Sheep of Christ

[Frogster]

LLOJ subscribes

Good morning dude!

 

[The Penitent Man]

I am a Sheep insofar as the Lord is my Shepherd.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by WailingWall Who are the sheep of Christ. What does Jesus do to bring those sheep back in the fold. Who are the sheep Jesus came for who are not of the fold?

They are the baaaaad guys.

I don't think these "shepherds" were part of the fold He came to save

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7272732
The Court in Revelation 11:2

Matthew 3:7 Being aware yet many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming upon the baptism of him he said to them "produce of vipers! who shows to ye to be fleeing from the being about Wrath

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067> "

Reve 14:14 and the smoke of the torment of them into ages of ages is ascending
and not they are having rest day and night the ones worshipping the beast and the image of it and if any is getting the image of the name of it.

 

[bugkiller]

Hi Bible 2,

I'll say you certianly know how to quote the Bible.

Romans 2:29 is referring to those who are Jews in spirit, whether they are Jews or Gentiles: Philippians 3:3. (In Acts 7:51, the uncircumcision of the ears is figurative, like the uncircumcision of the heart.)

as I said:

In Rom 2 Paul is addressing Jewish believers gloating about their supposed status by being natural blood line Jews opposed to the entire body of Christians. Read the whole chapter and you will find things like: ‘Behold thou art called a Jew, and resteth in the law…being instructed out of the law…‘Thou that makest thy boast of the law.’ This is definitely not speaking of Greeks/gentiles. Starting v 25 we find Paul addressing the value of circumcision. Who is circumcised? The Jew not the Greek/gentile. If you speak of spiritual circumcision as a requirement, you must also circumcise your ears (Acts 7:51). I’ll be looking for a picture confirmation.

You are calling all Christians Jews (in reality or spirit does not matter). And you are also saying that you rest in the law and make your boast of the law in keeping with the context. Gal 5:4 states that if you rest in the law and make your boast in the law that 'Christ is of no effect...' and 'ye are fallen from grace.' In other words your are no longer redeemed (saved) because Jesus is of no value - you are boasting in the law not Jesus.

If 'uncircumcision' is figurative so is 'circumcision.' The prefix 'un' does not change reality or make something figurative. It is the equivalent of saying not circumcised. Paul says circumcision is of no value in reference to his relationship with Christ. He counts it as dung. We know what that is a polite for. The idea is it has no value and is worthless. Circumcision of the flesh is required to enter and to participate in the covenant with the COI (children of Israel). The subverts of Acts 15 would agree. Acts 15 via the Holy Ghost also indicates they are wrong. We do not have to observe the OC (Old covenant) to be or as Christians.

In verse 29 Paul is communicating the same idea as Jesus when He said 'If you were of your father Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.' Jesus is getting at unbelief. The same thing as not being circumcised in your heart.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2,

Re: Phil 3:3

So are you saying that we must be the circumcision (a Jew, spiritual or other wise does not change the meaning) to worship God in the spirit? I think Paul is acknowledging that he is speaking as a Jew and Jewish Christian to Jewish Christians. Remember Paul's statement 'I became a Jew, that I might gain the Jews...' I believe that circumcision here refers to the group of people as Christians. In that the verse would say the same thing if it read 'For we are Christians which worship God in the spirit.' Or "For we are the people of God, which worship God in the spirit.' The following verses indicate that circumcision is of no value and prove nothing. Paul is certianly not calling Christians dung. Surely you would understand the phrase 'we are the circumcision' to a reference to a group of people.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2,

You use the term figurative about Rom 2:29 and don't understand that 'fellowcitizens ' of Eph 2:19 is also a figurative term meaning fellow christians, not citizens of Israel or Jews. The same is applicatable for the following pharase 'of the household of God. Notice it also says with the saints (those who are blameless), not Jews or Israel.

Bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bible 2,

You use the term figurative about Rom 2:29 and don't understand that 'fellowcitizens ' of Eph 2:19 is also a figurative term meaning fellow christians, not citizens of Israel or Jews. The same is applicatable for the following pharase 'of the household of God. Notice it also says with the saints (those who are blameless), not Jews or Israel.

Bugkiller

Greetings bugkiller.....interesting username btw
You might want to check out this thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7347885/
Who is the "Cloud of Witnesses"?

