Sex... losing a part of yourself!?!?

Tetra

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I was having a conversation with my wife about an experience she had in youth group as a young lady. This activity in youth groups was all the rage in the early 90's.

She said the youth pastor would have the girls hold a piece of paper while boys, one by one, would come up and rip a piece off (odd how the boys don't hold the paper).

The youth pastor would then claim that by having sex, girls lose a "piece of themselves". Like, how each boy owned a piece of the paper.

Okay, not only is this story so freaking disturbing and disgusting to me, if it was my daughter that this happened to in the youth group, I can't image how I'd react.

Where the heck is this in the Bible??
 

HannahT

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In some circles they still do this type of thing. It's a scare tactic that is filled with shame. It's to instill the need for chastity, and for some reason BOYS don't tend to receive the same type of approach. Sadly, both genders are made to feel that they are used goods if they do slip.

Nothing wrong with the conversation overall, but not in this way. It's damaging.
 
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Tetra

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In some circles they still do this type of thing. It's a scare tactic that is filled with shame. It's to instill the need for chastity, and for some reason BOYS don't tend to receive the same type of approach. Sadly, both genders are made to feel that they are used goods if they do slip.

Nothing wrong with the conversation overall, but not in this way. It's damaging.
We (boys) tend to be shamed in different ways.

Question though, in those "circles", what is their Biblical evidence you "lose a piece of yourself"?
 
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HannahT

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I remember Elizabeth Smart, and how she described how she was taught that having sex outside marriage was like getting chewed like a piece of gum. Who would want you when you are old piece of chewed gum.

You can imagine the self image damage this does to a small child that was kidnapped, and raped.

Shamed filled messages tend to backfire. If people can't speak about their truth without it? It's not really truth is it?
 
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HannahT

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We (boys) tend to be shamed in different ways.

Question though, in those "circles", what is their Biblical evidence you "lose a piece of yourself"?

I realize that. I'm a bit older here, and in my generation there was WAY more focus on girls. They do focus on boys as well. Yet, your piece of paper example? It's the same thing.

I don't think they have evidence. If they can scare you bad enough to NOT do it? they figure they have accomplished their goal.
 
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Torino

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It is indeed a shaming tactic, but there is some truth behind it. People will resist this, but men and women are not the same, we are not equal. If you do some research, the biggest indicator of whether a marriage is going to end in divorce or not is how many partners the FEMALE has had before the marriage.

"If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again? Would not the land be completely defiled?" - Jeremiah 3:1b

That verse is one of several examples the Bible makes comparing men to sowers of seed, and the woman to the ground the seed goes into.

It's actually pretty literal. Research microchimerism and telegony. You will see that the seminal fluids of men contain DNA in it, and when women have casual sex with men, the DNA of these men gets into the woman's blood stream and becomes a part of her body, permanently. One flesh, right? Furthermore, when she finally has children, her children even carry traits and dna from her previous partners even though it was her current man who sired the children. This is why it is called "adultery" when the married woman is with a man who is not her husband, the land is being polluted, adulterated. It's not reversable, so I'd definitely say the woman is losing pieces of herself through casual sex.
 
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Solomons Porch

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It's actually pretty literal. Research microchimerism and telegony. You will see that the seminal fluids of men contain DNA in it, and when women have casual sex with men, the DNA of these men gets into the woman's blood stream and becomes a part of her body, permanently. One flesh, right? Furthermore, when she finally has children, her children even carry traits and dna from her previous partners even though it was her current man who sired the children. This is why it is called "adultery" when the married woman is with a man who is not her husband, the land is being polluted, adulterated. It's not reversable, so I'd definitely say the woman is losing pieces of herself through casual sex.
interesting
 
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Tetra

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I realize that. I'm a bit older here, and in my generation there was WAY more focus on girls. They do focus on boys as well. Yet, your piece of paper example? It's the same thing.

I don't think they have evidence. If they can scare you bad enough to NOT do it? they figure they have accomplished their goal.
Well my paper example regarding why boys don't hold the paper, isn't about shame for the boys. It's more because Christians culturally think it's the boys who take sex from the girls. Women are for men, not vice versa, hence why boys will never hold the piece of paper... I don't agree with this, and I think it's disgusting... but it's certainly been a cultural observance.

Look what @Torino just wrote above:
That verse is one of several examples the Bible makes comparing men to sowers of seed, and the woman to the ground the seed goes into.
 
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Tetra

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It is indeed a shaming tactic, but there is some truth behind it. People will resist this, but men and women are not the same, we are not equal. If you do some research, the biggest indicator of whether a marriage is going to end in divorce or not is how many partners the FEMALE has had before the marriage.

"If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again? Would not the land be completely defiled?" - Jeremiah 3:1b

That verse is one of several examples the Bible makes comparing men to sowers of seed, and the woman to the ground the seed goes into.

