Sex... losing a part of yourself!?!?

[[serious]]

It is a job for the parents but most parents are so broken they can't teach it.

well, by the logic of the example, the parents, by virtue of being parents, have been ripped in half.

 

[Sammy-San]

That's still pretty horrifying. Sex in no way makes someone less of a person, before or after marriage.

Isn't that true of all sins?

 

[Tetra]

Isn't that true of all sins?

If that was true, you'd hear people saying, "if you lie... you're giving a piece of yourself to that person."... also, what would the Biblical basis for this position be?

 

[Phil 1:21]

If simply reading Bible verses about abstinence was thoroughly effective, there’d be no pregnant girls at parochial schools. I can tell you that’s not the case. As adults we tend to forget that when you’re a teenager with raging hormones, “Because Jesus said so” may not be an adequate deterrent. Sometimes we need to think outside the box.

I knew a girl who got pregnant at 13. Seriously…13! If convincing her that green hobgoblins would eat her face off if she had premarital sex would have kept her out of her boyfriend’s bed, I’d be all for it. We can talk about how the OP example was geared toward girls instead of boys and wave the gender equality flag all day, but the fact is that girls suffer way, WAY more negative consequences for premarital sex than boys.

That’s not saying boys should be doing it either, so don’t go getting all frosty with me.

If a camp counselor did this with one of my daughters I wouldn’t be offended that he was “shaming her” or some other such “I am victim hear me roar” nonsense. I’d shake his hand and thank him for caring enough to help keep my daughter from making an enormous mistake that could change the course of her entire life. In this case, the results are more important than being offended by the process.

 

[Armoured]

If simply reading Bible verses about abstinence was thoroughly effective, there’d be no pregnant girls at parochial schools. I can tell you that’s not the case. As adults we tend to forget that when you’re a teenager with raging hormones, “Because Jesus said so” may not be an adequate deterrent. Sometimes we need to think outside the box.

I knew a girl who got pregnant at 13. Seriously…13! If convincing her that green hobgoblins would eat her face off if she had premarital sex would have kept her out of her boyfriend’s bed, I’d be all for it. We can talk about how the OP example was geared toward girls instead of boys and wave the gender equality flag all day, but the fact is that girls suffer way, WAY more negative consequences for premarital sex than boys.

That’s not saying boys should be doing it either, so don’t go getting all frosty with me.

If a camp counselor did this with one of my daughters I wouldn’t be offended that he was “shaming her” or some other such “I am victim hear me roar” nonsense. I’d shake his hand and thank him for caring enough to help keep my daughter from making an enormous mistake that could change the course of her entire life. In this case, the results are more important than being offended by the process.

Do you think it's possible to care for daughters without giving them unhealthy hangups about sex?

 

[Tetra]

If simply reading Bible verses about abstinence was thoroughly effective, there’d be no pregnant girls at parochial schools. I can tell you that’s not the case. As adults we tend to forget that when you’re a teenager with raging hormones, “Because Jesus said so” may not be an adequate deterrent. Sometimes we need to think outside the box.

I knew a girl who got pregnant at 13. Seriously…13! If convincing her that green hobgoblins would eat her face off if she had premarital sex would have kept her out of her boyfriend’s bed, I’d be all for it. We can talk about how the OP example was geared toward girls instead of boys and wave the gender equality flag all day, but the fact is that girls suffer way, WAY more negative consequences for premarital sex than boys.

That’s not saying boys should be doing it either, so don’t go getting all frosty with me.

If a camp counselor did this with one of my daughters I wouldn’t be offended that he was “shaming her” or some other such “I am victim hear me roar” nonsense. I’d shake his hand and thank him for caring enough to help keep my daughter from making an enormous mistake that could change the course of her entire life. In this case, the results are more important than being offended by the process.

Haha. I love how you assume shaming is effective.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Haha. I love how you assume shaming is effective.

I love how you assume it's not.

 

[Tetra]

I love how you assume it's not.

I'm inferring... and I think the stats regarding Christians remaining virgins might be in my favor. I'll do more research just in case though.

