Shadowboxing

[JimB]

We just observed the National Day of Prayer in our city and there was a lot of hoopla surrounding it trying to get Christians down to the courthouse to show the world we believed in prayer. Eighty people showed up. The organizers are discouraged and it is evidence to them that our nation is going to hell in a hand basket (although that should not be a secret to any of us) and that the church is apathetic. I (as one who did not participate in the rally) disagree.

My reason: so much of what we do as Christian is nothing more than symbolic shadow boxing. We stage protests, write the editor, go to rallies, shout at the devil, quote scriptures, do “Jericho marches” around church auditoriums, march around acreage to “claim it for God”, anoint building with oil, etc.etc.etc.

A lot of what we do is just symbolic stuff that makes us feel good about “doing something” and we think the devil is impressed but, IMO, I think he is happy to see us shadowbox because when we do we are wasting our energy fighting shadows of him and not his real self. Christians gathering to do public “prayer” on a courthouse square may say something to the community but it does little to push back the kingdom of darkness. Maybe the devil smiles when we rally the troops at the courthouse confronting shadows of him because at least we are not on the frontline really confronting him.

What do you think?

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

 

[Deba]

Shadowboxing. That is exactly what it is when we copy the methods of the world and then try to convince ourselves and others that we are doing something spiritual.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Doesn't even sound like shadowboxing.
Shadowboxing is useful, all that other stuff you mentioned sounded like a big waste of time.

It's simple, live like Jesus.

- Get rid of sin by making small groups where people can confess and fight sin in a practical way, none of this "Oh God just take away the temptation."

- Once sin is gone then a person will be more useful to go into the community to help others in need.

Why is it I have never seen a Church in America say "Do you need help with your yard work(for whatever reason, too old, injured)?"
"Does anyone here have time to help these people who need help with their yardwork? Roof? Broken down car? Workout program? Diet? Quit smoking?"

You get the idea, things get done when we work together in a practical way.
It seems that unless a Christian can say a prayer, they don't want to be bothered.

A church like that would be over flowing with believers.
Strangers who never believed would say "Now I want to be apart of that!"

So simple.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

We just observed the National Day of Prayer in our city and there was a lot of hoopla surrounding it trying to get Christians down to the courthouse to show the world we believed in prayer. Eighty people showed up. The organizers are discouraged and it is evidence to them that our nation is going to hell in a hand basket (although that should not be a secret to any of us) and that the church is apathetic. I (as one who did not participate in the rally) disagree.

My reason: so much of what we do as Christian is nothing more than symbolic shadow boxing. We stage protests, write the editor, go to rallies, shout at the devil, quote scriptures, do “Jericho marches” around church auditoriums, march around acreage to “claim it for God”, anoint building with oil, etc.etc.etc.

A lot of what we do is just symbolic stuff that makes us feel good about “doing something” and we think the devil is impressed but, IMO, I think he is happy to see us shadowbox because when we do we are wasting our energy fighting shadows of him and not his real self. Christians gathering to do public “prayer” on a courthouse square may say something to the community but it does little to push back the kingdom of darkness. Maybe the devil smiles when we rally the troops at the courthouse confronting shadows of him because at least we are not on the frontline really confronting him.

What do you think?

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

I understand what you're saying. Do you have any suggestions as to what could be done instead?

 

[STRICTLY SCRIPTURE]

We just observed the National Day of Prayer in our city and there was a lot of hoopla surrounding it trying to get Christians down to the courthouse to show the world we believed in prayer. Eighty people showed up. The organizers are discouraged and it is evidence to them that our nation is going to hell in a hand basket (although that should not be a secret to any of us) and that the church is apathetic. I (as one who did not participate in the rally) disagree.

My reason: so much of what we do as Christian is nothing more than symbolic shadow boxing. We stage protests, write the editor, go to rallies, shout at the devil, quote scriptures, do “Jericho marches” around church auditoriums, march around acreage to “claim it for God”, anoint building with oil, etc.etc.etc.

A lot of what we do is just symbolic stuff that makes us feel good about “doing something” and we think the devil is impressed but, IMO, I think he is happy to see us shadowbox because when we do we are wasting our energy fighting shadows of him and not his real self. Christians gathering to do public “prayer” on a courthouse square may say something to the community but it does little to push back the kingdom of darkness. Maybe the devil smiles when we rally the troops at the courthouse confronting shadows of him because at least we are not on the frontline really confronting him.

