Setting it Straight

Loveaboveall · Nov 15, 2007

StormyOne said:
We don't need another MLK or more Bill Cosby's, we need people to use their brains and stop waiting to be "led" somewhere.... likewise it would be nice if the media or whomever would stop telling the black community who it's leaders are..... or are not.....

I used the term "leader" loosely... Maybe to say "influential people" that speak for a certain group of people would be better. Sharpton and Jackson and the type speak for the black community whether you want them to or not. They may not express what you believe but that does not matter to them and the problem is they are viewed as "official" spokesmen for the black community. How did they get to this position? I don't really know... But this whole Jena 6 fiasco is proof that they still have a very large influence, maybe more than you would like.

StormyOne · Nov 15, 2007

Loveaboveall said:
I used the term "leader" loosely... Maybe to say "influential people" that speak for a certain group of people would be better. Sharpton and Jackson and the type speak for the black community whether you want them to or not. They may not express what you believe but that does not matter to them and the problem is they are viewed as "official" spokesmen for the black community. How did they get to this position? I don't really know... But this whole Jena 6 fiasco is proof that they still have a very large influence, maybe more than you would like.

they speak for some in the black community..... they were playing catch up with the Jena 6 thing... so they are not at the forefront necessarily, but they can be opportunists...

LightWorker1967 · Nov 16, 2007

Two weeks ago, a woman walked up to me – it was Dr. Edith Irby Jones. The first African American student to attend the University of Arkansas School of Medicine (1948). IN 1948!!!! She later went on to Baylor.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/changingthefaceofmedicine/physicians/biography_175.html

Her story is phenomenal. Dr. Jones is phenomenal. Meeting her was phenomenal.

Dr. Jones told me her tuition for medical school was paid via a "nickels & dimes" campaign across the state of Arkansas. She worked hard, had a lot of help, and was incredibly lucky. And a few other things to tip the scale. It ALL had to line up – but for almost everyone else with similar dreams, it didn't.

Now to this thread . . .

Suggesting the playing field is even close to level NOW for African Americans is delusional. And pointing out, as a deflection strategy, that other groups of people are also disadvantaged – that's ridiculous. And anecdotal evidence, "success stories" (like Dr. Jones), to make it OK?

It's possible to win the lottery – but it's not likely.

And citing the fact that some people in the black community are profiting from an "inequality platform" – sheesh - this relates to the broader issue in what way? That's like citing insurance fraud to argue for or against the merit of a risk pool. Actually, it's not even THAT good.

Having any conversation in this forum – no matter what your perspective – and then not DOING something to help out, is impotent.

Let's do something to help out.

StormyOne · Nov 16, 2007

LightWorker1967 said:
Two weeks ago, a woman walked up to me it was Dr. Edith Irby Jones. The first African American student to attend the University of Arkansas School of Medicine (1948). IN 1948!!!! She later went on to Baylor.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/changingthefaceofmedicine/physicians/biography_175.html

Her story is phenomenal. Dr. Jones is phenomenal. Meeting her was phenomenal.

Dr. Jones told me her tuition for medical school was paid via a "nickels & dimes" campaign across the state of Arkansas. She worked hard, had a lot of help, and was incredibly lucky. And a few other things to tip the scale. It ALL had to line up but for almost everyone else with similar dreams, it didn't.

Now to this thread . . .

Suggesting the playing field is even close to level NOW for African Americans is delusional. And pointing out, as a deflection strategy, that other groups of people are also disadvantaged that's ridiculous. And anecdotal evidence, "success stories" (like Dr. Jones), to make it OK?

It's possible to win the lottery but it's not likely.

And citing the fact that some people in the black community are profiting from an "inequality platform" sheesh - this relates to the broader issue in what way? That's like citing insurance fraud to argue for or against the merit of a risk pool. Actually, it's not even THAT good.

Having any conversation in this forum no matter what your perspective and then not DOING something to help out, is impotent.

