Sheol: is it a place or a state of being?

[YahuahSaves]

I was thinking about the human  soul and how the hebrew word Sheol is very similar....so similar infact, if you abbreviate the word Sheol you get S'ol.

"The implications of Sheol within the texts are therefore somewhat unclear; it can be interpreted as either a generic metaphor describing "the grave" into which all humans invariably descend, or, it may be interpreted as representing an actual state of afterlife within Israelite thought. Though such practices are forbidden, the inhabitants of Sheol can, under some circumstances, be summoned by the living, as when the Witch of Endor calls up the spirit of Samuel for Saul.[3]" Source

I looked up the etymology of the word "soul" and found something interesting:

Gothic saiwala), of uncertain origin.

"Sometimes said to mean originally "coming from or belonging to the sea," because that was supposed to be the stopping place of the soul before birth or after death [Barnhart]; if so, it would be from Proto-Germanic *saiwaz (see sea). Klein explains this as "from the lake," as a dwelling-place of souls in ancient northern Europe." Source

I then looked up the etymology of the word "spirit" (as soul and spirit are interchangeable) and it says this:

"Old French espirit "spirit, soul" (12c., Modern French esprit) and directly from Latin spiritus "a breathing (respiration, and of the wind), breath; breath of a god," hence "inspiration; breath of life," hence "life;" also "disposition, character; high spirit, vigor, courage; pride, arrogance," related to spirare "to breathe," perhaps from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (source also of Old Church Slavonic pisto "to play on the flute"). But de Vaan says "Possibly an onomatopoeic formation imitating the sound of breathing. There are no direct cognates."

It goes on to say - "Meaning "supernatural immaterial creature; angel, demon; an apparition, invisible corporeal being of an airy nature" is attested from mid-14c" Source

The hebrew word for the Holy Spirit is "Ruach" which means "breath" or "wind".

What does it mean God is a God of the living, not the dead? Perhaps because the living have the breath of life, the dead do not.

Mark 12:27

27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

But just because we die and cease to have a "spirit" does this mean we no longer have a soul? Refer to the etymology of the word "soul" I referenced at the start of the post, and look at what the scriptures say:

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Revelation 21:1-2
The New Jerusalem

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Is "the sea" symbolic for the realm of the dead? Our bodies go to the grave (the dust) and our souls go to another place awaiting resurrection.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This post, like your other related one ( As a Christian: do you believe we exist beyond the death of our physical body? ) assumes a solid default reality to this temporal existence, as though all future fact is also dependent on continuing time. Try to imagine all this time from the beginning to the end, as a tiny parenthesis in the larger economy of God's reality. I think it is more than likely that the dead experience no passage of time. From the moment they are gone, they are suddenly consciously in Heaven, (or Hell, or being caught up with him in the air), or perhaps at the Judgement, complete and in their resurrected body. We may see Abraham, Elijah, and even Adam, "arriving as we arrive".

There are a lot of reasons to think of it that way —it answers a lot of questions, and fits God's nature better than any other I have been able to consider. But I also have to admit that for all that we are capable of imagining or understanding, the truth of God's nature is most likely quite a bit more strange and solid than we can know. I've had atheists and others that object to Christianity ask, if God is omnipotent, why didn't he just speak the finished product, the reality of Heaven and Hell, into immediate existence, instead of running through all this many thousands (or billions, if you wish) of years to get there. My answer is, maybe he did! We just don't see it that way as yet.


I think there are many things written in the Bible the way they are because there is no better way to describe it to time-dependent humans (and no that doesn't mean they are not quite true). If our minds need something to be occurring to the dead until the resurrection, then the Bible is not lying to 'deal with us where we are at' —to speak to us according to our mindset and vocabulary.

 

[YahuahSaves]

This post, like your other related one ( As a Christian: do you believe we exist beyond the death of our physical body? ) assumes a solid default reality to this temporal existence, as though all future fact is also dependent on continuing time. Try to imagine all this time from the beginning to the end, as a tiny parenthesis in the larger economy of God's reality. I think it is more than likely that the dead experience no passage of time. From the moment they are gone, they are suddenly consciously in Heaven, (or Hell, or being caught up with him in the air), or perhaps at the Judgement, complete and in their resurrected body. We may see Abraham, Elijah, and even Adam, "arriving as we arrive".

There are a lot of reasons to think of it that way —it answers a lot of questions, and fits God's nature better than any other I have been able to consider. But I also have to admit that for all that we are capable of imagining or understanding, the truth of God's nature is most likely quite a bit more strange and solid than we can know. I've had atheists and others that object to Christianity ask, if God is omnipotent, why didn't he just speak the finished product, the reality of Heaven and Hell, into immediate existence, instead of running through all this many thousands (or billions, if you wish) of years to get there. My answer is, maybe he did! We just don't see it that way as yet.