What do you think?

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

Sounds like what the dominionist movement does with "spiritual warfare" practices. Putting stakes in the ground, chanting repitiously binding and loosing. They are trying to Christianize the world before Jesus comes back. But His kingdom is not of this world.

 

[probinson]

Jim, I don't often agree with you, so when I see something I do agree with you on, I like to seize the moment.

I thought you might like to read something I wrote at the beginning of this year on this very topic.
______________________

The devil has deceived many. He's created the mindset that if you "don't vote the right way", or if you won't protest, that you're apathetic. It is, perhaps, one of the greatest successful deceptions the devil has pulled off in our time. Many Christians have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.

In fact, by being driven by what they oppose, many Christians have forgotten Jesus' words that we would be known by our Love. The devil has convinced people that they're just "doing what Jesus would do", when anyone who takes only a cursory look at Jesus' life and ministry here on earth can see that nothing could be further from the Truth.

The devil has convinced many that by being driven by hate and fear, they are "standing up for what is right". It's a horrendous, abominable lie, and one that is enabling Satan's greater encroachment into our society by the very people who are trying to stop it.

The devil has made people forget that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. The devil has deceived people into believing that the weapons that we are to use are weak. The devil has succeeded in his deception in making people forget that God's Kingdom is not of this world.

30+ years of Christian political activism has accomplished nothing. Many Christians have successfully become their biggest obstacle to proclaiming the Gospel (GOOD news). Many Christians' Love is waxing colder and colder as lawlessness increases, just like Jesus said it would, but the deception is so great that many don't even realize it.

Because of the deception, many Christians have forgotten that greater is HE that is in us than he that is in the world. Because of deception, pride, haughtiness, and arrogance has crept into the church, under the deceptive guise of "Truth".

Yes, Satan has deceived many. But the good news is, God is awakening a new generation of believers of all ages and beliefs, who are disregarding the fear-mongering and hate-filled words of those well-meaning saints that have been deceived, and are instead hearkening to the words of Jesus, that we are to be known by our Love.
______________________

 

[Watchman4hm]

Paul told us about this very thing..Read the whole chapter..Its about the race of life we are called to...

1Corinthians 9:26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway .

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Jim, I don't often agree with you, so when I see something I do agree with you on, I like to seize the moment.

I thought you might like to read something I wrote at the beginning of this year on this very topic.
______________________

The devil has deceived many. He's created the mindset that if you "don't vote the right way", or if you won't protest, that you're apathetic. It is, perhaps, one of the greatest successful deceptions the devil has pulled off in our time. Many Christians have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.

In fact, by being driven by what they oppose, many Christians have forgotten Jesus' words that we would be known by our Love. The devil has convinced people that they're just "doing what Jesus would do", when anyone who takes only a cursory look at Jesus' life and ministry here on earth can see that nothing could be further from the Truth.

The devil has convinced many that by being driven by hate and fear, they are "standing up for what is right". It's a horrendous, abominable lie, and one that is enabling Satan's greater encroachment into our society by the very people who are trying to stop it.

The devil has made people forget that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. The devil has deceived people into believing that the weapons that we are to use are weak. The devil has succeeded in his deception in making people forget that God's Kingdom is not of this world.

30+ years of Christian political activism has accomplished nothing. Many Christians have successfully become their biggest obstacle to proclaiming the Gospel (GOOD news). Many Christians' Love is waxing colder and colder as lawlessness increases, just like Jesus said it would, but the deception is so great that many don't even realize it.

Because of the deception, many Christians have forgotten that greater is HE that is in us than he that is in the world. Because of deception, pride, haughtiness, and arrogance has crept into the church, under the deceptive guise of "Truth".

Yes, Satan has deceived many. But the good news is, God is awakening a new generation of believers of all ages and beliefs, who are disregarding the fear-mongering and hate-filled words of those well-meaning saints that have been deceived, and are instead hearkening to the words of Jesus, that we are to be known by our Love.
______________________

AMEN!

