Shadow of the mark

[robycop3]

But you have special knowledge, correct?

No. I have shelves of history books.

What do YOU have that says they've happened?

 

[Hammster]

Please show us.

Yes, I know Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed, no one doubts that, but please show us when the beast ruled most of the world & committed the AOD in the temple, tell us who the miracle-working false prophet was, when the great trib hit the whole world, & when Jesus physically, visibly returned, seen by all.

Most of the world, or the whole world? Be specific.

 

[Hammster]

No. I have shelves of history books.

What do YOU have that says they've happened?

So history books mention that microchips are the mark of the beast? Are they books from the future?

 

[Taodeching]

You're simply wrong about not taking most of it as literal. Just look at world conditions, & recent events. The Jews have a sovereign nation again, with Jerusalem as its capital.

Been that way for quite a while and it past the 40 year mark for futurist, so that doesn't work for your side anymore.

Sin is rampant, with worldwide acceptance of LBGTQ, etc. as the new normal & fornication commonplace.

Sin has always been rampant in every age that is nothing new and everyone thinks their time is the end. Happened in the past and it is not worldwide just in the west right now. Your western bias is showing, where if it happens in my area it is happening everywhere which it s not.

We're moving toward a cashless & even cardless society with cryptocurrency, etc.

If I have a penny for every time I heard that I would be a multimillionaire or multi-billionaire, it just isn't going to happen. I heard it when Credit cards became a thing, when ATM cards became a thing, when you could use Apple pay, and not the crazy conspiracy is cryptocurrency. When the next thing comes along there will be crazy conspiracies about that too.

Many "Worship" services have become entertainment events.

I have heard that many evangelical services are like that but that has nothing to do with the end of the world. I and many others go o solemn services and Masses, not at all like you think.

I don't know if, beyond a doubt, the mark will be a MC or not, but the tech exists now for it to be.

I am in the tech sector and I can tell you that is an evangelical myth brought on by hysteria of taking things to literal and using bad interpretation. This type of thing you described has been said for ages and nothing comes of it. We are a long long way from any microchip being able to be implanted in a person. The bod would see such a thing as a foreign object and start dissolving it as was shown in the show myth busters,

The "apocalypse" hasn't yet occurred, so it wasn't for John's time.

The proper title of Revelation is The Apocalypse of St. John and it doesn't mean end times as some evangelicals want it to, it does mean a disclosure of great events and St. John was doing just that. So f really believe the Bible was inspired by Gd then your saying God purposely lied when He had St. John write "these things which much shortly come to pass". Shortly does not mean in two thousand or more years no matter how you evangelicals spin it

My assertions are based on Scripture and history. Yours are based on opinion & guesswork.

No your ideas are your own not based in reality but learned and parroted. I use to be like you until I broke that cycle and realized evangelicalism lied to me. I don't have to have guesswork I can look at the text and understand short means just that you have to spin it to mean a long time. I understand that the letter wasn't written to modern man but to early Christians undergoing very heavy persecution. Revelations in a book of discipline and a book of hope for those early Christians it is only modern evangelicals whom take the book out of it's context and plop it down into modern ideas and headlines.

 

[Timtofly]

Perhaps you disagree with the idea that the eschatological language of the biblical writers was not planetary. Well, I see no evidence against it. Do you have any?

I do not see where Scripture calls earth a planet. Pretty sure people knew about each other across the earth, at least where people were, and no really remote places, in the first century. I think some places on earth are more remote today, than 1991 years ago. Can I prove that? No, and really see no need to.

At the opening of the 6th Seal all the earth is going to come back as one, with no division at all. It will be drastic, and that is why the end was not in the first century, no matter what evidence Preterist historically can prove happened. The Second Coming is future, and all will know exactly when it happens.

 

[Timtofly]

The apocalypse itself says it will happen soon. Not 2,000 years later. I am not sure why you ignore it.

Until those 2000 years dawn upon you. It will always be sooner than later.

 

[trophy33]

Until those 2000 years dawn upon you. It will always be sooner than later.

The text is addressed to the first church. The word "soon" is written to them, not to you.

 

[trophy33]

I do not see where Scripture calls earth a planet. Pretty sure people knew about each other across the earth, at least where people were, and no really remote places, in the first century. I think some places on earth are more remote today, than 1991 years ago. Can I prove that? No, and really see no need to.

At the opening of the 6th Seal all the earth is going to come back as one, with no division at all. It will be drastic, and that is why the end was not in the first century, no matter what evidence Preterist historically can prove happened. The Second Coming is future, and all will know exactly when it happens.

I am not sure what you are saying. We are talking about whether the word "world" must mean the whole planet or just the known world for Jews, i.e. roughly the Roman Empire. I.e. whether the beast is prophecised to rule over the whole planet or only over the world of Jews lived in.

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Lk 2:2

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
R 1:8

[gospel]...which has come to you, just as in all the world also
Col 1:6

Bible says:
1. The whole world was taxed by Augustus
2. The faith of the church in Rome in Paul's times was reported over the whole world.
3. The gospel was in Paul's times spread to the whole world.

Can you define for me what the world means, in these verses? Is Norway included? Australia? Canada? Brasil? JAR? China? India? Japan?

And if these countries/parts of the planet are not included, then why do you believe "the whole world" in Revelation must be global and not the 1st century world.

 

[trophy33]

OK, please show us from history when it happened.

I already did, you simply do not want to read the links and repeat the request again and again, instead.

 

[trophy33]

We are a long long way from any microchip being able to be implanted in a person. The bod would see such a thing as a foreign object and start dissolving it as was shown in the show myth busters,

This is not actually true, many people have microchips in their body. You can buy it, included application. And of course, many animals have it too. For example some EU countries have a law that every dog must be chipped. And I am certain that many farm animals must be chipped too.