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2,

Romans 11:1 and Acts 22:3 make no mention of being a Christian. In both Paul is appealing to Jews and calling himself a Jew, not a Christian. It is also a well known fact that Paul is a Christian. However neither of these two verses you cite support that fact.

You really should take a serious look at the parble of the olive tree in Roman 11. It certianly does not imply that the wild olive branch ever becomes a natural or tame branch. It does say with them partakest, it does not say become them. slight difference.

Where do you get the idea that the new covenant is only made with the Jews? It does state it will not be like the covenant God made with their fathers. This is in the same flavor of Deut 5:3 in talking about who the COI's (Jews) covenant was made with. It was not Abraham.

In John 10:14-16 v 16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Which fold is Jesus bringing these other sheep He has into? It does not say He is bringing them into “this fold.” It does say there will be “one fold.” Please note that Jesus is talking to Jews. The sheep which are not of this fold are not brought into this fold. It does say there will be one fold. Thus both will be brought into one fold and not this fold.

1 Corinthians 12:13 shows that both Jews and Gentiles are the same (Christians). It makes nor implies anything about Israel or becoming Jews (spiritual or natural).

Please quote and show (demonstrate) that Revelations 21:9-12 say all believers are Jews or Israel.

John 15:5 does not mention Israel or Jews. Are you making Jesus to be Israel? The text does not so imply. If anything is implied it would be that the Vine is God (Jesus).

Romans 11:1 makes no mention of being a Christian. And please carefully go over the parable of the olive tree again. Pretty please.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2,

I might ad in reference to Jere 31:31-34 that there is no exclusive intention. It simply says it will not be like the previously made with their fathers. It does not say anything about the content or who all it might include. It does talk about the administration. It will be a Royal grant covenant. A royal grant requires no condition except acceptance on the part of the beneificiary. A suzerian covenant (like the one with the COI) requires conditional performance of both parties.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

LittleLambofJesus,

Greetings bugkiller.....interesting username btw

Thanks I used to take care of the deceased twice a day as I washed off my winshield. More often when in the swampy south especially in the spring. I drove a big truck.

bugkiller

 

[Bible2]

bugkiller:

as I said:

In Rom 2 Paul is addressing Jewish believers gloating about their supposed status by being natural blood line Jews opposed to the entire body of Christians. Read the whole chapter and you will find things like: ‘Behold thou art called a Jew, and resteth in the law…being instructed out of the law…‘Thou that makest thy boast of the law.’ This is definitely not speaking of Greeks/gentiles. Starting v 25 we find Paul addressing the value of circumcision. Who is circumcised? The Jew not the Greek/gentile

Romans 2 refers to Gentiles as well (Romans 2:26). Both Jews and Gentiles are to be circumcised in spirit (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:28-29).

If you speak of spiritual circumcision as a requirement, you must also circumcise your ears (Acts 7:51). I’ll be looking for a picture confirmation.

In Acts 7:51, the circumcision of the ears is spiritual, like the circumcision of the heart.

You are calling all Christians Jews (in reality or spirit does not matter).

All Christians are Jews in spirit, for they have all been circumcised in spirit (Romans 2:29, Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3). But Gentile Christians remain Gentiles physically (Romans 16:4), just as Jewish Christians remain Jews physically (Acts 22:3).

And you are also saying that you rest in the law and make your boast of the law in keeping with the context.

The point of Romans 2 is that no Christians are to rest in the law or make their boast in the law, not even physically-Jewish Christians, for the only circumcision that Christians are to boast in is the spiritual circumcision of Christ (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29), never the physical circumcision of the law.

While all Christians "establish the law" (Romans 3:31), they do so only in spirit, by loving others (Galatians 5:14).

Gal 5:4 states that if you rest in the law and make your boast in the law that 'Christ is of no effect...' and 'ye are fallen from grace.' In other words your are no longer redeemed (saved) because Jesus is of no value - you are boasting in the law not Jesus.

Amen.

If 'uncircumcision' is figurative so is 'circumcision.' The prefix 'un' does not change reality or make something figurative. It is the equivalent of saying not circumcised.

That's right. Acts 7:51 meant that they were figuratively not circumcised: they were not circumcised spiritually as all Christians are (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29).

Paul says circumcision is of no value in reference to his relationship with Christ. He counts it as dung. We know what that is a polite for. The idea is it has no value and is worthless.

