in 1Cor13 that faith alone is useless, you must have faith, hope, and charity, but the greatest of these is charity. Then comes the reasoning of denial where they say that's not true, it is by faith alone.
Its a perfect example of 2 Tim 3:5
[5] Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.

the Lutheran gospel sounds biblical and godly, but there is no power, as they say works are not necessary, but faith alone. It sounds good, but is very deceptive.

Jesus says strive to enter by the narrow gate. Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life, few there be that find it. No where does He EVER say, hey guys just believe in Me and I am going to pay for all your sins, no need to work or repent. He says the opposite, when He tells us that not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of My Father in heaven.

Ephesians 2:8 tells us we are saved by GRACE, through faith, not by faith. That means faith is a gift, not a work. When someone is saved by grace they receive the gifts of the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and charity. Faith to believe that God is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him, Hope to believe that God is faithful and will complete His work in you. Though your sins be a scarlet, they will be white as snow; not just covered but cleansed, as Christ said to the adulteress, neither do I condemn you, go away and don't sin anymore. He did not say I know you can't help sinning so just believe in Me and I will look the other way. He commands repentance and gives you the power to obey if you ask for it. Charity is the third and greatest theological virtue, because when we receive it, we are filled with the Love of God and we seek to obey Him and please Him, as the first commandment is to love God with your whole heart whole mind and whole soul, then love your neighbor as yourself. We get glimpses of this when we fall in love. Does a person in love take the other for granted and keep seeing other people? Not if they really love them. Jesus says if you love Me, keep my commandments.
Protestants will tell you that we lack the ability to obey God; while that may be true, but He has promised us the grace to obey, if we ask. Pray, seek, knock. God has blessed the Church with the sacraments. The Grace of god flows through the sacraments. Baptism cleanses us from original sin, confession can cleanse us from mortal sin, the Eucharist, if received with proper disposition, cleanses us from venial sin and decreases our desire for sin. Confirmation gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Anointing of the sick can heal our bodies and souls to prepare us for heaven. Matrimony, if received with proper disposition seals two people in holy love. Holy Orders ordains priests to administer the sacraments through apostolic succession leading back to Peter and the Apostles when Christ breathed on them and said receive the Holy Ghost and gave them the power to forgive sins.
People love to mock the sacraments, but they were given to the Church by God as channels of His grace. The Catholic Church has all seven. Why would you go anywhere else?
 
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Hope, I’m kind of where you are.

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted here, but I’ve gone from growing up Presbyterian, trying non-denom for a bit, then LCMS, and now back to Presbyterian (LCMS church is too small here and I have young kids and hardly any kids at the church).

I went to a Catholic high school and have really felt that draw since I was 18. My wife is adamantly opposed to the RCC, but I’m to the point where the call from God is almost too strong to resist and I may just convert without her. I’ll do Mass on Saturday evenings and then maybe still go to the Presbyterian church on Sunday mornings and just not take communion. I know dreams aren’t supposed to be taken literally, but the last 2 dreams I’ve had about my deceased father have been with him in a Catholic Church (he was not Catholic).

All that to say, if you read the early fathers, I really don’t see how anyone can be anything other than Catholic or EO. The writings, even up to St. Thomas Aquinas, are consistent with the early church and walking into modern-day Protestantism just isn’t what I’d imagine the early church would be.
Our souls receive [and your dad is in spirit now] messages from Heaven and indeed come via dreams.

The Bible even showcases the importance of dreams.

FWIW - your dad may desire both you to go there to walk the narrow path and to pray for him via the Masses.

Hope - you can do as you please, because it's in the Lord's hands Who is pulling you back.
You're looking for 'human reasoning vs wisdom' of the Holy Spirit.

I wish you well.
 
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FaithT

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Our souls receive [and your dad is in spirit now] messages from Heaven and indeed come via dreams.

The Bible even showcases the importance of dreams.

FWIW - your dad may desire both you to go there to walk the narrow path and to pray for him via the Masses.

Hope - you can do as you please, because it's in the Lord's hands Who is pulling you back.
You're looking for 'human reasoning vs wisdom' of the Holy Spirit.

I wish you well.
Thanks!
 
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What about Mary and the Saints? isnt it unbiblical to pray for their intercession?
No. See Rev. 5:8.

Also, we do not support sola scriptura. There was no canon of scripture for the first 400 years of Church history.

the oldest prayer to Mary goes back to the 1st century
 
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