 

[gennaoanothen]

I just pray in my closet, don't need to go to a courthouse or whatever.
I pray for the salvation of those in my community, and ask God to draw them.
The results are very tangible, even the pastor has made a comment about the people coming forward.
Those of us that pray, just continue to pray, wherever we are.

 

[Svt4Him]

30+ years of Christian political activism has accomplished nothing? Really? Maybe it's different in the States, but here in Canada we have an amazing amount of freedom compared to the rest of the world. We don't worry about where our next meal will come from, we don't worry about being prosecuted for going to church, we don't worry about not being able to find a Bible to read. Seems to me that when we talk about the prayers of the saints accounting for nothing, we either think little of prayer, little of God, or little of His saints or the power of prayer. So from my point of view, if people wanted to get together and pray, you are welcome to come to my area, we value prayer here. Our courthouse and city hall are right across the street from my work, so feel free to come 'shadowbox' at my place of employment as well.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

30+ years of Christian political activism has accomplished nothing? Really? Maybe it's different in the States, but here in Canada we have an amazing amount of freedom compared to the rest of the world. We don't worry about where our next meal will come from, we don't worry about being prosecuted for going to church, we don't worry about not being able to find a Bible to read. Seems to me that when we talk about the prayers of the saints accounting for nothing, we either think little of prayer, little of God, or little of His saints or the power of prayer. So from my point of view, if people wanted to get together and pray, you are welcome to come to my area, we value prayer here. Our courthouse and city hall are right across the street from my work, so feel free to come 'shadowbox' at my place of employment as well.

I don't think that it's necessarily the "praying" that is the issue but (for me anyway) the political soapbox that seems to come along tagged as "prayer". I like to pray, I just don't like spending more time talking about the horridness and all the details of this and that and everyone fretting over the bad news and "whatever are we gonna do" if God does not do things they way they, in their prayer instruction are wanting us to tell Him to do.

If Canada does not have those issues, what do you feel the Canadian believers have done that those here have not?

 

[probinson]

30+ years of Christian political activism has accomplished nothing? Really? Maybe it's different in the States, but here in Canada we have an amazing amount of freedom compared to the rest of the world. We don't worry about where our next meal will come from, we don't worry about being prosecuted for going to church, we don't worry about not being able to find a Bible to read. Seems to me that when we talk about the prayers of the saints accounting for nothing, we either think little of prayer, little of God, or little of His saints or the power of prayer.

Political activism != prayers of the saints.

 

[Svt4Him]

Wasn't the op about a group of people praying during the day of prayer, and then I quoted you in my response? Sorry, I assumed your post was in regards and response to the op, and you are correct that I made that assumption.

I don't think that it's necessarily the "praying" that is the issue but (for me anyway) the political soapbox that seems to come along tagged as "prayer". I like to pray, I just don't like spending more time talking about the horridness and all the details of this and that and everyone fretting over the bad news and "whatever are we gonna do" if God does not do things they way they, in their prayer instruction are wanting us to tell Him to do.

If Canada does not have those issues, what do you feel the Canadian believers have done that those here have not?

Why is it that a group who came together to pray has now turned into a group that has these issues? I have never ever been to a meeting like the one you just described on the day of prayer. So I submit again, that if the people the OP is talking about want to come pray in my town, they are always welcome. As for what Canadian believers have done, I don't think they've done anything different, but I don't think saying they are ineffective is quite right, I have to believe God when He says He hears those prayers, and is in the midst of those believers.

Funny thing about church though, if it is to be called a house of prayer, how many churches would fit that description, and could it be because we seem to minimize the impact or imporance of prayer?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Wasn't the op about a group of people praying during the day of prayer, and then I quoted you in my response? Sorry, I assumed your post was in regards and response to the op, and you are correct that I made that assumption.

Sorry, I'm not understanding you here. But that's ok.

Why is it that a group who came together to pray has now turned into a group that has these issues? I have never ever been to a meeting like the one you just described on the day of prayer. So I submit again, that if the people the OP is talking about want to come pray in my town, they are always welcome. As for what Canadian believers have done, I don't think they've done anything different, but I don't think saying they are ineffective is quite right, I have to believe God when He says He hears those prayers, and is in the midst of those believers.

Funny thing about church though, if it is to be called a house of prayer, how many churches would fit that description, and could it be because we seem to minimize the impact or imporance of prayer?