Philippians 3:5-8 refers only to the physical circumcision of the law being worthless, not the spiritual circumcision of Christ that all Christians undergo (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29).

Circumcision of the flesh is required to enter and to participate in the covenant with the COI (children of Israel). The subverts of Acts 15 would agree. Acts 15 via the Holy Ghost also indicates they are wrong. We do not have to observe the OC (Old covenant) to be or as Christians.

Physical circumcision is not required (1 Corinthians 7:18-19) to participate in the New Covenant made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). That's one of the ways that the New Covenant is "not according to" the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32), which has been abolished (Hebrews 7:18-19).

In verse 29 Paul is communicating the same idea as Jesus when He said 'If you were of your father Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.' Jesus is getting at unbelief. The same thing as not being circumcised in your heart.

That's right, the spiritual circumcision of the heart comes only through faith in Christ (Colossians 2:11-12), just as physical circumcision began only as a sign of the righteousness that comes only by faith (Romans 4:11).

Re: Phil 3:3

So are you saying that we must be the circumcision (a Jew, spiritual or other wise does not change the meaning) to worship God in the spirit?

Philippians 3:3 is referring to all Christians being the spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:11); all Christians are Jews in spirit (Romans 2:29).

I think Paul is acknowledging that he is speaking as a Jew and Jewish Christian to Jewish Christians. Remember Paul's statement 'I became a Jew, that I might gain the Jews...' I believe that circumcision here refers to the group of people as Christians. In that the verse would say the same thing if it read 'For we are Christians which worship God in the spirit.' Or "For we are the people of God, which worship God in the spirit.' The following verses indicate that circumcision is of no value and prove nothing. Paul is certianly not calling Christians dung. Surely you would understand the phrase 'we are the circumcision' to a reference to a group of people.

In Philippians 3:1-3, Paul is addressing both Gentile and Jewish Christians, just as in Philippians 3:15-21, Paul is addressing both Gentile and Jewish Christians. The point of Philippians 3:3-14 is simply to contrast the Christian, spiritual circumcision and worship of Philippians 3:3 with the worthlessness of the physical circumcision and law-keeping of Philippians 3:5-9.

You use the term figurative about Rom 2:29 and don't understand that 'fellowcitizens ' of Eph 2:19 is also a figurative term meaning fellow christians, not citizens of Israel or Jews. The same is applicatable for the following pharase 'of the household of God. Notice it also says with the saints (those who are blameless), not Jews or Israel.

Ephesians 2:12,19 means that Gentile Christians are no longer strangers to Israel, but are now fellowcitizens in Israel with Jewish Christians.

Romans 11:1 and Acts 22:3 make no mention of being a Christian. In both Paul is appealing to Jews and calling himself a Jew, not a Christian. It is also a well known fact that Paul is a Christian. However neither of these two verses you cite support that fact.

Romans 11:1 and Acts 22:3 were not referenced to support the fact that Paul is a Christian, but to show that even as a Christian, Paul is an Israelite and a Jew.

You really should take a serious look at the parble of the olive tree in Roman 11. It certianly does not imply that the wild olive branch ever becomes a natural or tame branch. It does say with them partakest, it does not say become them. slight difference.

It hasn't been said that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a physical Jew. But Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining physical Gentiles, are still grafted into the good olive tree of Israel, the physical-Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24).

Where do you get the idea that the new covenant is only made with the Jews? It does state it will not be like the covenant God made with their fathers. This is in the same flavor of Deut 5:3 in talking about who the COI's (Jews) covenant was made with. It was not Abraham.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows that the New Covenant is made only with Israel. Gentile Christians partake of it by being grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19), by becoming the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29), which is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Deuteronomy 1:8).

In John 10:14-16 v 16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Which fold is Jesus bringing these other sheep He has into? It does not say He is bringing them into “this fold.” It does say there will be “one fold.” Please note that Jesus is talking to Jews. The sheep which are not of this fold are not brought into this fold. It does say there will be one fold. Thus both will be brought into one fold and not this fold.

John 10:16 does mean that Jesus will "bring" Gentile Christians into "this fold" of Israel, so that there will then be only one fold (one body) of both Jewish and Gentile Christians (1 Corinthians 12:13). This is the same teaching as Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, and Galatians 3:29.