I think there are many things written in the Bible the way they are because there is no better way to describe it to time-dependent humans (and no that doesn't mean they are not quite true). If our minds need something to be occurring to the dead until the resurrection, then the Bible is not lying to 'deal with us where we are at' —to speak to us according to our mindset and vocabulary.

So you copy and paste your answer? You still didn't answer the question I asked you in the other thread. Perhaps read a word study here, it's very eye-opening:

Sheol: the GRAVE? Gehenna? Hades? HELL?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So you copy and paste your answer? You still didn't answer the question I asked you in the other thread. Perhaps read a word study here, it's very eye-opening:

Sheol: the GRAVE? Gehenna? Hades? HELL?

Yep, copy and paste. From my point of view it was the same question; so same answer. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

Exactly what was the question I didn't answer?

 

[Tuur]

I think the important thing is that the word for the soul, regardless of its roots, refers to that part of us that continues. In our current bodies our souls now dwell and in our future bodies our souls will dwell, yet the soul continues between both.

Sheol seems to be an abode of the soul, but keep in mind that all we know of it is what's revealed to us in the bible. We dare not go beyond that. And yes, we can, and people have, argue about what's been revealed to us in scripture. Yet it is a place.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yep, copy and paste. From my point of view it was the same question; so same answer. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

Exactly what was the question I didn't answer?

You didn't offend me but you wasted my time. The question was pretty straightforward but you attempted to answer from God's perspective, which is impossible because you aren't God. I asked for your personal Christian/biblical POV.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You didn't offend me but you wasted my time. The question was pretty straightforward but you attempted to answer from God's perspective, which is impossible because you aren't God. I asked for your personal Christian/biblical POV.

The Bible is God's Word to us. The perspective takes that into account. If you want me to do a paper on the Biblical reasons for what I said, you will have to wait. True I am not God, but to answer from any other perspective falls short of truth. The perspective I tried to describe is the best I have been able to come up with, and has, with certain caveats, become my perspective.

 

[Jonaitis]

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no working or explaining or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."
- Ecclesiastes 9:10 LSB

"Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is broken and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
- Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 LBS

I think it is important to note that the "grave" was used in contrast to the "land of the living" in earlier Old Testament literature. The concept of a life after this one was almost foreign to these earlier writings. Israel's covenant was primarily concerned about being blessed in the here and now as opposed to the New Covenant, which is primarily concerned about eternity. It was called a place of silence, because it was the cessation of all activities. Again, in contrast to the living. What you think about in this life, the grave signifies its negation.

"For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?"
- Psalm 6:5 ESV

It seems that the latter prophets, as well as the New Testament authors, have taken a new approach to the concept by extension to a place after death for the wicked, an existence or state where people still are, but remain confined until judgment day. This new approach redefines what it originally meant, and gives it an eschatological reason at the end.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What does it mean God is a God of the living, not the dead? Perhaps because the living have the breath of life, the dead do not.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is speaking of the ressurection to everlasting life in contrast to the second death suffered by those who reject Him namely, the Sadducees, who He was speaking to in these verses. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are physically dead however they are alive in Christ through the resurrection on the last day.

Mark 12
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife.”

24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

 

[Blade]

Lazareth what did Jesus say? He said hes sleeping but the 12 didn't understand since we see it as death. This flesh as its written goes back to the dust but that spirit and soul? Yeah not dead.

 

[eleos1954]

I was thinking about the human  soul and how the hebrew word Sheol is very similar....so similar infact, if you abbreviate the word Sheol you get S'ol.

"The implications of Sheol within the texts are therefore somewhat unclear; it can be interpreted as either a generic metaphor describing "the grave" into which all humans invariably descend, or, it may be interpreted as representing an actual state of afterlife within Israelite thought. Though such practices are forbidden, the inhabitants of Sheol can, under some circumstances, be summoned by the living, as when the Witch of Endor calls up the spirit of Samuel for Saul.[3]" Source

I looked up the etymology of the word "soul" and found something interesting:

Gothic saiwala), of uncertain origin.

"Sometimes said to mean originally "coming from or belonging to the sea," because that was supposed to be the stopping place of the soul before birth or after death [Barnhart]; if so, it would be from Proto-Germanic *saiwaz (see sea). Klein explains this as "from the lake," as a dwelling-place of souls in ancient northern Europe." Source

I then looked up the etymology of the word "spirit" (as soul and spirit are interchangeable) and it says this:

"Old French espirit "spirit, soul" (12c., Modern French esprit) and directly from Latin spiritus "a breathing (respiration, and of the wind), breath; breath of a god," hence "inspiration; breath of life," hence "life;" also "disposition, character; high spirit, vigor, courage; pride, arrogance," related to spirare "to breathe," perhaps from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (source also of Old Church Slavonic pisto "to play on the flute"). But de Vaan says "Possibly an onomatopoeic formation imitating the sound of breathing. There are no direct cognates."