I agree that the prayers of the saints are not worthless, ever. I know I should probably pray more.

In the scriptures we see demonstrations of people praying alone but I'm not sure that we see it happening in groups. I know on what is oft referred to as The day of Penticost they were together in one room, in one accord and the Holy Spirit came upon them in a mighty way. They were not gathered though for a "prayer meeting". They were there for Shavuot.

Anyway, does anyone know of any examples in scripture where they gathered in groups purposely to pray? They must be there. Just nothing is coming to mind at the moment.

 

[imperfectchristian]

We just observed the National Day of Prayer in our city and there was a lot of hoopla surrounding it trying to get Christians down to the courthouse to show the world we believed in prayer. Eighty people showed up. The organizers are discouraged and it is evidence to them that our nation is going to hell in a hand basket (although that should not be a secret to any of us) and that the church is apathetic. I (as one who did not participate in the rally) disagree.

My reason: so much of what we do as Christian is nothing more than symbolic shadow boxing. We stage protests, write the editor, go to rallies, shout at the devil, quote scriptures, do “Jericho marches” around church auditoriums, march around acreage to “claim it for God”, anoint building with oil, etc.etc.etc.

A lot of what we do is just symbolic stuff that makes us feel good about “doing something” and we think the devil is impressed but, IMO, I think he is happy to see us shadowbox because when we do we are wasting our energy fighting shadows of him and not his real self. Christians gathering to do public “prayer” on a courthouse square may say something to the community but it does little to push back the kingdom of darkness. Maybe the devil smiles when we rally the troops at the courthouse confronting shadows of him because at least we are not on the frontline really confronting him.

What do you think?

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

I think in a very real way many church goers are too busy trying to be Christians to have time to love and be in fellowship and relationship with the people around them.

I believe the parallels to gardening and farming in Scripture exmplify the way we are suppose to live our lives...that is we should live it right where we are and stop trying to be something we are not and instead be what God made us to be in the first place.

 

[Svt4Him]

Sorry, I'm not understanding you here. But that's ok.

Sorry, that was to Pete's post.

I agree that the prayers of the saints are not worthless, ever. I know I should probably pray more.

In the scriptures we see demonstrations of people praying alone but I'm not sure that we see it happening in groups. I know on what is oft referred to as The day of Penticost they were together in one room, in one accord and the Holy Spirit came upon them in a mighty way. They were not gathered though for a "prayer meeting". They were there for Shavuot.

Anyway, does anyone know of any examples in scripture where they gathered in groups purposely to pray? They must be there. Just nothing is coming to mind at the moment.

So if it is Biblical, then it should be encouraged, not discouraged or called worthless. Jesus said His house, the church, should be called a house of prayer. It is not the individuals, it's the church. But lets see:

Ezra: 10that they may offer sacrifices of sweet aroma to the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king and his sons.


13Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16£Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, (except I guess on the day of prayer)

For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding

And this also we pray, that you may be made complete.

Now I know that some may be commands that 'we all pray' without it meaning together, but there are clearly cases where it is a group.

[SIZE=+1][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+0]Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=+1][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+0]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Child-of-Zion]

I like this thread.

The devil has deceived many. He's created the mindset that if you "don't vote the right way", or if you won't protest, that you're apathetic. It is, perhaps, one of the greatest successful deceptions the devil has pulled off in our time. Many Christians have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.

In fact, by being driven by what they oppose, many Christians have forgotten Jesus' words that we would be known by our Love. The devil has convinced people that they're just "doing what Jesus would do", when anyone who takes only a cursory look at Jesus' life and ministry here on earth can see that nothing could be further from the Truth.

The devil has convinced many that by being driven by hate and fear, they are "standing up for what is right". It's a horrendous, abominable lie, and one that is enabling Satan's greater encroachment into our society by the very people who are trying to stop it.

The devil has made people forget that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. The devil has deceived people into believing that the weapons that we are to use are weak. The devil has succeeded in his deception in making people forget that God's Kingdom is not of this world.

30+ years of Christian political activism has accomplished nothing. Many Christians have successfully become their biggest obstacle to proclaiming the Gospel (GOOD news). Many Christians' Love is waxing colder and colder as lawlessness increases, just like Jesus said it would, but the deception is so great that many don't even realize it.