 

[David Schilling]

Still. This whole paper being ripped in half, while specifically in the bible, sets a good example. Because it says in the bible not to have sex before marriage. What this lesson is about is if you have sex with a person and then leave that person to do it with another person, you are basically in bed with every person that woman/man has been with and he/she is in bed with every person you've been with. Because you have a part of them with you, and they have a part of you, a part that once they have, can never be given back. My dad gave me a good analogy, love is like a velcro strip. The more you use it (the more you rip it and than stick it back) the less of a stick it has. Same with love, the more you stick to someone then rip away from them, the next love will become weaker and weaker. It will become less special

 

[Tetra]

Because you have a part of them with you, and they have a part of you, a part that once they have, can never be given back. My dad gave me a good analogy, love is like a velcro strip. The more you use it (the more you rip it and than stick it back) the less of a stick it has. Same with love, the more you stick to someone then rip away from them, the next love will become weaker and weaker. It will become less special

Says who? Where is this in the Bible??

 

[Owen GB5]

Do you lose part of yourself?
I know that we all remember the first time. What I would really like to know is whether two virgins actually do have a relationship on a diferent level, spiritual soul-mates, whatever (regardless of what they couldn't resist doing before they got married)?
Can we only have that level of intimacy with one other person (almost by definition)?

 

[ljglazner]

Now that said, I think it is the job of the parents, and not a pastor and the classmates to be teaching this to other children.

I disagree. I found, as a youth pastor, that I had to teach purity about every three months, because after that much time the "if it feels good do it" attitude of the schools permissive sexual mores had reprogrammed them to think sexual urges were not to be controlled. I don't know what the parents did, but those who listened to me and bought into the purity thing are the only ones I have met later that hadn't been divorced - so there is something to it. You may not agree with the method or the teacher, but you may not have a correct concept of the battle being waged for the mind and heart of our children.

 

[ljglazner]

Says who? Where is this in the Bible??

What the Bible says about it is that "every other sin is OUTSIDE THE BODY, but the sin of sexual immorality is inside." It affects your bodily responses in a permanent way.

 

[Tetra]

What the Bible says about it is that "every other sin is OUTSIDE THE BODY, but the sin of sexual immorality is inside." It affects your bodily responses in a permanent way.

Nope, it doesn't say "inside", it says the sin of sexual immorality is against yourself. 1 Cor. 6:18

... and this in no way shows that the whole concept being taught, and the concept I was questioning was remotely Biblical:

Because you have a part of them with you, and they have a part of you, a part that once they have, can never be given back. My dad gave me a good analogy, love is like a velcro strip. The more you use it (the more you rip it and than stick it back) the less of a stick it has. Same with love, the more you stick to someone then rip away from them, the next love will become weaker and weaker. It will become less special

 

[rturner76]

I can't speak for anybody else but I was thoroughly frightened of sex by my ninth grade health class's chapter on sex ed. They showed on the projector a penis in the later stages of syphilis or gonorrhea or some other STD involving pox of the genitals and I wanted nothing to do with any girl who had sex before me. Plus when I found out in the same class that herpes can spread even if a condom is used, it further increased my fears. However I did fonicate that same year with a girl I had known since 7th grade and was as sure as one could be about her purity. We took precautions and of course just knew it was okay because in a couple short years, we would be sixteen and our parents could emancipate us so we could get married.

Anyhoo, the things we learned about purity at the Lutheran school the year before we sincerely thought we were adhering to because we thought we were being with the person we were going to marry. the fact that we weren't married yet was just a formality. I think girls more than boys go for the philosophy of "but we're going to be together forever anyway" bit. Boys are more likely to use that as a line to get what they want though some believe it like I did.

After my first girlfriend, my mind was so focused on what I learned in health class, that when you sleep with someone, you have now slept with everyone they slept with and everyone who they slept with and so on to the point where I felt like I knew somebody with a past had to of had some disease, AIDS, herpes or something. When you add together all those people, the odds get greater and greater that someone is infected with something they can't get rid of. It kept me out of many a lady's bed chamber because I figures if they will give it to me,who else have they given it to?

The moral of all this is I think boys and girls learn best and abstain most when they know the facts. I think it should come from multiple sources because there are multiple reasons to abstain. The church will teach about morality more specifically piety. The school teaches hard facts, teenage pregnancy statistics, STD risks, and education about the reproductive system. Parents teach about all these things and more. Parents teach about what impact sex has on the way you look at life, what boys do to entice girls to give it up, how girls use it to get what they want. How to navigate sexual attraction and the mistakes people make in pursuit of sex and because of sex (Bill Clinton lol), what attributes to look for in a mate, who to stay away from, what kind of friends to keep close, how to navigate sticky situations and not be taken advantage of or to not take advantage of people, even just how to stay safe (did I say that already?) probably a million other things that I can't even think of, issues that arise and questions that get asked. Priests, Pastors and teachers have a lot of good advice and should be utilized in the battle against the flesh but it's the parents and the children's own character that will determine the success of abstinence education.

