Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[Strathos]

There are people that choose to believe that the earth is flat despite all of the proof otherwise - so I don't buy the whole 'belief isn't a choice' thing either.

 

[jayem]

If we ignore the benefits to social cohesion and stability that it provided.

For 1000 years, from the 6th century up to the 16th, the Roman Catholic Church was Christianity. The only game in town. It's true that some literature, philosophy, and early science was kept alive in monasteries and universities, but little of it filtered down to the common man. The Church happily supported the divine right of kings. As long as the temporal authorities showed proper deference to their spiritual superior, the Pope. And medieval Christianity had little problem with feudalism. Which virtually guaranteed lifelong peasantry for anyone not born into the land-owning nobility. We can't forget that for 2 centuries, Christian Europe was occupied with the Crusades. Ostensibly to reclaim the Holy Land and rescue resident Christians from Muslim savagery. Though the Crusaders could be pretty savage themselves. And committed plenty of atrocities against non-combatants--especially Jews living in Europe. I'll also mention the various Inquisitions. And the corruption of the late medieval and Renaissance popes and bishops, spending vast amounts of questionably-raised money on lavish palaces, cathedrals, and the Vatican. Which ultimately led to Luther and the Reformation. And shattered any religious stability and cohesion in Europe.

 

[Holoman]

Don't want to beat a dead horse but no, they should believe it because it's true, not because of the perks. In fact there can be many disadvantages to being a Christian.

 

[Erik Nelson]

"Should a christian believe in the tooth fairy if it improves his well-being?"

That's how your question sounds to an atheist.

The tooth fairy has never worked wonders on Earth, causing earthquakes. And evoking Storms, diverting rivers. And. Inducing volcanic eruptions.

And nobody claims to receive meaningful intelligible messages transmitted to them. From the tooth fairy.

 

[Matthew13:9]

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Par5]

The tooth fairy has never worked wonders on Earth, causing earthquakes. And evoking Storms, diverting rivers. And. Inducing volcanic eruptions.

And nobody claims to receive meaningful intelligible messages transmitted to them. From the tooth fairy.

No one causes earthquakes, storms or volcanic eruptions. They are all acts of nature that can be explained scientifically. I don't think that anyone has suggested the tooth fairy is responsible for such things, nor do I think that anyone claims to receive messages from same. Crediting such things to an imaginary being would be rather ridiculous don't you think?

 

[Nithavela]

And nobody claims to receive meaningful intelligible messages transmitted to them. From the tooth fairy.

I do.

 

[Erik Nelson]

No one causes earthquakes, storms or volcanic eruptions. They are all acts of nature that can be explained scientifically. I don't think that anyone has suggested the tooth fairy is responsible for such things, nor do I think that anyone claims to receive messages from same. Crediting such things to an imaginary being would be rather ridiculous don't you think?

You are assuming a lot. After you ignore a lot. You are ignoring reports of supernatural phenomenon on Earth. Worldwide. As far back into the dim and distant mists of human history as anyone remembers.

What you're saying sounds a lot like Joseph Stalin? on the eve of Operation Barbarossa. For months and months and months. many many many many many Russians or did she know the Kremlin that the Germans were amassing forces on the border. Obviously preparing 2 invade.

They told Stalin what they had witnessed with their own eyes from Poland, Czechoslovakia, from Germany. From Romania from Bulgaria. From here, there and everywhere in between. Over and over and over and over and over again.

Every single time Stalin refused to believe them. He rejected their reports. Even if and who knows? They were captured by the Gestapo and executed and lost their lives for the reports that they returned to Russia. Even still Stalin refused rejected denied denounced doubted. threw out there words. As flights of fancy.

Likewise, dozens if not hundreds or thousands. Of profits. Have spoken on behalf of God in heaven. Thousands and tens of thousands of millions have observed miracles and other supernatural phenomenon on Earth. And wrote many of them down in the Bible and distributed the same for free. No one has any excuse to claim they quote "didn't hear the reports coming in from the field."

I guess you don't believe the report's. Because you wouldn't believe anybody other than yourself. If you were in the army and you received reports from up and down the line that other people elsewhere. We're taking fire from an enemy bombardment. But if your stretch of trench. Was clean and clear and quiet? You would reject those reports saying. All's clear right here. I've got no action. I've got nothing going on so all the rest of you are full of it.