Because of the deception, many Christians have forgotten that greater is HE that is in us than he that is in the world. Because of deception, pride, haughtiness, and arrogance has crept into the church, under the deceptive guise of "Truth".

Yes, Satan has deceived many. But the good news is, God is awakening a new generation of believers of all ages and beliefs, who are disregarding the fear-mongering and hate-filled words of those well-meaning saints that have been deceived, and are instead hearkening to the words of Jesus, that we are to be known by our Love.

I couldn't agree more. The sad fact is that if you take 100 random people on the street and ask them what Christian stand against, they will most likely be able to name things right away. But asking them what Christians stand for? Probably tolerance and hypocrisy would be some of the top responses on the list.

The solution starts like someone said; in small groups of believers living for each other, with each other (not in a home necessarily, but going through life with them), confessing, repenting, rinse and repeat. We will never be perfect. That's why we so desperately need one another to bear each other's burdens. (Galatians 6 and Romans 12)

I do not believe that we will have true unity in the body until the concept of a church is drastically changed. What does it mean to 'go to church'? We are the church. How can we worship God on Sunday but ignore Him the rest of the week? This is not worship in Spirit and truth (John 4:24). The letters to the churches in Revelation were addressed to specific cities. Not church buildings. When we start thinking in terms of the church of LA, California, the church of Miami, Florida, the church of Cincinnati, Ohio... when entire cities are living in unity as a single body and not just a collection of hundreds of different denominations... then we will begin to see unity like we should. But a house divided itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25). The church needs to come together. And it starts when two or more are gathered in His name and believe God to mend His body on earth.

 

[probinson]

Here is an excerpt from an excellent blog post by Phil Vischer, creator of VeggieTales, on this topic.

...For an entire generation of Americans, Christians have become defined by what we are against. By what we hate. By whom we oppose. Jesus’ call that we would be known “by our love” has been lost in our generation. Even more concerningly, this 30 year focus has left us very clear on how we are supposed to vote, but very unclear on how we are supposed to live. And the results are striking. Conservative Christians in America divorce at the same rate as the general population. We use internet porn at the same rate as the general population. We long for the same houses, the same cars, the same vacations. We are, research has shown, statistically identical.

We hail a film like “The Passion of the Christ,” calling it “the biggest evangelism opportunity in 2000 years.” And our neighbors watch the film, drawn by the celebrity of the filmmaker and, most likely, pure curiosity. And while the story engages them, when they leave the theater and look at us – the Christians down the street – they see we are no happier than they are. We’re pursuing the same materialistic fixes. Going just as deeply into debt to inflate our lifestyle. “Whatever they got from following this Jesus doesn’t seem to do any good. They’re no happier than we are.”

So an amazing film about Jesus attracts everyone’s interest, and, research will later show, accomplishes nothing. Why? Because the world doesn’t learn about God by watching Christian movies. The world learns about God by watching Christians. And we Christians are failing to show the world the love of God. We've failed to make an invisible God visible. We’ve shown them cranky Christians. Politically-savvy Christians. Market-driven Christians. Ambitous Christians. What we haven’t shown them, are loving Christians. And since Jesus said they would “know you by your love,” I think it’s safe to say the world doesn’t know what a Christian is. And sometimes I suspect we don’t either...

Source: Business and Ministry (Pulling Back the Curtain - Part 2) |

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

I posted a similar thread to this almost two years ago: Stand Up or Sit Down?

I completely agree with what you are saying, Jim. We need to be on our knees in prayer, and realize that the only way to affect change is by reaching out to those who are lost.

The early church wasn't strengthened by political positions or movements. It was strengthened by prayer, the preaching of the Gospel, and by the Salvation of the lost.

 

[JEBrady]

Any excuse to get together to pray is a good one, if you ask me. I don't put my hope in politics or a "show of force". That's the world's way.

But if a bunch of Christians get together and pray corporately then it's going to be effective. I can see God using something like this to do some good, but in the final analysis the emphasis is unbiblical if we're trying to show somebody something. Prayer is way more powerful than that. It's almost as if the church has no clue how powerful prayer is. A national day of prayer is just...wrong. We should be praying daily for this sort of thing. One day a year ain't gonna get it.