It goes on to say - "Meaning "supernatural immaterial creature; angel, demon; an apparition, invisible corporeal being of an airy nature" is attested from mid-14c" Source

The hebrew word for the Holy Spirit is "Ruach" which means "breath" or "wind".

What does it mean God is a God of the living, not the dead? Perhaps because the living have the breath of life, the dead do not.

Mark 12:27

27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

But just because we die and cease to have a "spirit" does this mean we no longer have a soul? Refer to the etymology of the word "soul" I referenced at the start of the post, and look at what the scriptures say:

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Revelation 21:1-2
The New Jerusalem

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Is "the sea" symbolic for the realm of the dead? Our bodies go to the grave (the dust) and our souls go to another place awaiting resurrection.

context ..... the word sea can be just that (a body of water) .... but can also be used symbolically to refers to people, tounges and nations. multitudes

example

Revelation 17

15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues

so one needs to read passages before and after to determine the context of what is being talked about.

Revelation 21:1-2. (context)

" the old earth had disappeared" ,,, in the context of the NEW earth

the OLD earth had disappeared .... then there would not be any water bodies .... or anything else for that matter.

Mark 12:27

Here Jesus is speaking to the Sadducees who did not believe in resurrection ....

In Romans 14:9 Paul makes a statement that seems to conflict with Jesus’ words: “For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.” Obviously, Paul is talking about two different groups of people: those who are actually dead and those who are alive. Jesus is Lord over both groups due to His resurrection.

His point in Mark is ..... yes .... there is resurrection from the grave and I have power over the grave (death).

 

[YahuahSaves]

I think it is important to note that the "grave" was used in contrast to the "land of the living" in earlier Old Testament literature. The concept of a life after this one was almost foreign to these earlier writings. Israel's covenant was primarily concerned about being blessed in the here and now as opposed to the New Covenant, which is primarily concerned about eternity. It was called a place of silence, because it was the cessation of all activities. Again, in contrast to the living. What you think about in this life, the grave signifies its negation.

It seems that the latter prophets, as well as the New Testament authors, have taken a new approach to the concept by extension to a place after death for the wicked, an existence or state where people still are, but remain confined until judgment day. This new approach redefines what it originally meant, and gives it an eschatological reason at the end.

And what do you think the "sea" means in scripture?

I looked up the etymology of the word "soul" and found something interesting:

Gothic saiwala), of uncertain origin.

"Sometimes said to mean originally "coming from or belonging to the sea," because that was supposed to be the stopping place of the soul before birth or after death [Barnhart]; if so, it would be from Proto-Germanic *saiwaz (see sea). Klein explains this as "from the lake," as a dwelling-place of souls in ancient northern Europe." Source

But just because we die and cease to have a "spirit" does this mean we no longer have a soul? Refer to the etymology of the word "soul" I referenced at the start of the post, and look at what the scriptures say:

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Revelation 21:1-2
The New Jerusalem

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Is "the sea" symbolic for the realm of the dead? Our bodies go to the grave (the dust) and our souls go to another place awaiting resurrection.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is speaking of the ressurection to everlasting life in contrast to the second death suffered by those who reject Him namely, the Sadducees, who He was speaking to in these verses. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are physically dead however they are alive in Christ through the resurrection on the last day.

Mark 12
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife.”

24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

And what do you think the "sea" is referring to in scripture?

I looked up the etymology of the word "soul" and found something interesting:

Gothic saiwala), of uncertain origin.

"Sometimes said to mean originally "coming from or belonging to the sea," because that was supposed to be the stopping place of the soul before birth or after death [Barnhart]; if so, it would be from Proto-Germanic *saiwaz (see sea). Klein explains this as "from the lake," as a dwelling-place of souls in ancient northern Europe." Source

But just because we die and cease to have a "spirit" does this mean we no longer have a soul? Refer to the etymology of the word "soul" I referenced at the start of the post, and look at what the scriptures say:

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Revelation 21:1-2
The New Jerusalem

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Is "the sea" symbolic for the realm of the dead? Our bodies go to the grave (the dust) and our souls go to another place awaiting resurrection.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Lazareth what did Jesus say? He said hes sleeping but the 12 didn't understand since we see it as death. This flesh as its written goes back to the dust but that spirit and soul? Yeah not dead.