I guess if God have it doesn't make you the next Moses And. doesn't evoke storms before your eyes and volcanic eruptions before your face. Then you won't believe that anything like that ever happened. Because if it ever did it would have happened right in front of you. Just like Germans would have appeared right in front of Stalin inside the Kremlin. To prove that they were on massing. On the borders of Russia.

revelation 20:9

If and when fire descends from heaven. And brings about the end of Earth as we know it. Then I guess on that day. You or your children will be very surprised. Surprised to find out. The earth would end that way. And you will have no idea why.

But humanity has been warned here and there, and everywhere in between for centuries and millennia.

You say you don't believe and don't trust the reports. Of Saint Peter and Saint Paul and the Apostles. Some of the most honest. And selfless. And self sacrificing. Humans in history. So then who do you say we should trust? You? So called scientists who write books. For money? Getting paid money because they tell people honeyed words that they want to hear. Whilst they work from the safety of their own offices.

Saints Peter and Paul wrote the Bible. For free. Risking their own lives in the field to help others. Even when it wasn't popular. Who is more trustworthy?

revelation 20:9

if you ever do witness. The final judgment as fire descends to earth from heaven. Please do me a favor. And once it registers. And sinks in Just Acknowledge, it like that guy told you on Christian forums. God in heaven really has finally arrived at earth

Of course at this moment. D day. And. H. hour have yet to occur.

You acknowledge that LOGICALLY. That doesn't mean they won't work or can't occur correct?

For the record, I'm not claiming i know. What? IS happening in heaven and how it will or will not eventually impact earth? But I do think you could have a much more open mind, and be much more fair and balanced. In your assessment of who is trustworthy. Who is a legitimate source of credible authority?

You appear to be claiming that you know what is NOT happening. In Heaven and what is NOT happening on earth you claim you know? Full in the face of thousands of reports for thousands of years. Of Miracles manifested on Earth and attributed to God in heaven.

You're claiming you know the coast is clear. So to speak. When you cannot possibly know that for sure. And you have many, many, many reports to the contrary.

 

[Nithavela]

You are assuming a lot. After you ignore a lot. You are ignoring reports of supernatural phenomenon on Earth. Worldwide. As far back into the dim and distant mists of human history as anyone remembers.

What you're saying sounds a lot like Joseph Stalin? on the eve of Operation Barbarossa. For months and months and months. many many many many many Russians or did she know the Kremlin that the Germans were amassing forces on the border. Obviously preparing 2 invade.

They told Stalin what they had witnessed with their own eyes from Poland, Czechoslovakia, from Germany. From Romania from Bulgaria. From here, there and everywhere in between. Over and over and over and over and over again.

Every single time Stalin refused to believe them. He rejected their reports. Even if and who knows? They were captured by the Gestapo and executed and lost their lives for the reports that they returned to Russia. Even still Stalin refused rejected denied denounced doubted. threw out there words. As flights of fancy.

Likewise, dozens if not hundreds or thousands. Of profits. Have spoken on behalf of God in heaven. Thousands and tens of thousands of millions have observed miracles and other supernatural phenomenon on Earth. And wrote many of them down in the Bible and distributed the same for free. No one has any excuse to claim they quote "didn't hear the reports coming in from the field."

I guess you don't believe the report's. Because you wouldn't believe anybody other than yourself. If you were in the army and you received reports from up and down the line that other people elsewhere. We're taking fire from an enemy bombardment. But if your stretch of trench. Was clean and clear and quiet? You would reject those reports saying. All's clear right here. I've got no action. I've got nothing going on so all the rest of you are full of it.

I guess if God have it doesn't make you the next Moses And. doesn't evoke storms before your eyes and volcanic eruptions before your face. Then you won't believe that anything like that ever happened. Because if it ever did it would have happened right in front of you. Just like Germans would have appeared right in front of Stalin inside the Kremlin. To prove that they were on massing. On the borders of Russia.

revelation 20:9

If and when fire descends from heaven. And brings about the end of Earth as we know it. Then I guess on that day. You or your children will be very surprised. Surprised to find out. The earth would end that way. And you will have no idea why.

But humanity has been warned here and there, and everywhere in between for centuries and millennia.

You say you don't believe and don't trust the reports. Of Saint Peter and Saint Paul and the Apostles. Some of the most honest. And selfless. And self sacrificing. Humans in history. So then who do you say we should trust? You? So called scientists who write books. For money? Getting paid money because they tell people honeyed words that they want to hear. Whilst they work from the safety of their own offices.