1 Corinthians 12:13 shows that both Jews and Gentiles are the same (Christians). It makes nor implies anything about Israel or becoming Jews (spiritual or natural).

1 Corinthians 12:13 was referenced with regard to there being one body consisting of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. It is other verses which show that both Jewish and Gentile Christians are Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and Jews in spirit (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11).

Please quote and show (demonstrate) that Revelations 21:9-12 say all believers are Jews or Israel.

Revelation 21:12 refers to Israel in its description of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21:9, and the bride of Christ consists of all believers (Ephesians 5:30-32).

John 15:5 does not mention Israel or Jews. Are you making Jesus to be Israel? The text does not so imply. If anything is implied it would be that the Vine is God (Jesus).

In John 15:5 the vine is Jesus. But believers receive salvation from Jesus only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). That's why Gentile Christians are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Romans 11:1 makes no mention of being a Christian.

(See the reply above regarding why Romans 11:1 was referenced.)

And please carefully go over the parable of the olive tree again. Pretty please.

The good olive tree is Israel, the physical Jews' own tree (Romans 11:24). Believing Gentiles are like branches from a wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17).

I might ad in reference to Jere 31:31-34 that there is no exclusive intention. It simply says it will not be like the previously made with their fathers. It does not say anything about the content or who all it might include. It does talk about the administration. It will be a Royal grant covenant. A royal grant requires no condition except acceptance on the part of the beneificiary. A suzerian covenant (like the one with the COI) requires conditional performance of both parties.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 does say that the New Covenant is made only with Israel. That's why salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22) and the gospel goes to the Jew first (Romans 1:16).

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2,

Let me respond in a series of post so they will quickly be read. It will seem unorganized due to both being so lengthy and repeated statements. Hope that it maintains interest to the end. There is really no good breaking point.

You are really big on circumcision aren't you?
Rom 2:25 says circumcision only profits you, if you keep the whole law, meaning the Torah.
Your reference to Romans 2:26 does not call Christians the circumcision and no where in scripture will you find that all Christians are referred to as the circumcised. The verse only refers to gentiles as the uncircumcised and as Christians. Paul is specifically referring to the gentile segment of the Church. The circumcised only refers to Jews, whether Christian or not. Chapter 2 is dealing with the Jewish segment of the Church. Paul is contrasting the Jew against the gentile. He is in no way calling all Christians the circumcision or calling them to it in any form. Paul no where promotes or endorses circumcision. Paul teaches in I Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in umcircumcision? Let him not be circumcised. 19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing…’ And I have this sneaky feeling that you are going to finish verse 19 with we are to keep the commandments of God, implying the law specifically the 4th of the Ten. Paul does not teach any form of circumcision. For circumcision of the heart to be required circumcision it has to be of value. Paul counted his circumcision as dung - worthless.
You are trying to prove that Christians are obligated to the old covenant. Paul says you are committing spiritual adultery Rom 7. He is also calling the law (Torah - laws of Moses - and the Ten Commandments by reference) a DEAD HUSBAND. And Christians are married to another. Just why you wish to be married to a dead person is beyond me. YUK! Married to a dead person.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2 continued

What does the New Testament say about &#8216;the law&#8216;?
&#8216;&#8230;we are delivered from the law&#8230;&#8217; Rom 7:6
&#8216;&#8230;ye are not under the law&#8230;&#8217; 6:14 The word &#8216;under&#8217; means subject to.
&#8216;&#8230;we are not under the law&#8230;&#8217; 6:15.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested&#8230;&#8217;3:21
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.&#8217; 3:28 Gal 4:21 &#8216;Tell me ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
5:3] &#8216;&#8230;he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4] Christ is become of no effect unto you who are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.&#8217; In other words you have no salvation.
Eph 2:15 &#8216;Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances&#8230;&#8217;

THE LAW HAS LOST ITS JURISDICTION!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2 continuation

Just who do you think the ‘concision’ of Phil 3:2 is? These are the same as the circumcision in verse 3 except in verse 3 they are Christians. Again are you saying we must be circumcised to worship God? If so you are trying to obligate Christians to observe the law (commit spiritual adultery). Col 2:11 says ‘by the circumcision of Christ.’ It says nothing about what is done in us. It does say it is done because of Christ. You are adding to the Book when you say: ‘Both Jews and Gentiles are to be circumcised in spirit’ (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:28-29).