So do you think the "sea" could be symbolic of where our soul goes after we die?

I looked up the etymology of the word "soul" and found something interesting:

Gothic saiwala), of uncertain origin.

"Sometimes said to mean originally "coming from or belonging to the sea," because that was supposed to be the stopping place of the soul before birth or after death [Barnhart]; if so, it would be from Proto-Germanic *saiwaz (see sea). Klein explains this as "from the lake," as a dwelling-place of souls in ancient northern Europe." Source

But just because we die and cease to have a "spirit" does this mean we no longer have a soul? Refer to the etymology of the word "soul" I referenced at the start of the post, and look at what the scriptures say:

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Revelation 21:1-2
The New Jerusalem

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Is "the sea" symbolic for the realm of the dead? Our bodies go to the grave (the dust) and our souls go to another place awaiting resurrection

 

[YahuahSaves]

context ..... the word sea can be just that (a body of water) .... but can also be used symbolically to refers to people, tounges and nations. multitudes

example

Revelation 17

15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues

so one needs to read passages before and after to determine the context of what is being talked about.

Revelation 21:1-2. (context)

" the old earth had disappeared" ,,, in the context of the NEW earth

the OLD earth had disappeared .... then there would not be any water bodies .... or anything else for that matter.

Mark 12:27

Here Jesus is speaking to the Sadducees who did not believe in resurrection ....

In Romans 14:9 Paul makes a statement that seems to conflict with Jesus’ words: “For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.” Obviously, Paul is talking about two different groups of people: those who are actually dead and those who are alive. Jesus is Lord over both groups due to His resurrection.

His point in Mark is ..... yes .... there is resurrection from the grave and I have power over the grave (death).

If the sea refers to nations, why does revelation 20 describe the sea giving up it's dead? See my quotes. It goes on to say "and death and the grave gave up their dead". The sea mentions "it's dead" like a place (singular) death and the grave says "their dead" (plural) my guess is it's talking about the sea as the underworld where the souls are and the grave being where the bodies are.

I looked up the etymology of the word "soul" and found something interesting:

Gothic saiwala), of uncertain origin.

"Sometimes said to mean originally "coming from or belonging to the sea," because that was supposed to be the stopping place of the soul before birth or after death [Barnhart]; if so, it would be from Proto-Germanic *saiwaz (see sea). Klein explains this as "from the lake," as a dwelling-place of souls in ancient northern Europe." Source

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

And what do you think the "sea" is referring to in scripture?

I'm not sure how "sea" relates to our spirit.
For reference , here is the Jewish Encyclopedia:

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord" (Prov. xx. 27); "There is a spirit in man" (Job xxxii. 8); "The spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. xii. 7). The soul is called in Biblical literature "ruaḥ," "nefesh," and "neshamah." The first of these terms denotes the spirit in its primitive state; the second, in its association with the body; the third, in its activity while in the body.

 

[Aaron112]

The question was pretty straightforward but you attempted to answer from God's perspective, which is impossible because you aren't God.

... saving for later some of the mistakes in the op,
in the NT, maybe in the OT,
it is written in harmony with all Scripture, the Father's Word,
that "we have the thoughts of Jesus", as revealed, as made known, from the Father in heaven, so yes, those to whom He Reveals the Truth, know the Truth, while others don't.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I'm not sure how "sea" relates to our spirit.
For reference , here is the Jewish Encyclopedia:

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord" (Prov. xx. 27); "There is a spirit in man" (Job xxxii. 8); "The spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. xii. 7). The soul is called in Biblical literature "ruaḥ," "nefesh," and "neshamah." The first of these terms denotes the spirit in its primitive state; the second, in its association with the body; the third, in its activity while in the body.

Then how do you read this, what does "the sea gave up it's dead" (singular) refer to? It goes on to say, "and death and the grave gave up their dead" (plural). It seems like there's more than one place for the "dead"?

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds

 

[YahuahSaves]

... saving for later some of the mistakes in the op,
in the NT, maybe in the OT,
it is written in harmony with all Scripture, the Father's Word,
that "we have the thoughts of Jesus", as revealed, as made known, from the Father in heaven, so yes, those to whom He Reveals the Truth, know the Truth, while others don't.

What "mistakes" in the OP? Explain.

I've had things revealed to me by God... are we both wrong?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Then how do you read this, what does "the sea gave up it's dead" (singular) refer to? It goes on to say, "and death and the grave gave up their dead" (plural). It seems like there's more than one place for the "dead"?

If your trying to find an answer as to where the saved and unsaved go before all are ressurected, there is nothing clear in scripture to tell us. And may I also add, this detail is left out for a very good reason.
Blessings.