Shadow of the mark

[jgr]

futurism aint apostasy, & it's correct, as proven by the fact that the prophesied eschatological events haven't yet occurred. The inquisitions have nothing to do with that.

The inquisitions and futurism originated in the same apostate source.

Whom to believe?

1. God and His Reformers
or
2. Apostasy

Take your pick.

 

[robycop3]

The inquisitions and futurism originated in the same apostate source.

Whom to believe?

1. God and His Reformers
or
2. Apostasy

Take your pick.

Futurism.

 

[jgr]

Futurism.

AKA apostasy.

 

[robycop3]

AKA apostasy.

Wrong.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Nupe! How can not having a spiritual mark prevent anyone from buying or selling?

Is the following talking about buying and selling physical things?

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it— wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

Your carnal way of thinking (as opposed to spiritual) is preventing you from seeing what the mark of the beast is. It says all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). How can all whose names are not written in the book of life all get a physical mark of some kind? That isn't even reasonable.

It'll be a physical mark, again, most likely, some sorta implanted microchip that contains the bearer's personal info & all financial records, able to reveal one's bank balance & perform/record all the bearer's transactions. With the beast inpower, it'll be a cashless society.
I'm not saying you're a preterist, but one of their "escapes' from "inconvenient" Scriptures that prove their doctrine false is to reduce those Scriptures to figurative/symbolic status.

Clearly, much of the book of Revelation is figurative/symbolic. We disagree on how much, but obviously some of it is, at least. What do you have against figurative/symbolic text? Why does it bother you for something to be figurative/symbolic rather than literal and physical? It's not as if the figurative/symbolic text is fictional. It represents real things. So, I don't understand why you are so against the idea of the mark being a figurative and/or spiritual mark rather than physical. Do you think the seal of God is a physical seal of some kind? Scripture indicates that the seal of God is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

it's the right view, as the prophesied eschatological events obviously haven't happened yet.

Some happened in the past, some were happening at the time, some would be ongoing and some haven't happened yet. The idea that none of the prophesied events have happened or have started happening yet is completely ridiculous.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[robycop3]

Is the following talking about buying and selling physical things?

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it— wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

Your carnal way of thinking (as opposed to spiritual) is preventing you from seeing what the mark of the beast is. It says all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). How can all whose names are not written in the book of life all get a physical mark of some kind? That isn't even reasonable.

Clearly, much of the book of Revelation is figurative/symbolic. We disagree on how much, but obviously some of it is, at least. What do you have against figurative/symbolic text? Why does it bother you for something to be figurative/symbolic rather than literal and physical? It's not as if the figurative/symbolic text is fictional. It represents real things. So, I don't understand why you are so against the idea of the mark being a figurative and/or spiritual mark rather than physical. Do you think the seal of God is a physical seal of some kind? Scripture indicates that the seal of God is the Holy Spirit.

Remember, the beast isn't here yet. By the time he is, tech may have advanced enough to implant the device in a few seconds, and there'll likely be distribution centers everywhere, as almost all recipients of the mark will want it.
And economic control is almost as powerful as gunpoint control.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Remember, the beast isn't here yet. By the time he is, tech may have advanced enough to implant the device in a few seconds, and there'll likely be distribution centers everywhere, as almost all recipients of the mark will want it.
And economic control is almost as powerful as gunpoint control.

You didn't respond specifically to anything I said in my post. Why not? I'm not going to respond to you, either, if you don't think it's worth your time to address anything I say.

 

[robycop3]

Is the following talking about buying and selling physical things?
No.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it— wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

no.

Your carnal way of thinking (as opposed to spiritual) is preventing you from seeing what the mark of the beast is. It says all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). How can all whose names are not written in the book of life all get a physical mark of some kind? That isn't even reasonable.

No, the mark is about commerce, and following the beast.

Clearly, much of the book of Revelation is figurative/symbolic. We disagree on how much, but obviously some of it is, at least. What do you have against figurative/symbolic text?

When preterists try to make verses about literal things into symbolism because the event it mentions hasn't yet occurred.

Why does it bother you for something to be figurative/symbolic rather than literal and physical? It's not as if the figurative/symbolic text is fictional. It represents real things. So, I don't understand why you are so against the idea of the mark being a figurative and/or spiritual mark rather than physical. Do you think the seal of God is a physical seal of some kind? Scripture indicates that the seal of God is the Holy Spirit.