In Acts 7:51, the circumcision of the ears is spiritual, like the circumcision of the heart.

And is of NO VALUE! (I Cor 7:19) This (Acts 7:51) is also addressing unbelief as Jesus did in saying If ye were Abraham’s children John 8:39 and backing up to v 37, because My word hath no place in you. Paul’s statement in Rom 2:29 is also implying unbelief - heart issue. He is not saying we are anything. Neither is Paul acknowledging or promoting any kind of circumcision.


All Christians are Jews in spirit, for they have all been circumcised in spirit (Romans 2:29, Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3).

No they’re not and no they have not been circumcised in spirit. Paul is talking about unbelieving Jews in v 29.

But Gentile Christians remain Gentiles physically (Romans 16:4), just as Jewish Christians remain Jews physically (Acts 22:3).

I agree as stated in I Cor 7: 18, 19, but not with your references.

Bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2 more

Just where do get boasting in these your references to Col 2:11, Phil 3:3, or Rom 2:29?

While all Christians "establish the law" (Romans 3:31), they do so only in spirit, by loving others (Galatians 5:14).

Anyone can put together verses to mean anything they wish. Romans 3:31 says established by faith not what we do with our neighbor. Yes the administering of love fulfills the law, of both covenants, old and new.

That's right. Acts 7:51 meant that they were figuratively not circumcised: they were not circumcised spiritually as all Christians are (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29).

Acts 7:51 is addressing stubborn unbelief, not circumcision, as in all references to spiritual circumcision. Spiritual circumcision is a picture phrase for a condition of the heart known as belief (uncirccumcisin is pictured as unbleief). Again I cite I Cor 7:18, 19 as quoted above. There is NO VALUE IN CIRCUMCISION, spiritual or physical. Paul says circumcision is of no value in reference to his relationship with Christ. He counts it as dung. We know what that is a polite for. The idea is it has no value and is worthless.

Philippians 3:5-8 refers only to the physical circumcision of the law being worthless, not the spiritual circumcision of Christ that all Christians undergo (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29).

Once again you are missing the intent of Rom 2:29. And that is unbelief. Christians do not undergo circumcision. Col 2:11 says it was done ‘by circumcision of Christ.’ In other word Christ is our circumcision.

I guess while were at it, let me ask how often are you spiritually circumcised? It is a picture that we are severed from sin. Just how often do you sin, proving you are spiritually uncircumcised? Your circumcision becomes uncircumcision (physical or spiritual) when you break the law according to Romans 2 God is blasphemed by you among the gentiles (or the world).

Physical circumcision is not required (1 Corinthians 7:18-19) to participate in the New Covenant made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). That's one of the ways that the New Covenant is "not according to" the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32), which has been abolished (Hebrews 7:18-19).

And neither is spiritual circumcision. I Cor 7:18, 19 mentions nothing about covenant. It mentions nothing about salvation. Salvation is a spiritual issue and in that sense the context of I Cor 7:18, 19 is talking about spiritual circumcision. It does say that circumcision and uncircumcision are worthless. It does not say you become circumcised in any way when you become a Christian. You can not join into or participate in the covenant of Israel without (spiritual, you insist) circumcision. You did say the covenant is only with Israel. This means that one must join Israel (become a Jew) to be saved. That is what the subverts of Acts 15 promoted. Yet you are demanding that we are circumcised (spiritually). So in order to be included in that covenant you must be circumcised. Paul says NO. CIRRCUMCISION IS NOTHING - WORTHLESS. No qualifiers. The new covenant deals with and changes the heart or character and the old covenant rules the flesh or behavior, not character (the heart). When the character is changed the behavior changes. The law failed in this respect and was proven to be faulty. Even if it was because of the hearer. It did not accomplish its goal in this respect. It simply did not establish an individual’s righteousness. And neither does spiritual circumcision.

Also a question for you. Since there is no Jew in Christ, how is there an Israel? No Jew - no Israel. Gal 3:28

So are you saying that we must be the circumcision (a Jew, spiritual or other wise does not change the meaning) to worship God in the spirit?

Philippians 3:3 is referring to all Christians being the spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:11); all Christians are Jews in spirit (Romans 2:29).