Let's do something to help out.

good points....

moicherie · Nov 16, 2007

LightWorker1967 said:
Two weeks ago, a woman walked up to me – it was Dr. Edith Irby Jones. The first African American student to attend the University of Arkansas School of Medicine (1948). IN 1948!!!! She later went on to Baylor.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/changingthefaceofmedicine/physicians/biography_175.html

Her story is phenomenal. Dr. Jones is phenomenal. Meeting her was phenomenal.

Dr. Jones told me her tuition for medical school was paid via a "nickels & dimes" campaign across the state of Arkansas. She worked hard, had a lot of help, and was incredibly lucky. And a few other things to tip the scale. It ALL had to line up – but for almost everyone else with similar dreams, it didn't.

Now to this thread . . .

Suggesting the playing field is even close to level NOW for African Americans is delusional. And pointing out, as a deflection strategy, that other groups of people are also disadvantaged – that's ridiculous. And anecdotal evidence, "success stories" (like Dr. Jones), to make it OK?

It's possible to win the lottery – but it's not likely.

And citing the fact that some people in the black community are profiting from an "inequality platform" – sheesh - this relates to the broader issue in what way? That's like citing insurance fraud to argue for or against the merit of a risk pool. Actually, it's not even THAT good.

Having any conversation in this forum – no matter what your perspective – and then not DOING something to help out, is impotent.

Let's do something to help out.

Amen!

honorthesabbath · Nov 16, 2007

May I suggest this article for enlightenment.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Murray/randy2.htm

And this one.....

http://www.newswithviews.com/Roberts/carey199.htm

StormyOne · Nov 16, 2007

honorthesabbath said:
May I suggest this article for enlightenment.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Murray/randy2.htm

And this one.....

http://www.newswithviews.com/Roberts/carey199.htm

typical and to be expected..... first problem..... first article contains the following:

About 150 years ago, nearly 80% of Americans were self-employed. Today that figure is about 10%. About 150 years ago, over 85% of Americans were educated at home or in one-room, church-affiliated, community schoolhouses, and America’s literacy rate was over 95%. Today, 85% of American children are “schooled” [as opposed to educated] in public schools, and barely 60% of Americans can be called literate. Do you see a pattern here?

150 yrs ago places us in 1857. It was against the law to teach black people to read or write... those blacks in the south were not self-employed..... you are right though Honor, what you have presented as enlightenment has been enlightening indeed.....

honorthesabbath · Nov 16, 2007

StormyOne said:
typical and to be expected..... first problem..... first article contains the following:

150 yrs ago places us in 1857. It was against the law to teach black people to read or write... those blacks in the south were not self-employed..... you are right though Honor, what you have presented as enlightenment has been enlightening indeed.....

Ahh Stormy--who is talking about the blacks here exclusively? Not I sir.

My how you read things into the posts I write. Indeed THAT IS enlightening. Strange what you gleaned from that article that I didn't.
Show me ONE sentence were blacks are mentioned. This article is not about blacks--but about liberal thinking and dumbing down of America. And the corporate agenda. Sheesh Stormy!

StormyOne · Nov 16, 2007

honorthesabbath said:
Ahh Stormy--who is talking about the blacks here exclusively? Not I sir.

My how you read things into the posts I write. Indeed THAT IS enlightening. Strange what you gleaned from that article that I didn't.
Show me ONE sentence were blacks are mentioned. This article is not about blacks--but about liberal thinking and dumbing down of America. And the corporate agenda. Sheesh Stormy!

you are right the article was not about blacks because 150 yrs ago most blacks were not being educated nor were they in business for themselves.....

You didn't see it for obvious reasons.... Honor I have read your posts for a while now, and its obvious what your position is in the area of politics and religion... I don't expect you will "see it," or "get it" ever....

tall73 · Nov 16, 2007

honorthesabbath said:
Ahh Stormy--who is talking about the blacks here exclusively? Not I sir.

I think he is asking whether the statistics are reliable given the block of slaves who were neither educated nor self-employed.

But there is a bigger issue here that he neglects. The mechanization of farming is what eliminated most of those self-employment opportunities, and continues to today. The family farmer is fading. Only those who are extremely efficient survive, and they must farm more acres. It is not about being smarter. If anything small farmers used to be able to be "dumb and hard workers" and make it in the days when there was not GPS system in the Combine and selling grain was less about world markets.