Saints Peter and Paul wrote the Bible. For free. Risking their own lives in the field to help others. Even when it wasn't popular. Who is more trustworthy?

revelation 20:9

if you ever do witness. The final judgment as fire descends to earth from heaven. Please do me a favor. And once it registers. And sinks in Just Acknowledge, it like that guy told you on Christian forums. God in heaven really has finally arrived at earth

Of course at this moment. D day. And. H. hour have yet to occur.

You acknowledge that LOGICALLY. That doesn't mean they won't work or can't occur correct?

For the record, I'm not claiming i know. What? IS happening in heaven and how it will or will not eventually impact earth? But I do think you could have a much more open mind, and be much more fair and balanced. In your assessment of who is trustworthy. Who is a legitimate source of credible authority?

You appear to be claiming that you know what is NOT happening. In Heaven and what is NOT happening on earth you claim you know? Full in the face of thousands of reports for thousands of years. Of Miracles manifested on Earth and attributed to God in heaven.

You're claiming you know the coast is clear. So to speak. When you cannot possibly know that for sure. And you have many, many, many reports to the contrary.

Is that supposed to convince anyone?

 

[Desk trauma]

Is that supposed to convince anyone?

Just the author.

 

[Par5]

You are assuming a lot. After you ignore a lot. You are ignoring reports of supernatural phenomenon on Earth. Worldwide. As far back into the dim and distant mists of human history as anyone remembers.

What you're saying sounds a lot like Joseph Stalin? on the eve of Operation Barbarossa. For months and months and months. many many many many many Russians or did she know the Kremlin that the Germans were amassing forces on the border. Obviously preparing 2 invade.

They told Stalin what they had witnessed with their own eyes from Poland, Czechoslovakia, from Germany. From Romania from Bulgaria. From here, there and everywhere in between. Over and over and over and over and over again.

Every single time Stalin refused to believe them. He rejected their reports. Even if and who knows? They were captured by the Gestapo and executed and lost their lives for the reports that they returned to Russia. Even still Stalin refused rejected denied denounced doubted. threw out there words. As flights of fancy.

Likewise, dozens if not hundreds or thousands. Of profits. Have spoken on behalf of God in heaven. Thousands and tens of thousands of millions have observed miracles and other supernatural phenomenon on Earth. And wrote many of them down in the Bible and distributed the same for free. No one has any excuse to claim they quote "didn't hear the reports coming in from the field."

I guess you don't believe the report's. Because you wouldn't believe anybody other than yourself. If you were in the army and you received reports from up and down the line that other people elsewhere. We're taking fire from an enemy bombardment. But if your stretch of trench. Was clean and clear and quiet? You would reject those reports saying. All's clear right here. I've got no action. I've got nothing going on so all the rest of you are full of it.

I guess if God have it doesn't make you the next Moses And. doesn't evoke storms before your eyes and volcanic eruptions before your face. Then you won't believe that anything like that ever happened. Because if it ever did it would have happened right in front of you. Just like Germans would have appeared right in front of Stalin inside the Kremlin. To prove that they were on massing. On the borders of Russia.

revelation 20:9

If and when fire descends from heaven. And brings about the end of Earth as we know it. Then I guess on that day. You or your children will be very surprised. Surprised to find out. The earth would end that way. And you will have no idea why.

But humanity has been warned here and there, and everywhere in between for centuries and millennia.

You say you don't believe and don't trust the reports. Of Saint Peter and Saint Paul and the Apostles. Some of the most honest. And selfless. And self sacrificing. Humans in history. So then who do you say we should trust? You? So called scientists who write books. For money? Getting paid money because they tell people honeyed words that they want to hear. Whilst they work from the safety of their own offices.

Saints Peter and Paul wrote the Bible. For free. Risking their own lives in the field to help others. Even when it wasn't popular. Who is more trustworthy?

revelation 20:9

if you ever do witness. The final judgment as fire descends to earth from heaven. Please do me a favor. And once it registers. And sinks in Just Acknowledge, it like that guy told you on Christian forums. God in heaven really has finally arrived at earth

Of course at this moment. D day. And. H. hour have yet to occur.

You acknowledge that LOGICALLY. That doesn't mean they won't work or can't occur correct?