I disagree with your premise based on Rom 2:29. Rom 2:29 is addressing Jewish Christians only as can be well established by the context of the chapter and by v. 29 alone. Phil 3:3 states that Paul is both Jewish and Christian. It does not say or imply that all Christians are circumcised. Remember Paul's statement 'I became a Jew, that I might gain the Jews...' I believe that circumcision here refers to the group of people of Jewish Christians. I also am remembering the subverts of Act 15.

In Philippians 3:1-3, Paul is addressing both Gentile and Jewish Christians, just as in
Philippians 3:15-21, Paul is addressing both Gentile and Jewish Christians. The point of Philippians 3:3-14 is simply to contrast the Christian, spiritual circumcision and worship of Philippians 3:3 with the worthlessness of the physical circumcision and law-keeping of Philippians 3:5-9.

Paul is addressing the whole body of believers in Philipi according to 1:1 and is dealing with the subverts (Acts 15), those demanding that gentiles follow the law in chapter 3. Paul is addressing the subvert (Jews demanding that Gentiles become Jews and observe/obey/follow the law, Acts 15) problem. Paul is not addressing the whole body of believers as circumcisedIn this vain when a person becomes a Christian, their character (heart) is changed and in that context cuts off sin or becomes circumcised from sin. Circumcise in the OT means to curtail, cut short, destroy. It is even translated as cut down. Again I think you are trying to show obligation to the Old Covenant at least in part. This is adultery.
No, Paul is saying we the circumcsion (Jewish Christians) worship. He is not comparing worship to Jewish heritage. I agree that Paul is saying circumcision and law keeping is worthless.

bugkiller

 

[Albion]

The message was preached first to the Jews (the sheep inside the fold) and then to the gentiles (the sheep outside the fold).

But what of those who are specifically called "the lost sheep of Israel?" They can't be Israel proper, for it wasn't lost, and it can't refer to the Gentiles, for they are not Israel, whether lost or not.

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2 and more

Ephesians 2:12,19 means that Gentile Christians are no longer strangers to Israel, but are now fellowcitizens in Israel with Jewish Christians.

You use the term figurative about Rom 2:29 and don't understand that 'fellowcitizens ' of Eph 2:19 is also a figurative term meaning fellow Christians, not citizens of or in Israel. The same is applicable for the following pharase 'of the household of God. Those of the household of God are His relatives or an adherent (fellow Christian), which verifies the phrase preceding the coma. This verse says nothing about citizenship of or in Israel. Notice it also says with the saints (those who are blameless), not Jews or Israel. The parable of the olive tree in Rom 11 is saying the same thing. It says ‘with them partakest.’ It does not say become them.

Romans 11:1 and Acts 22:3 were not referenced to support the fact that Paul is a Christian, but to show that even as a Christian, Paul is an Israelite and a Jew.

This is fine, but neither of these verses support that all Christians are spiritual Jews or Israelites.

It hasn't been said that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a physical Jew. But Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining physical Gentiles, are still grafted into the good olive tree of Israel, the physical-Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24).

I’m sorry I misunderstood you. If they don’t become a physical Jew and they aren’t a spiritual Jew, what are they? I sure don't understand it saying that spiritual Jews are broken off. Must be that spiritual Jews are not Jews. I don't think the parable said anything about two (2) kinds of Jews. You insist that all Christians are Spiritual Jews based on what? You used both verses to support being a spiritual Jew. I pointed out that ’with them’ does not mean become them. If you are a spiritual Jew as you contend, are you not a Jew? Use all the adjectives you want. A Jew is a Jew. We both partake of the Root, not the tree. We are heirs and seed of Abraham of not Israel (Gal 3:29). Gal 3:28 says ‘neither Jew.’ ‘Neither’ means not one as in absolutely none. There is no qualifier. If you provide one, it is called adding to the book. No Jew - no Israel. We are all one in Christ Jesus, not Israel. We are not all Jews in Christ Jesus. There are none. We are translated into the kingdom of His dear Son, not Israel.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows that the New Covenant is made only with Israel. Gentile Christians partake of it by being grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19), by becoming the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29), which is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Deuteronomy 1:8).