I've said before that God's seal is spiritual. However, the beast will be a man, so his mark will be physical. Once the mark is in place, the beast will exercise financial control over any who fail to do his bidding immediately & willingly. People will depend upon him for their daily bread insteada God.

 

[robycop3]

You didn't respond specifically to anything I said in my post. Why not? I'm not going to respond to you, either, if you don't think it's worth your time to address anything I say.

See the above post, # 1269.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No, the mark is about commerce, and following the beast.

What does commerce have to do with someone's spiritual allegiance?

When preterists try to make verses about literal things into symbolism because the event it mentions hasn't yet occurred.

Well, I'm not a preterist and, yet, you seem to have a problem when I interpret things symbolically, too. For no real good reason, it seems.

I've said before that God's seal is spiritual. However, the beast will be a man, so his mark will be physical. Once the mark is in place, the beast will exercise financial control over any who fail to do his bidding immediately & willingly. People will depend upon him for their daily bread insteada God.

You think one person can get all whose names are not written in the book of life to worship him? I don't find that to be reasonable at all. The beast WAS before John wrote the book of Revelation (Revelation 17:8). How can that refer to a man?

 

[Timtofly]

Nupe! How can not having a spiritual mark prevent anyone from buying or selling?
It'll be a physical mark, again, most likely, some sorta implanted microchip that contains the bearer's personal info & all financial records, able to reveal one's bank balance & perform/record all the bearer's transactions. With the beast inpower, it'll be a cashless society.
I'm not saying you're a preterist, but one of their "escapes' from "inconvenient" Scriptures that prove their doctrine false is to reduce those Scriptures to figurative/symbolic status.

They already make people paying cash wait for a single check out, while all others kiosks take only a credit card. At least many places around me that sell groceries. Stores seem to be handling cash less and less.

In some stores, even if the store has no power, you can even just do the actual transaction on your phone. You do not even need to "check out". The app on the phone works as a mobile register. So it is already with you wherever you go.

 

[Timtofly]

What does commerce have to do with someone's spiritual allegiance?

Nothing, as Satan is not a spiritual being, but physical. Satan will be physically in charge of commerce at this point. The mark though is physical and comes from God. When God removes a name from the Lamb's book of life is when the physical mark shows up to show they have been removed. That is when they are welcomed into Satan's economy.

How does one know to give themselves a mark if their name has been removed? Or do you think they get marked and then God removes their name? The mark is still physical, else no one else would know the point they are no longer named in the Lamb's book of life.

Well, I'm not a preterist and, yet, you seem to have a problem when I interpret things symbolically, too. For no real good reason, it seems.

Why interpret symbolism with more symbolism? Why turn a literal point into a symbolic point? Symbolism points to a literal point, not to more symbolism. And a literal point is already literal, thus not needing to be turned back into symbolism.

You think one person can get all whose names are not written in the book of life to worship him? I don't find that to be reasonable at all. The beast WAS before John wrote the book of Revelation (Revelation 17:8). How can that refer to a man?

The beast represents Satan's influence. I thought you accepted Satan has "been on a chain since the Cross". Satan's influence was, was not, and now back again. Satan has not been holding press conferences every decade to let people know he is still "calling the shots". Satan has not been bound in the pit either. He has been accusing the brethren night and day. He is still a roaring lion walking about stirring up trouble. Now there are redeemed in every nation. Before the Cross, not so much.

The whole point is that during Satan's 42 months, once one is removed from the Lamb's book of life, they will be physically marked, and every one will know who is who and on Satan's side. They will belong to Satan once marked. If marked and they still refuse to worship, Satan can still kill their physical body, but they still end up in the lake of fire.

 

[robycop3]

Some happened in the past, some were happening at the time, some would be ongoing and some haven't happened yet. The idea that none of the prophesied events have happened or have started happening yet is completely ridiculous.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I said "eschatological", not prophecies in general. The destruction of J & the temple were not eschatological events, that is, pertaining to the return of Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I said "eschatological", not prophecies in general. The destruction of J & the temple were not eschatological events, that is, pertaining to the return of Jesus.

I didn't say they were. You're not getting what I'm saying. I don't even believe that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are mentioned in the book of Revelation. Try to remember that I'm not a preterist. You don't have to be a preterist in order to disagree with your hyper-futurist beliefs.

