Short post: The blissful ignorance of Amillennialism's lack of End-Times-Tables

[eclipsenow]

A recent comment led me to pondering:-

• Eschatology isn't about what happens before the end - it's about what has already happened in the past to secure our future
• Revelation is not a secret code-book to understanding our generation (as if we're special) - it's about understanding the times we've lived in these last 2000 years and counting.
• Revelation is a sermon to all Christians that have ever lived, warning about both the good and bad, both the temptations of persecution and probably MORE deadly temptations of wealth and success (Revelation 13).
• It's not about a One World Government or end-times-table, but about how sudden and climactic and FINAL it will be when THE MAN COMES AROUND.
• It's not about predicting the future - but the character of our eternally secure future - and the horrible fate of those who miss out
• What's going to happen over the next 30 years? Who knows? I'm Amil - and don't pretend to know. I think climate change could really bite - but then new technology might mitigate that. So - whatever. I don't know. I'm intensely interested in this period of history as a greenie activist - but I have no idea how it will play out. And I must remember to celebrate my ignorance - and remember that I am a mere creature, not the Creator.
• There's freedom in that. Freedom from guessing at impossible timetables. But more, I am responsible to do the best I can - but I am not responsible FOR God's world. He is. He will wipe away every tear. (Lastly, count how many bullet points I've made here - and then ask yourself if I just made another symbolic point here? )

This Johnny Cash song has more theology in it than any end-times-table

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi I would not rest on the historical fulfillment of Rev as there is a mountain of very specific prophecy that has not been fulfilled and out of the mouths of two witnesses it shall be established. I have gone round and round on this topic a few times and usually no one changes their opinion. I would say that in a debate your side can put up a good fight and I understand the arguments. But in something like this it is more like a court case where both sides can present as much evidence that is applicable and on topic. In this regard the volume of specific interrelated events on a global scale shows a timeline and a clear before and after picture. If you say made a yellow letter Bible and highlighted the passages that the literalist believe to be future and true you will see a massive amount of passages. The events in Rev are global and have things like a 3rd temple coming into play while the outer court is given to the Gentiles at a time when morality is like that of the days of the flood and Lot. A global government is also formed that is opposed to Christianity and Jerusalem will be a troublesome stone to the whole world.
You see right now a plan called the Global Reset is in full motion to bring in a one world government. This plan is not brought in smoothly but will need the collapse of the old system to precede it. The inflation you are seeing now has no remedy and Rev 6 shows globally a days wage is reduced to a quart of wheat and peace will be taken from the earth and men will kill one another. This is exactly what will happen when the post WW2 world order based on dollars collapses. The Phoenix is a symbolic bird that rises out of the ashes and indeed it is one of the symbols of what is coming. The prophecies of Jesus mission include these in Luke 1

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. Now the specifics of this before and after prophecy are huge and if you just extract the main idea is that Jesus will deliver Israel for their enemies and from that time on they will worship and serve the LORD without fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives in keeping promises, oaths, covenants and prophecy. In all the futurist literalist views this is exactly what happens at the end of Rev. We see every theme mentioned now on the table so you are using much more faith to hold your line of reasoning than mine because I see great evidence that it is going to happen just like it is written.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hi I would not rest on the historical fulfillment of Rev

Amillennialism doesn't say it's fulfilled.
It says Revelation is a gospel sermon to everyone since John's generation till Kingdom Come - till the final Judgement Day return of Christ.

as there is a mountain of very specific prophecy that has not been fulfilled and out of the mouths of two witnesses it shall be established.

It's not prophecy. It's not about the future. It's a sermon that refers to our hope in Jesus return at the end of the age.

John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-

• what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
• Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
• Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
• The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
• Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
• I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.

 

[Douggg]

blessed are the willfully ignorant? I don't think so.

 

[eclipsenow]

blessed are the willfully ignorant? I don't think so.

Or I could spend my whole life drawing up one of these only to watch my precious plans fail and burn as the calendar marches past them, oblivious....

 

[Douggg]

Or I could spend my whole life drawing up one of these only to watch my precious plans fail and burn as the calendar marches past them, oblivious....

View attachment 307976

 

[eclipsenow]

View attachment 307977

If all that represents as much of the book of Revelation as I think it does, you've just made it all utterly impossible for John's generation to even understand, let alone obey. Yet in Chapter 1 he wants HIS GENERATION to hear it and obey it.

"blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it"

How could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?

EG: "In AD4000 the Zorg will Zazzle the Marines in Valles Marineris, but as long as the Marines not touch the Zazzle - they will be safe."
Now obey this!

 

[Douggg]

If all that represents as much of the book of Revelation as I think it does, you've just made it all utterly impossible for John's generation to even understand, let alone obey. Yet in Chapter 1 he wants HIS GENERATION to hear it and obey it.

Jesus's message to the seven churches is how Christians should live, no matter what generation, until He comes.

 

[eclipsenow]

Ah, can you please show me where John tells his generation not to worry about the chapters that follow the letter to the 7 churches?