The chip of course does not dissolve. Its there the whole life.

 

[Timtofly]

The text is addressed to the first church. The word "soon" is written to them, not to you.

After 1900 years it is certainly sooner, not later. There is only one church, no? The church is still the first church. If you mean the 7 churches are in some type of order, is that being dispensational?

 

[trophy33]

After 1900 years it is certainly sooner, not later. There is only one church, no? The church is still the first church. If you mean the 7 churches are in some type of order, is that being dispensational?

You are terribly complicating the simple meaning of the text.

If somebody came to you and said that soon there will be a famine, would you naturally think the famine will occur 2,000 years after your death? Of course not. So why are you doing it with the text?

 

[Timtofly]

I am not sure what you are saying. We are talking about whether the word "world" must mean the whole planet or just the known world for Jews, i.e. roughly the Roman Empire. I.e. whether the beast is prophecised to rule over the whole planet or only over the world of Jews lived in.

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Lk 2:2

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
R 1:8

[gospel]...which has come to you, just as in all the world also
Col 1:6

Bible says:
1. The whole world was taxed by Augustus
2. The faith of the church in Rome in Paul's times was reported over the whole world.
3. The gospel was in Paul's times spread to the whole world.

Can you define for me what the world means, in these verses? Is Norway included? Australia? Canada? Brasil? JAR? China? India? Japan?

And if these countries/parts of the planet are not included, then why do you believe "the whole world" in Revelation must be global and not the 1st century world.

Rome is no longer in charge. The world will get smaller and closer together than in 70AD, by the time this beast is unleashed on the earth.

The church will be gone at the Second Coming before that happens as well. Nero was not even in Jerusalem around or near 70AD. Is the beast going to be based out of Rome, Jerusalem, or the church in Ephesus?

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Even if this is merely figurative, how would you describe all the governments being moved out-of their places?

I take it literally, because Christ/God divided the world in judgment, and since Christ will now be in charge, He will bring the earth back into one whole continent and rule. I think there will still be ethnic division, because I think Egypt is a named Nation even after the Second Coming. But will hold off total speculation until it actually happens.

 

[trophy33]

Rome is no longer in charge. The world will get smaller and closer together than in 70AD, by the time this beast is unleashed on the earth.

The church will be gone at the Second Coming before that happens as well. Nero was not even in Jerusalem around or near 70AD. Is the beast going to be based out of Rome, Jerusalem, or the church in Ephesus?

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Even if this is merely figurative, how would you describe all the governments being moved out-of their places?

I take it literally, because Christ/God divided the world in judgment, and since Christ will now be in charge, He will bring the earth back into one whole continent and rule. I think there will still be ethnic division, because I think Egypt is a named Nation even after the Second Coming. But will hold off total speculation until it actually happens.

The New Testament (including the book of Revelation) was written in the first century.

Can you tell me what the word "world" meant in the texts I posted? Which countries or parts of the planet? We cannot move further without that.

 

[Timtofly]

You are terribly complicating the simple meaning of the text.

If somebody came to you and said that soon there will be a famine, would you naturally think the famine will occur 2,000 years after your death? Of course not. So why are you doing it with the text?

I am not doing "anything" to the text. I am pointing out it is 1900+ years later.

If someone told me a famine was soon and it never happened in my lifetime, I would not worry about it, or when it happened.

 

[trophy33]

If someone told me a famine was soon and it never happened in my lifetime, I would not worry about it, or when it happened.

Would you call such prediction/warning false?

 

[Timtofly]

The New Testament (including the book of Revelation) was written in the first century.

Can you tell me what the word "world" meant in the texts I posted? Which countries or parts of the planet? We cannot move further without that.

John wrote in the first century all islands and mountains would be moved out of their places. It does not matter the geography before the event happened. At the Second Coming the whole world, every single inch, is going to change and drastically. So what the world means then or now is not even relevant. Their "world" was the Roman Empire. They knew about India, so obviously India was part of their world, even if not part of the Roman Empire. North Africa was part of the Roman Empire. I don't think John meant the Mediterranean would cease to exist. Bringing Europe and Africa together. It may be changed. I don't think John meant only Greece would no longer be tiny Islands. I am pretty sure that whatever would drastically change Europe though would effect the entire earth. This change would effect the whole earth just like the Flood of Noah affected the whole earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Would you call such prediction/warning false?

No. How would I know when it happened if I was dead? Would I walk up to Jesus in Paradise and file a false prophecy complaint? I think that job is already taken by Satan day and night accusing the brethren.

 

[trophy33]

John wrote in the first century all islands and mountains would be moved out of their places. It does not matter the geography before the event happened. At the Second Coming the whole world, every single inch, is going to change and drastically. So what the world means then or now is not even relevant. Their "world" was the Roman Empire. They knew about India, so obviously India was part of their world, even if not part of the Roman Empire. North Africa was part of the Roman Empire. I don't think John meant the Mediterranean would cease to exist. Bringing Europe and Africa together. It may be changed. I don't think John meant only Greece would no longer be tiny Islands. I am pretty sure that whatever would drastically change Europe though would effect the entire earth. This change would effect the whole earth just like the Flood of Noah affected the whole earth.

Can you tell me why dont you take the word "soon" literally, but why do you take metaphors like "mountains will be moved" literally? Why do you use such strange rule to tell what is literal and what is not?

Because its only natural that the word "soon" is literal and "mountains will be moved" is metaphorical.

 

[trophy33]

No. How would I know when it happened if I was dead? Would I walk up to Jesus in Paradise and file a false prophecy complaint? I think that job is already taken by Satan day and night accusing the brethren.

So what is your solution, to change the beginning and the end of the book?