I'm saying that the book of Revelation contains text about things that happened in the past from the time the book was written (such as Christ's birth and ascension being referenced in Revelation 12), things that were happening at the time (such as what is written in Revelation 2 and 3 regarding churches that existed at the time) and things that would occur from then on up until the future second coming of Christ and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth. You think the book is all (or almost all) only about future events. That is not the case.

For example, it speaks of the persecution of believers. John wrote about how the dragon (Satan) would be making war with those who believe in Christ (Rev 12:17). Why would you think that's only talking about the future when we know that's been going on for almost 2,000 years already?

 

[robycop3]

What does commerce have to do with someone's spiritual allegiance?

Those not allegiant to the beast won't take the mark & therefore be unable to participate in regular commerce, relying on a black market to survive.

Well, I'm not a preterist and, yet, you seem to have a problem when I interpret things symbolically, too. For no real good reason, it seems.

The reason is, they're LITERAL. No reason to believe they won't be.

You think one person can get all whose names are not written in the book of life to worship him? I don't find that to be reasonable at all.

We don't know how far tech will have advanced by the time the beast comes. Big Bro may have a lot more capability by then.

The beast WAS before John wrote the book of Revelation (Revelation 17:8). How can that refer to a man?

No, he wasn't. Daniel, Paul, and Rev all refer to a MAN. And he will be in power when Jesus returns, as Rev. 19 proves.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those not allegiant to the beast won't take the mark & therefore be unable to participate in regular commerce, relying on a black market to survive.

Things like the mark of the beast and the seal of God are spiritual in nature and reflect whether someone is loyal to the dragon (Satan) and the beast or to God/Christ. One's spiritual loyalty has nothing to do with what type of currency they use (or don't use).

Not being able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast has to do with not being able to freely preach what you believe without being against Christ and loyal to Satan instead.

I already showed you that buying and selling doesn't have to relate to the buying and selling of merchandise, but you don't want to even consider that.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it—wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

The reason is, they're LITERAL. No reason to believe they won't be.

No reason other than the fact that we're talking about text within a highly symbolic book. For whatever reason your default is to interpret everything within that highly symbolic book literally unless it slaps you in the face and tells you that it's symbolic.

We don't know how far tech will have advanced by the time the beast comes. Big Bro may have a lot more capability by then.

Loyalty to either Satan and the world or to God has nothing to do with advanced technology. It has to do with what is in people's hearts and what they do. The mark of the beast is said to either be in the forehead or the right hand because it relates to people's thoughts and beliefs (forehead) and their actions (right hand).

No, he wasn't. Daniel, Paul, and Rev all refer to a MAN. And he will be in power when Jesus returns, as Rev. 19 proves.

Tell me how this man "WAS" before John wrote the book of Revelation then.

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

 

[robycop3]

They already make people paying cash wait for a single check out, while all others kiosks take only a credit card. At least many places around me that sell groceries. Stores seem to be handling cash less and less.

In some stores, even if the store has no power, you can even just do the actual transaction on your phone. You do not even need to "check out". The app on the phone works as a mobile register. So it is already with you wherever you go.

The mark will be an implanted electronic gizmo, loss-proof & theft-proof.

 

[robycop3]

Things like the mark of the beast and the seal of God are spiritual in nature and reflect whether someone is loyal to the dragon (Satan) and the beast or to God/Christ. One's spiritual loyalty has nothing to do with what type of currency they use (or don't use).

Not being able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast has to do with not being able to freely preach what you believe without being against Christ and loyal to Satan instead.

I already showed you that buying and selling doesn't have to relate to the buying and selling of merchandise, but you don't want to even consider that.

Proverbs 23:Buy the truth and do not sell it—wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

No reason other than the fact that we're talking about text within a highly symbolic book. For whatever reason your default is to interpret everything within that highly symbolic book literally unless it slaps you in the face and tells you that it's symbolic.

Loyalty to either Satan and the world or to God has nothing to do with advanced technology. It has to do with what is in people's hearts and what they do. The mark of the beast is said to either be in the forehead or the right hand because it relates to people's thoughts and beliefs (forehead) and their actions (right hand).

Tell me how this man "WAS" before John wrote the book of Revelation then.

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

That beast refers to the empire the human beast will assemble from the peoples of the old Roman empires, events that were future to John, while the Roman empires are past to us.