Where do you get the idea that the new covenant is only made with the Jews? It does not state what will be included in the new covenant. It does state it will not be like the covenant God made with their fathers. This is in the same flavor of Deut 5:3 in talking about who the COI's (Jews) covenant was made with. It was not Abraham. Abraham is not Israel. Israel is a seed of Abraham as pointed out in Isaiah 41:8. And Deut 1:8 is not stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are Israel. Their seed after them is Israel. Jeremiah does not indicate exclusive. Using ‘only’ is adding to the book.

In John 10:14-16 v 16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Which fold is Jesus bringing these other sheep He has into? It does not say He is bringing them into “this fold.” It does say there will be “one fold.” Please note that Jesus is talking to Jews and indicating they are this fold. The sheep which are not of this fold are not brought into this fold. It does say there will be one fold. Thus both will be brought into one fold and not this fold.

John 10:16 does mean that Jesus will "bring" Gentile Christians into "this fold" of Israel, so that there will then be only one fold (one body) of both Jewish and Gentile Christians (1 Corinthians 12:13). This is the same teaching as Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, and Galatians 3:29.

So where do you get ‘this fold’ from? Are you editing the scripture? There is a noted difference from sheep not of ‘this fold’ and ‘one fold.’ You are still trying to say Christians are Jews and obligated to the law. I Cor 12:13 does not imply that Jews and Gentiles will both be any kind of Jews. It does state that they will become one body. A very new concept from the OC and for the Jews. As a whole they (Jews) reject this concept. These other verses (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11) you give do not support Christians being Israel.

bugkliier

 

[bugkiller]

Bible 2

Here's the last of this group. I'll do better next time. Discovered advanced reply.

Please quote and show (demonstrate) that Revelations 21:9-12 say all believers are Jews or Israel. To which you provide:
Revelation 21:12 refers to Israel in its description of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21:9, and the bride of Christ consists of all believers (Ephesians 5:30-32).

Are you saying that the bride of Christ is a wall of a great city upon which the names of the twelve tribes are etched? And foundation of the wall has the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Some bride I must say! It is certainly the first time I ever heard the bride of Christ is a city. I Think the bride shows up in v 27 - ‘they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.’

In John 15:5 the vine is Jesus. But believers receive salvation from Jesus only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). That's why Gentile Christians are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Then why are Jews also graft into the olive tree, if it is Israel? There are NO Jews or Gentiles in Christ. No Jews, no Israel and per your presentation there can be no olive tree either. A tree with no branches is no tree, just a trunk.

The good olive tree is Israel, the physical Jews' own tree (Romans 11:24). Believing Gentiles are like branches from a wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17). Yes and the Jews are graft into their own tree.

I might ad in reference to Jere 31:31-34 that there is no exclusive intention. It simply says it will not be like the previously made with their fathers. It does not say anything about the content or who all it might include. It does talk about the administration. It will be a Royal grant covenant. A royal grant requires no condition except acceptance on the part of the beneficiary. A suzerian covenant (like the one with the COI) requires conditional performance of both parties.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 does say that the New Covenant is made only with Israel. That's why salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22) and the gospel goes to the Jew first (Romans 1:16).

Where do you get 'only' from? I did not find it. I think that Romans 3:2 tempers John 4:22 very well. It says ‘that unto them were committed the oracles of God.’ Salvation is thru Jesus who says I am the door and you gotta come thru Me if you be gettin‘ in.
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Think this gets everything commented on that you posted which I think appears at the top of this page.


thanks for bearing with me.

bugkiller
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[Bible2]

bugkiller:
Rom 2:25 says circumcision only profits you, if you keep the whole law

Romans 2:25 is referring only to physical circumcision (Romans 2:28), not spiritual circumcision (Romans 2:29).

Your reference to Romans 2:26 does not call Christians the circumcision and no where in scripture will you find that all Christians are referred to as the circumcised.

Romans 2:26 shows that believing Gentiles are included in the spiritual circumcision of Romans 2:29, Colossians 2:11, and Philippians 3:3.

Paul teaches in I Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in umcircumcision? Let him not be circumcised.

1 Corinthians 7:18 is referring only to physical circumcision, which is not required of Christians.

Paul counted his circumcision as dung - worthless.

Philippians 3:5-8 is referring only to physical circumcision, not spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3).

You are trying to prove that Christians are obligated to the old covenant.

Christians are not obligated to the Old Covenant law (Hebrews 7:18-19). Christians "establish the law" (Romans 3:31) only in spirit, by loving others (Galatians 5:14).