Now is that directly related to the education system? Only in the sense that those smart people found more efficient ways to make machinery. That machinery then became in high demand and high cost. Small operations were at a disadvantage, etc.

Societal shifts are seldom due to just one factor.

Now at the same time you do have the Wal-Marts of the world eating up the small businesses. Main Street USA no longer has two shoe shops, a dress shop etc. Or if they do they cater to a small audience.

But is that related to education? And do republicans really want to trim back the Wal-Marts of the world? He talks about the super rich--but didn't they start as business people? Does he really want businesses? Or just those that stay small? What system does he put in place to prevent the small business owner from becoming the next super-rich manipulator?

On the entertainment front I have some agreement with him. But the internet has not just pushed headlines but has given opportunity to anyone to get their view out. That is not restrictive, it is breaking old restrictions and making more opportunities for news to get out. The irony is that it also made it possible for me to even hear of this guy.

In any case, I am republican myself. But I don't agree that the education agenda is the main factor here.

JonMiller · Nov 16, 2007

The superrich are mostly republicans, and the republicans cater to them more than the democrats.

JM

moicherie · Nov 16, 2007

Are a lot of Adventists republicans? If so why is that?

StormyOne · Nov 16, 2007

moicherie said:
Are a lot of Adventists republicans? If so why is that?

perhaps the issue is not one of color but one of politics?

Loveaboveall · Nov 16, 2007

LightWorker1967 said:
Suggesting the playing field is even close to level NOW for African Americans is delusional. And pointing out, as a deflection strategy, that other groups of people are also disadvantaged that's ridiculous. And anecdotal evidence, "success stories" (like Dr. Jones), to make it OK?

It's possible to win the lottery but it's not likely.

I am going to have to disagree with you here... at least to a large degree. Please explain to me when there is free education through high school and student loans for anyone who wants to apply for college that the playing field is not equal? In fact, there isn't a child out there that cannot go to college if they so desire to... Unless they really do have an IQ of 80 and do not have the "smarts" to make the grades. But I would dare say they are very, very few and far between.

Have you read the story of Ben Carson? Did all the stars line up for him? possibly.. but I believe it wasn't the "stars" as much as a dedicated mother. It all starts in the home and unfortunately for many black youth there is no home to speak of. Is this racism, the fault of so called white male dominance? or is this the fault of a culture that promotes promiscuity and irresponsiblity on the part of men to take care of their family? (I am not necessarily saying black culture, but inner city culture which is dominated by blacks but for any caucasians living there it would also apply)

mva1985 · Nov 16, 2007

Loveaboveall said:
I am going to have to disagree with you here... at least to a large degree. Please explain to me when there is free education through high school and student loans for anyone who wants to apply for college that the playing field is not equal? In fact, there isn't a child out there that cannot go to college if they so desire to... Unless they really do have an IQ of 80 and do not have the "smarts" to make the grades. But I would dare say they are very, very few and far between.

Have you read the story of Ben Carson? Did all the stars line up for him? possibly.. but I believe it wasn't the "stars" as much as a dedicated mother. It all starts in the home and unfortunately for many black youth there is no home to speak of. Is this racism, the fault of so called white male dominance? or is this the fault of a culture that promotes promiscuity and irresponsiblity on the part of men to take care of their family? (I am not necessarily saying black culture, but inner city culture which is dominated by blacks but for any caucasians living there it would also apply)

I think you have made some good points.

StormyOne · Nov 16, 2007

Loveaboveall said:
I am going to have to disagree with you here... at least to a large degree. Please explain to me when there is free education through high school and student loans for anyone who wants to apply for college that the playing field is not equal? In fact, there isn't a child out there that cannot go to college if they so desire to... Unless they really do have an IQ of 80 and do not have the "smarts" to make the grades. But I would dare say they are very, very few and far between.