For the record, I'm not claiming i know. What? IS happening in heaven and how it will or will not eventually impact earth? But I do think you could have a much more open mind, and be much more fair and balanced. In your assessment of who is trustworthy. Who is a legitimate source of credible authority?

You appear to be claiming that you know what is NOT happening. In Heaven and what is NOT happening on earth you claim you know? Full in the face of thousands of reports for thousands of years. Of Miracles manifested on Earth and attributed to God in heaven.

You're claiming you know the coast is clear. So to speak. When you cannot possibly know that for sure. And you have many, many, many reports to the contrary.

Oh dear, being likened to Stalin is a first for me. What on earth does Stalin have to do with the tooth fairy?
You have some very strange ideas. You criticise me for trusting the explanations given by scientists regarding things that occur in nature. Explanations that are arrived at by research and testing and then presented for scrutiny by the scientific community. You criticise me for accepting explanations that have been tried and tested, yet you believe stuff from a book that you can't even be sure who the authors are and that the only thing you can say about these supernatural events is that someone said they happened. No proof, nothing, just someone's word.
The events you described and them being accredited to some deity was primitive man's way of trying to give a reason to things he did not understand.
We have explanations as to why these things occur. We are much more enlightened than bronze-age man. At least, some of us are!

 

[grasping the after wind]

How does one go about believing in something they are certain does not exist?

Most atheist do not claim they are sure that God does not exist. They simply say they do not believe that a god exists not that the are sure that a god does not exist. Makes it easier to not have to defend the position you are taking here, as the position that one does not believe that a god exists puts all the onus on the theist to prove the existence of God and avoids having to prove the non existence of a god. Perhaps you a have not gotten the memo on that?

 

[Nithavela]

Oh dear, being likened to Stalin is a first for me.

Welcome to Christian Forums.

 

[Nithavela]

Most atheist do not claim they are sure that God does not exist. They simply say they do not believe that a god exists not that the are sure that a god does not exist. Makes it easier to not have to defend the position you are taking here, as the position that one does not believe that a god exists puts all the onus on the theist to prove the existence of God and avoids having to prove the non existence of a god. Perhaps you a have not gotten the memo on that?

It is logically impossible to prove the non-existence of anything.

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia

 

[grasping the after wind]

It is logically impossible to prove the non-existence of anything.

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia

Would the statement "I am sure that god does not exist" then be illogical? As it is logically impossible to prove the non existence of anything, one would have to assume that it was illogical to be sure that something did not exist.

 

[Nithavela]

Would the statement "I am sure that god does not exist" then be illogical?

Not exactly. Being sure doesn't imply that someone believes that something is 100% true, but that someone believes something with a high enough certainty to base their thoughts and actions on the assumption that this something is true.

It's like me saying "I'm sure my dog would never attack me". I know him for years, he has never hurt anyone or shown any aggressive behaviour towards humans, but there still is a non-zero possibility that he might decide to go for my jugular. But I still base my actions on the assumption that he wouldn't attack me.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Not exactly. Being sure doesn't imply that someone believes that something is 100% true, but that someone believes something with a high enough certainty to base their thoughts and actions on the assumption that this something is true.

It's like me saying "I'm sure my dog would never attack me". I know him for years, he has never hurt anyone or shown any aggressive behaviour towards humans, but there still is a non-zero possibility that he might decide to go for my jugular. But I still base my actions on the assumption that he wouldn't attack me.

What percent true does being sure mean? And what word would you expect someone to use to indicate they believed that something is 100% true if you are going to take sure off the table for that? I would have thought that I was sure that I would burn my hand if I stuck it in a fire but I guess I was more than just sure about that and I ought to know what word would be more apt to express my self about that possible situation.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It is logically impossible to prove the non-existence of anything.

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia

Modus Tollens. If Y necessarily follows from the existence of X and yet there is no Y, then there is no X.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Modus Tollens. If Y necessarily follows from the existence of X and yet there is no Y, then there is no X.

How does one prove the non existence of Y in the above?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Modus Tollens. If Y necessarily follows from the existence of X and yet there is no Y, then there is no X.

Seems to me that you're dealing above with absence rather than non existence. For instance, My arm , if it has not been amputated, cannot be anywhere that I am not nor can I be somewhere that my arm is not. Therefore if my arm is not in my house I am not in my house. The absence of me in my house is not proof of my non existence.