It's actually pretty literal. Research microchimerism and telegony. You will see that the seminal fluids of men contain DNA in it, and when women have casual sex with men, the DNA of these men gets into the woman's blood stream and becomes a part of her body, permanently. One flesh, right? Furthermore, when she finally has children, her children even carry traits and dna from her previous partners even though it was her current man who sired the children. This is why it is called "adultery" when the married woman is with a man who is not her husband, the land is being polluted, adulterated. It's not reversable, so I'd definitely say the woman is losing pieces of herself through casual sex.
Your analogy doesn't make sense... assuming it was true, technically she'd be gaining pieces of men, not "losing" herself.

Also, telegony isn't a fact, it's a theory that most disagree with.
 
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HannahT

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It is indeed a shaming tactic, but there is some truth behind it. People will resist this, but men and women are not the same, we are not equal. If you do some research, the biggest indicator of whether a marriage is going to end in divorce or not is how many partners the FEMALE has had before the marriage.

"If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again? Would not the land be completely defiled?" - Jeremiah 3:1a

That verse is one of several examples the Bible makes comparing men to sowers of seed, and the woman to the ground the seed goes into.

I get that. Yet, remember once the woman was widowed? She was encouraged to remarry. I doubt microchimerism and telegony had much to do with it during this period of history.

Chastity is a virtue. It's a virtue for both spouses. That's why I say there is some truth there.

Besides in Jewish society the husband was to give his wife the 'get' - which is the jewish way of divorce. If he refused to give her the 'get' - she was considered a chained woman. It was culturally frowned upon to married at that point, and children from those future husbands were considered illegitimate. If gave his wife the 'get' she was free to remarry, and she and her future offspring were not defiled.

Interesting history to read up on as well! If the man decided to be a jerk in that part of history? They pressured him to do this, and at times they would use physical threats, etc. to get him to compile. Rabbi's felt it was the just thing to do.

Sadly, if you husband went off to war and got killed? She was chained to him forever, unless there was evidence of his death. At times that wasn't always possible. So, she remained unmarried for the rest of her life.
 
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I was having a conversation with my wife about an experience she had in youth group as a young lady. This activity in youth groups was all the rage in the early 90's.

She said the youth pastor would have the girls hold a piece of paper while boys, one by one, would come up and rip a piece off (odd how the boys don't hold the paper).

The youth pastor would then claim that by having sex, girls lose a "piece of themselves". Like, how each boy owned a piece of the paper.

Okay, not only is this story so freaking disturbing and disgusting to me, if it was my daughter that this happened to in the youth group, I can't image how I'd react.

Where the heck is this in the Bible??
This activity had good intention perhaps. For boys to think twice before having pre-marital sex. For boys to respect girls more. To discourage promiscuity.
But in reality, I think it may have disastrous consequences. For both girls and boys to develop a guilt/shame about sex.
 
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HannahT

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Well my paper example regarding why boys don't hold the paper, isn't about shame for the boys. It's more because Christians culturally think it's the boys who take sex from the girls. Women are for men, not vice versa, hence why boys will never hold the piece of paper... I don't agree with this, and I think it's disgusting... but it's certainly been a cultural observance.

This is TRUE for this time in history, but not in the past - the Jewish culture in which the bible was written.

The bible states - OT - rights to a married woman. One of those rights were sexual, because offspring gave her security. For example, if the man took at second wife? He could not neglect his first with food, shelter, clothing and sex. Matter of fact he could get in HOT water with the Rabbi's if he didn't give it to her often enough.

lol Times have changed huh?

Your are correct. It was shame for the girls - the paper example. They do have tactics for boys as well is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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Noscentia

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Well my paper example regarding why boys don't hold the paper, isn't about shame for the boys. It's more because Christians culturally think it's the boys who take sex from the girls. Women are for men, not vice versa, hence why boys will never hold the piece of paper... I don't agree with this, and I think it's disgusting... but it's certainly been a cultural observance.

Look what @Torino just wrote above:
I do think this exercise was somewhat poorly thought out. Forcing shame on people really isn't the point, you can't scare people into genuine faith, faith is a gift and with faith naturally comes shame at disobeying our creator. As a teaching exercise it is sorely lacking. In the first place, it definitely applies every bit as much to the man as it does to the woman. Adultery is adultery and fornication is fornication regardless of who's committing it and in that sense everyone loses. What it should be about is how indulging in sin gives us up more to the world and in doing so takes us further away from God. It's natural to expect we'd feel shame in doing this if we're truly repentant. I can understand, of course, why parents might feel uncomfortable having this subject taught outside the home.

That said, I was wondering about how you feel about the inerrancy of the Bible. Do you believe it's entirely of God or do you think parts of it (such as what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11:9 "for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.") is simply cultural and doesn't apply to us?
 
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Torino

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