 

[Owen GB5]

This certainly stems from purity culture, which I highly disagree with. I don't understand things like purity rings and purity balls and what their purposes are, I think it's really weird.

We are not "pure" because we abstain from sex before marriage. Jesus said that if anyone lusts in their heart, then they are committing adultery, which means none of us are pure. We have all sinned, and premarital sex is no different. It's ridiculous to put people who don't have sex before marriage on a pedestal, and act like people who do are ruined and that they are "damaged goods".

That's not to say that premarital sex is okay, it's still a sin that people should not commit, but it is as forgivable as any other sin.

Aren't we confusing whether the sin of 'fornication' is as 'forgivable as any other sin' with the effect that it has on who we are and also on our future intimate relationship?

 

[SolomonVII]

Carnal knowledge can be very powerful and transformative. Just think about the extreme case of rape. It is something that the girl will never get over as long as she lives.
But sex does not have to be rape to be a powerful and life changing event. There is a tendency in secular society now to treat sex as an amusement, a form of entertainment, hook up here, hook up there, and move on.
Maybe there are some girls that don't feel cheapened by all of that.

But for the sake of those who will end up feeling cheapened, it is worthwhile having somebody teaching that alternate reality to the wisdom of the world, that sexuality is not a diversion, but a sacrament that lies at the heart of our being, and that wherever girls will lead on this, boys will follow.
For girls and women who are fulfilled by multiple partners and the hook up culture, obviously this message is not for them. But for those who will end up feeling used and like pieces of meat, then it is worthwhile that somebody is giving them, however clumsily, an alternative point of view, and letting them know that, in Christ, and in Christian marriage, there is another way to go.

 

[rturner76]

Carnal knowledge can be very powerful and transformative. Just think about the extreme case of rape. It is something that the girl will never get over as long as she lives.
But sex does not have to be rape to be a powerful and life changing event. There is a tendency in secular society now to treat sex as an amusement, a form of entertainment, hook up here, hook up there, and move on.
Maybe there are some girls that don't feel cheapened by all of that.

But for the sake of those who will end up feeling cheapened, it is worthwhile having somebody teaching that alternate reality to the wisdom of the world, that sexuality is not a diversion, but a sacrament that lies at the heart of our being, and that wherever girls will lead on this, boys will follow.
For girls and women who are fulfilled by multiple partners and the hook up culture, obviously this message is not for them. But for those who will end up feeling used and like pieces of meat, then it is worthwhile that somebody is giving them, however clumsily, an alternative point of view, and letting them know that, in Christ, and in Christian marriage, there is another way to go.

I totally and completely agree with this. I think this is the best way I've heard it explained. Because from my experience now being a little bit older and having female friends who are older and did "hook up" quite a bit when they were younger, they tell me and their adult children how doing that and hanging out in bars and the things that go with it seemed like a good time because everybody was doing it but it actually left them feeling empty andmanytimesused at the end of the day. However you would do it again to help yourself get over that feeling. You learn to not trust others and you don't learn how to form emotional bonds. Young adults need to hear about that before they make their choice.

 

[ljglazner]

Nope, it doesn't say "inside", it says the sin of sexual immorality is against yourself. 1 Cor. 6:18

... and this in no way shows that the whole concept being taught, and the concept I was questioning was remotely Biblical:

I was slow to respond because the real evidence of the loss of self from sexual promiscuity is seen in life more than in the Bible - but you only quoted half the passage. It says that every other sin is OUTSIDE of yourself, which strongly implies that this issue effects the INSIDE, and it does. Here is how it works. God has made sexual urges strong for most people. This strong urge is nearly undeniable. It was designed by God to be like that AFTER marriage, so God made it so that, as long as your goal is purity before marriage (which I defined for my kids as no inappropriate contentography and no romantic entanglement until you find the one you want to marry) then the sexual urges are distinctly easier to control and suppress. They only get crazy hard if you feed them - and they get harder and harder to control the more you feed them. Most people haven't learned this because the goal of most young people today (even many Christian youth) is to have as much sex as they can as early as they can ...so they don't notice that they are addicted.

 

[Paidiske]

It was designed by God to be like that AFTER marriage, so God made it so that, as long as your goal is purity before marriage (which I defined for my kids as no inappropriate contentography and no romantic entanglement until you find the one you want to marry) then the sexual urges are distinctly easier to control and suppress.

Out of curiosity, how did you manage the lack of romantic "entanglement"? Did you attempt a form of arranged marriage?