Have you read the story of Ben Carson? Did all the stars line up for him? possibly.. but I believe it wasn't the "stars" as much as a dedicated mother. It all starts in the home and unfortunately for many black youth there is no home to speak of. Is this racism, the fault of so called white male dominance? or is this the fault of a culture that promotes promiscuity and irresponsiblity on the part of men to take care of their family? (I am not necessarily saying black culture, but inner city culture which is dominated by blacks but for any caucasians living there it would also apply)

the free public school in an urban area is not the same as the free public school in a suburban area... getting a free education and being educated are two completely different things, not to mention the ability to get in and finish college...

Interesting comments unfortunately they are not capturing the complete picture... For every Ben Carson that makes it there are dozens of others who never make it out... however there seems to be this idea that if one can do it, "they all can do it."

While I understand what you are saying, it is not as simple as you portray it..... IMO....

Sophia7 · Nov 16, 2007

moicherie said:
Are a lot of Adventists republicans? If so why is that?

No, I don't think so, at least not most of the Adventists that I've come in contact with. Many Traditional Adventists vote for Democrats because they tend to be against "legislating morality." Many of them would not vote for Republican candidates, especially conservative Christians, for fear that they would push for Sunday legislation and usher in the end-time persecution. Because anyone who wants to make abortion and gay marriage illegal obviously also wants to take away the religious freedom of Adventists.

mva1985 · Nov 16, 2007

Sophia7 said:
No, I don't think so, at least not most of the Adventists that I've come in contact with. Many Traditional Adventists vote for Democrats because they tend to be against "legislating morality." Many of them would not vote for Republican candidates, especially conservative Christians, for fear that they would push for Sunday legislation and usher in the end-time persecution. Because anyone who wants to make abortion and gay marriage illegal obviously also wants to take away the religious freedom of Adventists.

It has always been my impression that Republicans prize religious freedom more so then the Democrats. Eventually, though I believe they will combine forces to initiate the national Sunday law under the veil of family values .

Sophia7 · Nov 16, 2007

StormyOne said:
the free public school in an urban area is not the same as the free public school in a suburban area... getting a free education and being educated are two completely different things, not to mention the ability to get in and finish college...

Interesting comments unfortunately they are not capturing the complete picture... For every Ben Carson that makes it there are dozens of others who never make it out... however there seems to be this idea that if one can do it, "they all can do it."

While I understand what you are saying, it is not as simple as you portray it..... IMO....

We're living in a big city now. The public schools in the suburbs are good. The public schools in the inner city are terrible and are not even fully accredited anymore because they're so bad. Yes, there is a difference. Not all public education is equal.

LightWorker1967 · Nov 16, 2007

Loveaboveall said:
I am going to have to disagree with you here... at least to a large degree. Please explain to me when there is free education through high school and student loans for anyone who wants to apply for college that the playing field is not equal? In fact, there isn't a child out there that cannot go to college if they so desire to... Unless they really do have an IQ of 80 and do not have the "smarts" to make the grades. But I would dare say they are very, very few and far between.

Have you read the story of Ben Carson? Did all the stars line up for him? possibly.. but I believe it wasn't the "stars" as much as a dedicated mother. It all starts in the home and unfortunately for many black youth there is no home to speak of. Is this racism, the fault of so called white male dominance? or is this the fault of a culture that promotes promiscuity and irresponsiblity on the part of men to take care of their family? (I am not necessarily saying black culture, but inner city culture which is dominated by blacks but for any caucasians living there it would also apply)

Yes – I know the story of Ben Carson. An amazing man.

But if you don't see how slavery is intimately connected - now - to the psychosocial issues in black America, I'm not sure where we can go with the conversation. And to suggest that it's because of a "culture that promotes promiscuity and irresponsibility" – wow. I wonder WHY there is such a tendency?

Do you think the dysfunction in Native American communities might also be connected to the violence acted upon them – what David Stannard calls the American Holocaust?

It's not "all better now." Equal societal structures don't make for equal opportunity just yet. The wounds run deep and will affect many more generations.

I do acknowledge it is complex and agree that people have to ultimately be accountable for their own choices.

Loveaboveall (great name), I appreciate your response and don't want you to feel that I'm passing judgment on you. This is one of the issues where I personally get tripped because it's so heartbreaking.

Blessings for the Sabbath!

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