Just who do you think the ‘concision’ of Phil 3:2 is?

The "concision" (katatome) in Philippians 3:2 was Paul's derogatory term for those who wrongly teach that physical circumcision is required.

These are the same as the circumcision in verse 3 except in verse 3 they are Christians.

The "cirumcision" (peritome) in Philippians 3:3 refers to the spiritual circumcision which all Christians undergo (Colossians 2:11, Romans 2:29).

Paul is talking about unbelieving Jews in v 29.

In Romans 2:29, Paul is talking about believing Jews and Gentiles, who have all been spiritually circumcised (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3).

Romans 3:31 says established by faith not what we do with our neighbor.

For faith to remain alive it must love its neighbor in deed (James 2:14-26, 1 John 3:18).

Acts 7:51 is addressing stubborn unbelief, not circumcision

Acts 7:51 is calling stubborn unbelief spiritual uncircumcision.

You did say the covenant is only with Israel. This means that one must join Israel (become a Jew) to be saved. That is what the subverts of Acts 15 promoted.

Acts 15 is about wrongly requiring physical circumcision, not spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29).

The law failed in this respect and was proven to be faulty. Even if it was because of the hearer. It did not accomplish its goal in this respect. It simply did not establish an individual’s righteousness. And neither does spiritual circumcision.

Spiritual circumcision does establish one's righteousness (Colossians 2:11).

Since there is no Jew in Christ, how is there an Israel? No Jew - no Israel. Gal 3:28

Galatians 3:28 means that there is no distinction between physical Jews and physical Gentiles with regard to salvation (Acts 10:34-45). But saved physical Jews are still called Jews (Acts 22:3) and saved physical Gentiles are still called Gentiles (Romans 16:4).

Both saved physical Jews and saved physical Gentiles are Jews in spirit (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11). Both saved physical Jews and saved physical Gentiles are Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Rom 2:29 is addressing Jewish Christians only

Romans 2:29 is referring to both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians (Romans 2:26, Colossians 2:11, Philippians 3:3).

... when a person becomes a Christian, their character (heart) is changed and in that context cuts off sin or becomes circumcised from sin.

Amen (Colossians 2:11), that is the spiritual circumcision that all Christians undergo (Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29).

... 'fellowcitizens ' of Eph 2:19 is also a figurative term meaning fellow Christians, not citizens of or in Israel.

Ephesians 2:12,19 means that Christian Gentiles are now fellowcitizens in Israel with Christian Jews (Romans 11:1,17,24, Galatians 3:29).

We are heirs and seed of Abraham of not Israel (Gal 3:29).

The seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29) is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1, 2 Chronicles 20:7).

Where do you get the idea that the new covenant is only made with the Jews?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 says that the New Covenant is made only with Israel.

There is a noted difference from sheep not of ‘this fold’ and ‘one fold.’

The sheep "not of this fold" (John 10:16) are the elect Gentiles, who by faith are brought into "this fold" of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so that all believers, both physical Jews and physical Gentiles, become "one fold" (John 10:16), which is the one body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Are you saying that the bride of Christ is a wall of a great city upon which the names of the twelve tribes are etched?

The literal city of New Jerusalem is called the bride of Christ because its form pictures the form of the church (Revelation 21:9-12).

... why are Jews also graft into the olive tree, if it is Israel?

Believing Jews are grafted back into their own olive tree (Romans 11:24), which is Israel, because they previously had been cut off while they were unbelievers (Romans 11:20).

I think that Romans 3:2 tempers John 4:22 very well. It says ‘that unto them were committed the oracles of God.’

The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is part of the oracles of God (Romans 3:2).

Salvation is thru Jesus

Salvation is through Jesus (John 3:16) through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22).

 

[WailingWall]

But what of those who are specifically called "the lost sheep of Israel?" They can't be Israel proper, for it wasn't lost, and it can't refer to the Gentiles, for they are not Israel, whether lost or not.

I believe the lost sheep of Israel to be the remnant of the 10 scattered tribes. They were scattered amoung the gentiles. I believe Jesus was speaking of those people. If all the Jews accepted Jesus as the Christ and was thought of as an extention of the Jewish faith, i doubt if any of those lost sheep would have even read a word out of the bible. If they didnt feel they were Jewish, why would they bother?