 

[Douggg]

h, can you please show me where John tells his generation not to worry about the chapters that follow the letter to the 7 churches?

The reason you are worried is because you don't think the rapture/resurrection takes place before the great tribulation begins.

 

[eclipsenow]

The reason you are worried is because you don't think the rapture/resurrection takes place before the great tribulation begins.

The reason you're worried is you love feeling like Revelation is all about us - we're so narcissistic that way. In reality, John wanted them to hear and obey it - and repeated that the time was near. The Roman persecution was already under way - John was in jail - and he already shared in their TRIBULATION.

In other words, we've BEEN in the great tribulation for 2000 years now. Sometimes life is good - and then pandemics rip - economies bust - wars break out - Boxing Day tsunamis let rip - national governments go bad - Afghanistan goes Taliban - North Korea cracks down - China cracks down - Christians are rounded up and put in jail - or killed - or starved - or forced to flee - and we're one of the most persecuted groups on the planet - yet in the rich west we sit and navel gaze our timetables and say "When is the Great Tribulation going to start?" What a bunch of self-indulgent NONSENSE!

 

[keras]

"When is the Great Tribulation going to start?" What a bunch of self-indulgent NONSENSE!

It seems that you haven't actually read Revelation 8 to 19.
The description of the Seven Trumpet and Seven Bowls: events which are possible to occur, but have not as yet, proves your noisy rattling as real NONSENSE.

 

[Douggg]

In other words, we've BEEN in the great tribulation for 2000 years now.

The great tribulation, triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation, lasts 1335 days. And if not limited to that amount of time, no flesh on earth will survive.

In Daniel 12, which the abomination of desolation is found in verses 11-12. is time of the end. And will be a time of trouble for the nation of Israel like never before, verses 1-4.

Israel became a nation again, in the land of Israel, in 1948.

Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967.

 

[eclipsenow]

It seems that you haven't actually read Revelation 8 to 19.
The description of the Seven Trumpet and Seven Bowls: events which are possible to occur, but have not as yet, proves your noisy rattling as real NONSENSE.

Ah, so it's only 2/3rd's of revelation that are utterly and totally incomprehensible and useless to John's generation. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[keras]

Ah, so it's only 2/3rd's of revelation that are utterly and totally incomprehensible and useless to John's generation. Thanks for clarifying that.

Revelation 8 to 19:10 would have been virtually incomprehensible to 1st century Christians and it seems it still is today; to those who prefer to avoid the possibility that they will be involved in such nasty events.

 

[eclipsenow]

Revelation 8 to 19:10 would have been virtually incomprehensible to 1st century Christians and it seems it still is today; to those who prefer to avoid the possibility that they will be involved in such nasty events.

So you openly admit that you ignore chapter 1 where John puts down his guidelines for how to read his own book?

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.

 

[keras]

So you openly admit that you ignore chapter 1 where John puts down his guidelines for how to read his own book?

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.

I do not ignore any part of the Bible.
Revelation is the Words of Jesus. John wrote them down.

1/ 'soon' is a relative word. To us; it is next week, maybe. To the Lord, who inhabits Eternity, to us earth people, it can be a very long time. In fact; nearly 2000 years.
Jesus DID open the first Five Seals a soon as He Ascended to heaven.
Now, in His timing, we will soon experience the end time events, commencing with the Sixth Seal world changer.

2/ Actually very few of the early Church had access to the Book of Revelation. If they could even read it.
It was Written for us, now on the cusp of dramatic events.

3/ But the 'time wasn't near' at all. Nothing from Revelation 6:12 to the end has happened yet. If people think it has; they are deceived, there is no proof of any of it in the historical record.

4/ The 'tribulation' of the early Christians was persecution, nothing like what Revelation describes when the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls are opened.

May I request that those who agree with this post, please tick; agree or like.
If you don't agree, then tick; optimistic.

 

[DavidPT]

View attachment 307977

Unless I'm looking at your chart wrong, your chart seems to suggest that there is a gap after day 1335 until that of the 2nd coming. Daniel 12 doesn't mention any more days after the 1335th, though. You would think the reason why is because there are no more days after that. IOW, the 1335th day is meaning the end of days. Can't imagine the end of days happening without Christ returning first.

 

[Douggg]

Unless I'm looking at your chart wrong, your chart seems to suggest that there is a gap after day 1335 until that of the 2nd coming. Daniel 12 doesn't mention any more days after the 1335th, though. You would think the reason why is because there are no more days after that. IOW, the 1335th day is meaning the end of days. Can't imagine the end of days happening without Christ returning first.

There is not supposed to be a gap between the end of the 1335th day and the Second Coming. Are you talking about the dotted vertical line above "Jesus Returns" ? If so, I will fix it.

How's this?

 

[keras]

How's this?

Complete error.
There is only 1260 days from the AoD to the Return.
You can't even do math; the difference between 1260 and 1335, is 75 days.
Which is the exact time from the Return to the re-dedication of the Temple.